Luchaundead Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Is there a glaring lack of CZW wrestlers I can easily understand that it's not a goldmine of fantastic wrestling but, looking through the nominations and not seeing Blk Jeez makes me wonder if CZW workers are under represented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Is Blk Jeez really thought of as a strong candidate for something like this even among CZW fans? I have friends who go to every CZW show, and work and/or have worked with the promotion over the years - Jeez is a name that never really comes up when CZW is discussed with them. What CZW guys haven't been nominated who you would consider? Does Gulak have a thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Trent Acid, Nick Gage, Ruckus, Kingston, Drake Younger, Masada, and Zandig for impact/influence. If you combine blk out run Fabian and CZW champ Blk Jeez he had a strong case for being in the #80-95 range sorry your friends might be sensitive crackers, but seriously I think some of these death match adjacent guys might be getting over looked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I personally wouldn't come close to voting for any of these guys. But if you think Blk Jeez is someone who you could vote for you should just nominate him. It's hard to say if CZW is being underrepresented here, because I feel like among almost any group of hardcore wrestling fans (I don't mean fans of hardcore wrestling) CZW is not considered somewhere where many/any all time greats worked. If no CZW guy gets votes, is CZW underrepresented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Define a "strong case" for Blk Jeez as he probably isn't a a Top 100 for any of the past years, And I only say past few years because that's all I can be 100% sure of. I'm not saying I'm doubting he was ever a good wrestler but I've only seen mediocre at absolute best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Jeez and Eddie Kingston aren't touching my Top 500. Eric Bischoff would probably make my list before those two. Does CZW actually add to anyone's case? Jay & Mark Briscoe, maybe? Besides the blowoff match with Kingston, does Hero have anything beneficial in CZW? I can understand Trent Acid support, if you're really high on that time period, but other than that, I really don't think CZW has added to anyone's case. Drake Younger would be a total vanity pick for me in like a Top 200, and even then, that argument would be made off of his PWG/socal indie run, not CZW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Does Hero's work in the ROH-CZW feud count? Necro probably did some stuff to add to his case. Maybe Super Dragon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Trent Acid, Nick Gage, Ruckus, Kingston, Drake Younger, Masada, and Zandig for impact/influence. If you combine blk out run Fabian and CZW champ Blk Jeez he had a strong case for being in the #80-95 range sorry your friends might be sensitive crackers, but seriously I think some of these death match adjacent guys might be getting over looked. Jesus LOLOLOL, lets nominate Duane Gill while we're at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Which specifically of those nine guys' names do you object to being on the list, Jaze? And what counts as "a CZW guy"? As mentioned, we've already got nominations for several dudes who've spent a lot of time working there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 By strong case I mean he has always had very strong character work, he gets good heat, and has been consistently solid in-ring for years. TBH I don't know if I would vote for him or any of the others myself but my point is more that guys who had similar careers in the 70s or 80s would be nominated for sure. Tully Blanchard, Magnum TA, The Genius, Raven, and even Buddy Landell all have similar cases, my point is not to say BLK Jeez is as good or better than any of them just that they all come across as instant nominees while more modern workers seem to be over looked especially if they work primarily in unheralded promotion. And I mean The Barbarian is nominated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Well The Barbarian is a better wrestler than Blk Jeez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 By strong case I mean he has always had very strong character work, he gets good heat, and has been consistently solid in-ring for years. TBH I don't know if I would vote for him or any of the others myself but my point is more that guys who had similar careers in the 70s or 80s would be nominated for sure. Tully Blanchard, Magnum TA, The Genius, Raven, and even Buddy Landell all have similar cases, my point is not to say BLK Jeez is as good or better than any of them just that they all come across as instant nominees while more modern workers seem to be over looked especially if they work primarily in unheralded promotion. And I mean The Barbarian is nominated. No one has an automatic nomination. That said anyone can be nominated. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I'm unsure why CZW would be the promotion to focus on here. Compare CZW to wrestling in Cornelia, Georgia for example. Wildside or Anarchy ran out of the Church, the majority of that time with a weekly t.v. presence, for over 15 years. Guys like Slim J, Tank, Adam Jacobs, Iceberg, Shaun Tempers, and Ace Rockwell had big runs there and went on to have very solid runs elsewhere. Some of those guys have had brilliant years both inside and outside of Cornelia. None of them is nominated. I'm not saying they are better or worse picks than Matt Tremont or Masada or Jeez or whoever, but my point is that there are a lot of guys who worked out of that hub who had good heat, played their roles well and were solid or better in the ring for years. But no one has nominated them presumably because no one is strongly considering them and/or no one remembers them at all. I don't think any of that is comparable to the 80's names mentioned. Those guys were national stars, who worked major shows. For better or worse their profile is bigger. It's not about when they worked, it's about where they worked and the shape of the wrestling world at the time they were stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted February 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I my reason to picking CZW is because they have consistently been in a #5-7 range of promotion in both exposure and name recognition yet their reputations is actually more of a hindrance to workers that gained notoriety while working there, I would also argue that Wildside and Anarchy never had the same national or international presence. The profile was bigger because the business was bigger I really think more people need to judge draw and start power based on scale for the time period the worker was in. Wrestlers from the 80s also have the benefit of people re-watching then having a chance to more fully process the work and nostalgia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Would have rather we picked Chikara so we could question if Jimmy Olsen and Shane Storm deserve nominations cause I would probably pick both of them over Blk Jeez. Actually, I kind of want to nominate Jimmy Olsen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I was actually surprised to see no one has nominated Quackenbush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Exposure and name recognition in what sense? Internet fans? I'm not even trying to be a dick, nor am I trying to be dismissive. I'm all for inclusion. I'd be in favor of every person named above being nominated. But I won't be the one to do it. I'm also militantly opposed to the idea of adjusting standards down for the failures of the wrestling business as a whole. That said, I do believe in "indie draws" and I think that they are important because I've witnessed it first hand. As for CZW v. Wildside/Anarchy, I think they are fairly comparable. In some ways CZW is "bigger" or more significant (bigger internet buzz, more "name" guys have probably come through there at least in the last 10 years, iPPV presence) in other ways Wildside/Anarchy is (fifteen years with weekly tv, Southern hub that probably directly led to more guys working weekly shows that drew decent or better houses, et). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 To understand why no one is nominating CZW guys you have to compare them to other deathmatches promotions. BJW workers like Jun Kasai and Yuko Miyamoto have a much better case for top 100 inclusion than most of the CZW guys discussed so far yet no one is making a push to nominate those guys and the handful of reviews for BJW from the 2000's puro project all shit on the matches. Look at the review for Miyamoto/Sasaki scaffold from 3/07 and you can see there's still a stigma against deathmatches as just being backyarders doing stunts, and that's made it difficult for others to enjoy the deeper psychology of the matches. Even the guys who started in CZW but still somehow have managed to break that crazy backyarders stereotype and achieve fame, like Moxley, Callihan, and Younger have distanced themselves from the style and most of their fans seem to stay away from their earlier work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted February 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 CZW is known more by casual fans as well because of the popularity of death match tournaments (which can be seen as a detriment) and they have done tours with multiple companies both in America and internationally (WXW, BJW, and SMASH). Well there is no way that I can change your mind on that because we are I guess diametrically apposed in that opinion as I think that some wrestlers get more credit as a draw themselves when truly the business as a whole was hotter and had more possible reach so doesn't necessarily reflect on them but on culture at the time. Especially when "the failures of the wrestling business as a whole" can pretty easily be attributed to one man I find it quite disingenuous to say a guy like CM Punk should have his drawing power compared to Jerry Lawler because they worked with such different constants that what they do/did is barely recognizable as the same business. I don't disagree with you and clearly Wildside/Anarchy are better for the business as a whole but, both show a major blind spot in this process that I thought I could bring us to maybe lead some people to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted February 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Would have rather we picked Chikara so we could question if Jimmy Olsen and Shane Storm deserve nominations cause I would probably pick both of them over Blk Jeez. Actually, I kind of want to nominate Jimmy Olsen. I wouldn't pick Chikara because a lot of their home grown guys haven't done much as they are at times treated as interchangeable in the promotion and most of the guys that came in and made a name for themselves there went on to do the same in multiple other companies including WWE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 CZW also has a very negative reputation among large parts of the smarkiverse. Partly because of the deathmatch shit, partly because Botchamania has turned them into a running joke (and done so by nothing more than showing their own footage of bad wrestling). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Does this negative stigma effect anyone posting in this thread, people that will probably be voting? My issue with coming to terms with CZW potentially getting a raw deal here is that things you point to with mattering don't matter as much for me. The "most of the guys that came in and made a name for themselves there went on to do the same in multiple other companies including WWE" line comes off awkward as typically when you're good in this day and age you go other places. At least Chikara attempts to exist in its own bubble because of the booker that there is a better reason for why the good wrestlers never truly break out. Jimmy Olsen was a quality babyface in Chikara under the Equinox gimmick but was also a tremendous heel in the CNY/UNY region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted February 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 See that's one of the issues I was trying to point out in my ackward statement I was unaware Equinox and Jimmy Olsen were the same guy stuff like that makes it hard for me to always know which Chikara home grown guys are in which gimmick at certain times thus making it hard to say over time who stands out as consistently performing at a high level so, the others who I said did well in other promotions what I mean to say is they stand out because they tend to then use the same gimmick adding up a easily perceived body of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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