Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only

Thoughts on Wrestlemania XV-XX


Guest Bruiser Chong

Recommended Posts

Guest Bruiser Chong

Wrestlemania XV: Almost entirely forgettable. I vaguely remember the main event and Boss Man get lynched from the HIAC. Other than that, I can't remember a thing outside of the tag team battle royal that was one of the worst ideas for a match I've seen in Wrestlemania history. What sense does it make on the biggest show to have the tag team champs defend against two guys who are paired together because they won a battle royal?

 

Wrestlemania 2000: I hate this show. I mean, I really hate it. Maybe it was because I sat through eight hours of Wrestlemania footage via the Wrestlemania All-Day-Long special that ran from noon until the beginning of the show. Or maybe it's because nothing stood out or has held up since 2000. The complete absence of a singles match always bothered me; having the first several matches on the card be of quasi-tag teams also irked me.

 

The tag team ladder match wowed me, but it would be done better months later. The hardcore battle royal wore thin after a few minutes and displayed what a joke the belt really was. And let's not forget a McMahon in every corner! Just what we want on the biggest show of the year. What a crock of shit. And to make matters worse, they brought Foley out of retirement after a month - making him look like a liar in the process - only to have him play no role in the finish. This had me questioning why they didn't just keep it Rock vs. HHH like it was originally supposed to be. HHH walking out with the belt needs to explanation.

 

Wrestlemania X-7: Totally redeemed the prior year's edition. From top-to-bottom, this is an excellent card. I'm not a fan of all of it, but this is one of the few Manias of recent years I can watch most of the matches. A short, but hot opener; a fun hardcore title match; a solid mat-based match; an innovative, if not completely spot-infested TLC; good old nostalgia, and of course, a memorable main event.

 

There are definitely flaws throughout the card, but the action, based on that night, is worth multiple viewings. Just a shame that everything started to go wrong after this show.

 

Wrestlemania X-8: A three-hour+ edition of RAW. Just a disapointing show that made me wake up and realize that the company was in trouble creatively. When shampoo and dogs are key elements in the set-up for matche son the card, things are in trouble. The crowd cheering for Hogan was fun, but the match was uninteresting. Most matches were abbreviated and the main event featured a face nobody wanted to see win, but knew he was going to win, walk out with the belt.

 

Wrestlemania XIX: Lots of junk nestled in among some good stuff. I honestly don't remember much, except Taker looking like a god in a handicap match and the Cat Fight girls getting more time than Matt and Rey. The Shawn/Jericho match was classic until the finish. HHH/Book left a bad taste in my mouth. Angle/Brock was excellent until the Next Big Thing landed on his head.

 

Wrestlemania XX: I thought this was more bloated than Wrestlemania IV. Where I watched it could've played a role in why I got so impatient, but this was such a letdown all things considered. No way they could live up to the ungodly expectations going in, but man, I was left feeling completely underwhelmed. People were so happy to see Eddie and Benoit as champions, but at the risk of sounding cocky, I never believed we were witnessing a turning point for the company. It was a nice way to end the night, but bittersweet, since I knew it was only temporary. But at least it meant I got to get off my ass after over four hours. That was a plus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Some Guy

15 - BUTTERBEAN~! Other than the KO this show gets no love from me. Austin/Rock is pretty good but their later stuff is way better as Austin settled in to his new style and Rock improved by leaps and bounds in 2000.

 

16 - I like the Angle/Benoit/Jericho match and the Hardcore battle royal (I thought it was fun and still watch it every now and again). The ME dragged and HHH being the second heel to win the ME of a WM (Yokozuna was the first. He beat Bret for the title in the ME of WM 9. The Hogan thing was not an advertised match and as such not a "main event") was a let down for the show, yet a smart move by the company.

 

17 - I love this show. This is the best WM top to bottom. Austin/Rock (Although the heel turn the dumbest move WWF would make until the INvasion blunder a few months later), Angle/Benoit, TLC 2, Taker/HHH, Gimmick Battle Royal, etc... This is how every WM card should be built. A guarnteed great ME, a classic wrestling match, a crazy spot fest, and some comic relief. Something for everyone.

 

18 - Other than Rock/Hogan, Austin/Hall, and HHH/Jericho I can't really remember the rest of the card. Rock/Hogan was a total mark out moment for me. I saw this show live and everybody with me was trying their hardest not have a huge shit eating grin on their face during this match so they wouldn't look like dorks.

 

19 - I really like Shawn/Jericho. Angle/Brock is good. HHH killing Booker was bad.

 

20 - Good show. Angle/Eddy and the 3 Way carried it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wrestlemania XV - horrid show. One of the worst overall. No redeemable matches.

 

Wrestlemania 2000 - weak show. One match (TLC 1) is worth watching. ME was an example of everything wrong with the company's booking plans. Foley coming out of retirement earns this show a big black eye.

 

Wrestlemania X-7 - Best Wrestlemania. Four matches (Angle/Benoit, TLC 2, Undertaker/HHH & Austin/Rock) are worth watching. The Hardcore match is a crazy romp that has it's entertaing moments. The McMahon/McMahon match also has its perversely entertaining moments. Austin heel turn knocks some shit on this shows shiny shoes.

 

Wrestlemania X-8 - lame show. One match (Hogan/Rock) is worth watching highlights of. Actual match in full is horrid. One match (HHH/Jericho) is actually worth watching in full.

 

Wrestlemania XIX - very lame show. One match (HBK/Jericho) is worth watching. Wrong finish though.

 

Wrestlemania XX - weak show. Two matches (Eddy/Angle, Benoit/HHH/HBK) are worth watching. Goldberg/Lesnar is worth watching to see for train wreck appeal. Terrible match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

XV - Overbooked crap with an HHH heel turn that didn't really do anything to catapult him. X-Pac/Shane and Austin/Rock were both called great matches at the time, and this is probably the *worst* Austin/Rock match ever and Shane would have a better overbooked melodrama with Test at Summerslam. Notice I didn't call it a match. Too many swerves in the booking building up the show, just to make Vince Russo seem clever.

 

2000 - In a great time period for the WWF, a bad show with no really good matches to speak of. It bothers me that there were no one-on-one matches. They ran HHH/Rock and Benoit/Jericho for the next two months on PPV, so I do understand the frame of mind behind not booking them here, but Mania should have an epic feel, and this was just all wrong because they were trying too hard to get everyone on the show. Foley didn't need to come back. Show didn't need to main event. Benoit and Jericho both jobbing once to each other while Angle lost both of his belts is the most evenly Stephenly booked match of all time, to a point where no one was elevated and it was ridiculous. The hardcore battle royal is fun, as is the spotfest with the Hardyz, E & C & Dudleyz, but nothing was here that we wouldn't see done better later.

 

X-7 - I was there live! Woohoo! Main event is the best WM main event of all time and the rest of the card is fun-filled too, even if Austin/Rock is the only match that still looks like a great match now. Sadly, when I think of this show, I think more of how everything went to Hell after it was over than anything else.

 

X-8 - Hogan/Rock is a nice match, HHH/Jericho is an underrated match -- the rest of the show is so forgettable because this was around the time Vince declared that he no longer wanted to waste his time coming up with storylines for midcarders. The hardcore thing was so old and driven into the ground by this point, and they ran it all. night. long.

 

XIX - In terms of good matches, this is in the upper echelon of Wrestlemanias, but I hate this show for the long-term implications. Watching Chris Jericho and Booker T officially become irrelevant while unable to do anything but sit back and take it is a little disheartening. Seriously, they've both been unable to reclaim their glory days since then, and I trace it back to this show. Austin/Rock was a nice passing of the torch that came years too late, as Rock wasn't even around enough anymore for it to mean anything. They put heels over in the big matches all night so Goldberg would have opponents, but the heel only should have gone over in one match (HBK/Y2J), and that's the one match where the face went over. A total mess.

 

XX - The show had tremendous hype and if it was an hour shorter, it be remembered more fondly, because it largely delivered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wrestlemania XV- This show actually made me watch wrestling on tv again. Since '98, I always tried to catch Wrestlemania. I had stopped watching wrestling for three months when I ordered Mania. The last show I watched prior to this was Starrcade 98. For the smart fan, this show sucked. For someone looking for a reason to watch wresling again, it did its job.I watched Austin-Rock a few months back and I still enjoy it. I can't even remember the rest of the card.

 

Wrestlemania 2000- History shows that this is a bad card. I haven't seen it since it aired so I can't call it. At the time, I was actually just a few months into being on the internet and I enjoyed the hell out of it. I do think the ladder match was better than the subsequent TLC matches (except 3) and maybe I feel that way because it was the first time I saw that kind of reckless behavior in the ring. Since then, I have seen so much shit that this seems lame. I remember being disappointed with the 3-way even though people still rave about that match.

 

Wrestlemania X7 - This is not a great top-to-bottom show. The main event rules it. The Benoit-Angle match was ok. I could do without the rest. The hardcoe match was crap. Eddie fighting Test was a valiant effort but one I never need to see again. Nostalgia for the Legends battle royale but zero redeeming qualities. HHH-Taker is the most overrated match ever... I think. Just horrible, horrible match. Wait, I spoke too soon... TLC2 was the most overrated match ever. An overbooked spotfest whose appeal had already dissolved. Jericho-Regal was sad to watch because I expected so much more.

 

Wrestlemania X8 - The first Wrestlemania I watched that I remember being disappointed with. I had also been on the internet for awhile and was completely corrupted... or enlightened. I enjoyed the atmosphere o Rock-Hogan and am still stunned with the reaction those guys recieved. During the mian event, I was too busy putting together a bench for my wife to notice. I remember the TV being deadly silent at the time. How sad is that?

 

Wrestlemania XIX - I watched this at a bar. I was inebriated so I think I enjoyed it more than I should have. Lesnar-Angle is such a medicre match that I am shocked when I hear people praise it. I still like Rock-Austin but for nostalgia purposes and not for the match quality. i'll admit it... iWas entertained by Hogan-Vince. I was also pretty gone by this ime. I think I woas hoping one of them would shoot on the other. HBK-Y2J was the best match as everyone eadily admits.

 

Wrestlemania XX - I marked out for Benoit like everyone else. I enjoyed Eddie-Angle. I enjoyed Rock and Foley. Everything else was a waste of ime. I bought the DVD on a whim and regret the decision. I should have let time pass because I can't even watch the show anymore. Maybe I'll give it some love in a few years when the rose-colored glasses come back on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WrestleMania XV - The less said, the better.

 

WrestleMania 2000 - Blah show. Liked the Triple Threat Ladder match and the Triple Threat IC-Euro match. Everything else is not mentionable, aside from the Kat being stark naked in a backstage vignette. Test/Albert-Head Cheese may be one of the worst WrestleMania matches in history.

 

WrestleMania X-7 - Still really like it, albeit not as much. The TLC II match is fun, but hasn't aged well, since there's been tons of stunt matches since then that are quite like it. Main event is GREAT up until the Vince run-in. Benoit-Angle was looking to be something incredibly different until Angle started huffing and puffing. I thought Jericho-Regal should've been given more time. Undertaker-HHH gets extremely dull once they hit the crowd. Still probably the best WrestleMania of them all.

 

WrestleMania X8 - Blah show. I still like Rock-Hogan. I thought it was very smartly worked. HHH-Jericho is fine, but I get pissed watching it, especially since HHH sold the Walls like it was a massage machine. Compare that to XX, where he sold the Crossface like he was going to die. Flair-Undertaker is a guilty pleasure, although seeing Undertaker carry Flair just shows how Flair should've packed it in a long time ago. Rest of the card is crap, aside from Scott Hall's Stunner sell.

 

WrestleMania XIX - Poorly booked show in retrospect. Mysterio, Jericho, and Booker all should've went over. Main event was doomed to die, as all the focus was on Hogan-Vince and Austin-Rock. When they had the Catfight Girls just mentioning those matches, Lesnar-Angle didn't have a chance to succeed heat-wise, which is a shame. I saw this show live at a bar, and 80% of the patrons left after Austin-Rock, which says it all right there. I really like Michaels-Jericho except for who went over, Lesnar-Angle is fine, but not great, and the last Austin-Rock match is a guilty pleasure of mine. Austin looked like shit, but Rock put on one of my favourite performances of his. Cool heels aren't necessarily a good thing, but Rock looked like he was having the time of his life around this time. Gave him an edge to his character again.

 

WrestleMania XX - The two title matches were great, Jericho-Christian was okay, and the handicap tag was decent. Everything else was filler, except the opener, where Big Show did his best to get a good match out of useless John Cena. Watching the Canadians match, it's obvious now how much Christian has turned up his game this year. Thought Rock and Flair were funny, although it's a testiment to how much Flair's fallen to a comedy worker. The sight of Benoit and Guerrero standing tall is very satisfying, although we'd hit reality several months later when the HHH push got cranked into full gear again, and Vince's JBL lovefest was also drawn into a nice diagram for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Benoit/Angle feud was super weak. Super, super, super weak considering the names involved. Like, two of the "greatest" wrestlers of all-time. The expectations were high.

 

Their X7 encounter finish left a bad taste in my mouth. Like Eddy/Rey at this last one. The match just appeared to end out of nowhere when it should have gone about 10 more minutes. Angle was badly exposed in this match though. By this point, Angle had stopped using the Northern Lights suplex and the Double Underhook Belly-to-belly suplex, and instead stocked his moveset up with "great" ways to trap someone in the Ankle Lock, which I have always considered a step backwards. Angle's mat wrestling was also shite compared to Chris freakin Benoit, who should have been outclassed but instead used a worked ground game that smoked Angle's attempts. For fucks sakes, the guy won an Olympic Gold medal and he looked lost trying to "wear down" Benoit on the ground. The selling also left a lot to be desired. Crappy selling can throw an entire match out of whack and expose the "fantasy" and ruin the mood right away.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because I watched this show with several markish fans who all shat over the match when neither guys work seemed to have any effect. That pissed the whole room off when Angle looked like he had gotten a second wind after getting worked over by Benoit. Crappy moveset, crummy selling, and poor self promotion will always be the 3 strikes I count against Angle since they are so fuckin glaring.

 

"Greatest" is a slap in the face to workers like Jumbo Tsuruta, Harley Race, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Kenta Kobashi, Jushin Liger, Nobuhiko Takada, Akira Hokuto, the Destroyer, Ric Flair and even Chris Benoit.

 

Hell, I could knock the greatest Mania X7 down by at least two matches if I felt like taking off Benoit/Angle & TLC 2 because both of those matches piss me off for how shoddy they turned out to be. Still, it's the best Mania out of the bunch up to this point.

 

If someone held a gun to my head, I'd say TLC 2 > Benoit/Angle because the TLC rematch at least got some fresh faces to interfere and nice new and old homage spots that played off the first match. There were some nice little things done in that match that walloped the Benoit and Angle transitions and exchanges on the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed on Christian. He's been the MVP for RAW so far this year.

 

 

 

I'm not sold. I'll really have to watch some of his singles matches because I have never seen a solo Christian match I have ever liked.

 

Benoit/Angle feud was super weak. Super, super, super weak considering the names involved. Like, two of the "greatest" wrestlers of all-time. The expectations were high.

Please tell me you are not saying that Angle is one of the greatest of all-time and are only repeating what the Angle fanboys have tried to sell us.

 

 

Hell, I could knock the greatest Mania X7 down by at least two matches if I felt like taking off Benoit/Angle & TLC 2 because both of those matches piss me off for how shoddy they were.

yeah, really, the show may have been a well-booked show but it just may be the most overrated show this side of Canadian Stampede.

 

If someone held a gun to my head, I'd say TLC 2 > Benoit/Angle because the TLC rematch at least got some fresh faces to interfere and nice new and old homage spots that played off the first match. There were some nice little things done in that match that walloped the Benoit and Angle transitions and exchanges on the ground.

I would hardly call the interference a plus. Also, what homage spots are you talking about? Elaborate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed on Christian. He's been the MVP for RAW so far this year.

 

 

 

I'm not sold. I'll really have to watch some of his singles matches because I have never seen a solo Christian match I have ever liked.
I'll try to do a full list in the next day or so. He's probably the most improved wrestler of the past 12 months.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't consider the interference in TLC II a detriment, for one reason, which is that everyone had someone on their side who could interfere for them. The Hardyz had Lita, E & C had Rhyno and the Dudleyz had Spike. It was natural that they'd interfere in a no-DQ match, and it also gave them more bodies to do even more spots with. If any one of those teams didn't have a third man, I would have hated it, but since they all had someone else who could step in, it was nice.

 

It's the same way in old Southern tags -- when you have someone at ringside to neutralize the heel manager, you have someone else you can do sequences with in the match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand your reasoning, even repsect it, but I have never liked interference in big time matches. I really need to see the Southern Boys-MX match to see the Cornette-referre spot you werew telling me. Even then, I just like matches between the partipants to be the main focus.... not the guys on the outside.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact, you could say the guy whose interference helped the most (Rhyno) worked out well in the long term, because he wound up having a decent 2001. Remember the decent hardcore match at Backlash with Raven? The good work over the summer? His matches where he would work a bodyscissors spot to eventually set up the Gore? Him carrying Jericho at SummerSlam?

 

I don't know if it was their intention to push Rhyno the way they did, but it made his interference at TLC2 look good on many levels. The guy was having a fine year before he became the latest victim of the Neck Injury Crisis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was being sarcastic when I typed up "greatest" in regards to Angle's involvement in the Benoit match in my initial paragraph.

 

Do you think I've lost my mind or something man? Cripes, it hasn't been *that* long since we last spoke.

 

Anywho...

 

Mania X7 isn't overrated since it's the best Mania up to this point. Calling it "the greatest PPV" or something along those lines is where I'd say the overrated tag is applicable.

 

The one moment where it looks as though homage is being payed to the 1st TLC match is when Jeff puts Rhyno and Spike Dudley through a table with a giant ladder. Jeff finished off Bubba in the first match where Jeffy nailed the mother of all *high* time Swanton Bombs and Bubba was no longer a factor in the match. I thought Jeff taking out Rhyno and Spike with the *high* time Swanton Bomb was being used in the same vein as the 1st one was.

 

It was a monster Sabu spot but the spot served a purpose in taking out Bubba (who had been all over the Hardy's in the 1st match) along with Rhyno & Spike (who were nuisances to the Hardy's in the 2nd match).

 

Seeing some new faces added to the mix, who actually made sense in interfering in the clusterfuck, along with adding some new and old modified spots left me more satisfied with the match overall compared to Benoit and Angle's letdown. It's a giant clusterfuck of a match but every major and little thing done in the match serves an actual purpose. All 3 teams wants to win but one decides to up the ante on the other teams and brings out a partner to interfere. They can do this too since the match is No-DQ afterall. They take advantage of this clause and think that the numbers game will work. Then, another partner for a different team comes in to help out their respective partners. But, then *another* partner comes out to help their partners fight off the other 2 groups of 3 and it almost feels like an acrobatic backyard form of gang violence where everyone is just trying to survive through any means necessary; with a little help from some friends along the way.

 

You should go back and watch it. In defiance towards the crummy card on paper that this year's Mania had, I went ahead and rewatched all of the Wrestlemania shows over the weekend. X7 is a really good show and the TLC 2 match is more refined then it's previous predecessor. They've already had some practice with this type of match before and now they're back doing it again except they added some new faces to the mix along with a couple of smarter spots, such as trying to kill and maim everyone instead of constantly trying to go after the titles, like in the 1st match, where everything just seemed like it was a set-up for a top rope Spear or some Sabu spot with a ladder and a table. The 2nd match has actual transitions this time around where there is no dead air time in this match. It's just go-go-go with no time spent lolly gagging around.

 

The match came off better to me this time around then it did when I initially watched the show in '01. I was impressed with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ref spot is in the MX/Rock & Rolls match from Wrestle War '90.

 

I agree with you ... to an extent. Cornette is a performer, he's part of the MX package, he's a large part of why the team gets heat. It wouldn't make sense for him to stand in the corner and hug the ringpost all night considering his personality. To me, Jim Cornette interfering in a match as the manager is different from another wrestler who has an ongoing feud with someone doing a run-in to cost someone a match because Cornette was as much part of the MX unit as Eaton and Condrey. He was every bit as good of a worker as they were too, but in a different way. Yeah, you weren't going to see him take huge bumps (aside from falling off of a scaffold) or get in credible offense, but he could do things to work the crowd at ringside, and teasing interference or even deliberately interfering in the match isn't going to take away from it. Both Funk/Jumbo from 06/11/76 and Hokuto/Kandori from 04/02/93 have someone at ringside trying to help one of the participants, and those are still among the greatest matches of all time.

 

There are times when interference, even from a second or manager, is wrong and unnecessary and takes away from the match. Cornette finding a way to get out of the cage when the MX went against Pillman and Zenk at Capital Combat '90 would have been bad booking, because the crowd was hyped to see a clean match based on the stip, and they got it. Having interference in a cage match is never a good thing. Bringing in extra bodies who were a large part of the storyline anyway to work highspots with everyone else, as was the case at TLC II, doesn't take away from the match at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WWE using interference in matches from '99 to now is just a *large* and long example of "bad" intereference. It's the kind where it is totally unecessary and just a straight up excuse for someone getting out of doing a job clean. It's only purpose is to placate or protect someone from doing a job clean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WWE using interference in matches from '99 to now is just a *large* and long example of "bad" intereference.  It's the kind where it is totally unecessary and just a straight up excuse for someone getting out of doing a job clean.  It's only purpose is to placate or protect someone from doing a job clean.

Right. I think managerial interference falls in the same category as Ric Flair putting his feet on the ropes to get a pinfall, or Ted DiBiase hitting someone with a loaded glove.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That stuff's okay because a rematch can always be set up where Flair or DiBiase win or lose clean in the following matches without the dirty tricks they used before.

 

HHH using his fuckin sledge hammer does not count. That would kill a man. Plus, HHH always misses when he raises the hammer up and only gives a short shot to the ribs or an upper cross to the head with the hammer. That shit looks too hokey even for wrestling matches. Using brass knucks is okay. It's within the realm of "fantasy" and does not insult the intelligence like using a sledge hammer on someone does. Using cars and jumpers attached to someone's balls to take them out has no place in wrestling. Chairs are okay but should not be used often. Belt shots are also okay but should be used often either. Soon, they become too much of a crutch and can distract and take away from the match itself.

 

Then again, any intereference can possibly take away from the match if it is not booked smartly and infrequently.

 

The cattle prod that Hall used on Goldberg at Cade '98 was okay. Nash beating Goldberg for the WCW title with the help of the cattle prod was *not* okay. It killed WCW's cash cow project (win streak) that had already been tainted after the announcers started making up numbers. Nash had no business ending the streak or beating Goldberg at that point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Some Guy

Benoit/Angle feud was super weak.  Super, super, super weak considering the names involved.  Like, two of the "greatest" wrestlers of all-time.  The expectations were high.

I agree the feud sucked. Angle is very good at times and at other he reliws too much on belly to belly suplexes and instead of buildin gto his finisher.

 

Their X7 encounter finish left a bad taste in my mouth.  Like Eddy/Rey at this last one.  The match just appeared to end out of nowhere when it should have gone about 10 more minutes.  Angle was badly exposed in this match though.  By this point, Angle had stopped using the Northern Lights suplex and the Double Underhook Belly-to-belly suplex, and instead stocked his moveset up with "great" ways to trap someone in the Ankle Lock, which I have always considered a step backwards.  Angle's mat wrestling was also shite compared to Chris freakin Benoit, who should have been outclassed but instead used a worked ground game that smoked Angle's attempts.  For fucks sakes, the guy won an Olympic Gold medal and he looked lost trying to "wear down" Benoit on the ground.  The selling also left a lot to be desired.  Crappy selling can throw an entire match out of whack and expose the "fantasy" and ruin the mood right away.

The finish was abrupt and I though the wrong guy went over. I liked the mat wrestling sequences at the begining and so did the crowd, which suprised me. I thought those spots showed the parity between the 2. I took the story as Angle trying to show up Benoit and not being able to and thus moving on to pro-style.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because I watched this show with several markish fans who all shat over the match when neither guys work seemed to have any effect.  That pissed the whole room off when Angle looked like he had gotten a second wind after getting worked over by Benoit.  Crappy moveset, crummy selling, and poor self promotion will always be the 3 strikes I count against Angle since they are so fuckin glaring.

When I watched it live I wasn't impressed because I expected a little bit of a different match, a match more like their Royal Rumble 2003 match. But on subsequent viewings I started liking it more. That said the match is lacking in certain areas like selling and they never seemed to really turn it up. It looked like they were going to and then a roll up finishes the thing too soon.

 

"Greatest" is a slap in the face to workers like Jumbo Tsuruta, Harley Race, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Kenta Kobashi, Jushin Liger, Nobuhiko Takada, Akira Hokuto, the Destroyer, Ric Flair and even Chris Benoit.

Agreed. I look at guys like Flair and Benoit as great workers and guys like Angle and HBK as great performers. The differance being that the matches are generally entertaining and dramatic but don't hold up to close scrutiny.

 

Hell, I could knock the greatest Mania X7 down by at least two matches if I felt like taking off Benoit/Angle & TLC 2 because both of those matches piss me off for how shoddy they turned out to be.  Still, it's the best Mania out of the bunch up to this point.

I agree that it is the best WM but disagree with you about TLC and Benoit/Angle. TLC was pretty much exactly what I expected it to be, an overbooked clusterfuck filled with "holy shit" spots. I wasn't disapointed in it because I knew what it was going to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I was just tossing out star ratings, I'd probably go like this:

 

Benoit/Angle - *** to *** 1/2, depending on how I feel about Angle that day. This match was a *huge* letdown and the feud exposed Angle and shoved some shit on that "Greatest wrestler" tag Meltzer handed out to him a couple years ago. Flair/Steamboat this feud ain't. The roll-up at the end shouldn't have worked on Benoit because he didn't look worn out enough to be unable to kick out and Angle's body language was sending mixed signals in regards to whether he was trying to show off on the ground against Benoit or if he was just trying to keep him off his feet in some valiant effort. Either way, it looked like he was struggling with working a ground game. It just didn't add up in the end.

 

Go back and rewatch the match for the difference in ground work from Benoit and Angle's. Maybe I missed something from earlier that you saw and I didn't.

 

TLC 2 - *** 1/2 to ****, since the match actually met it's expectations and was a true clusterfuck, but without any glaring fuck-ups. Everyone had a role in the match and no one was left with their thumb up their ass waiting for the next spot. All teams involved kept the flow going well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll elaborate more (I am supposed to be enlighening young minds after all) but I think it is insane to reward a "clusterf***" because it set out to be one and succeeded. Take the Scramble Cage from ROH in 2003. Insane spots. Holy S*** moments yet there is no way I would call it a ***-**** match but I enjoy it more than the TLC matches. It is entertaining to me but I don't even call that crap wrestling. There is zero suspension of disbelief. If the goal is to be a crapfest then why should it be rewarded at all? Plenty of matches succed at what they set out to do but that doesn't mean they were good matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is zero suspension of disbelief. If the goal is to be a crapfest then why should it be rewarded at all? Plenty of matches succed at what they set out to do but that doesn't mean they were good matches.

Different folks, different strokes I suppose.

 

You call the match crap because its goal is to be a "crapfest" when we both know none of the participants in the match have that set in their minds. Depending on who is in the match, the goal is to entertain/win, work/entertain/win, or eat up time until the finish is called in. The first one applies to someone like Sabu. His matches consist of big spots with little in between. The second one applies to the people who were in the TLC matches where everyone had their working boots on in between the big spots and kept using transitions in between using a ladder or table spot to pop the crowd big. The spin-the-ladder-around-neck spot is not something I would consider a Sabu spot since it's actually a better spot to set up something big like a drop kick from the tope rope to the guy holding up the ladder or the ladder head worker getting smacked in the head with a chair and falling down. That is a transition spot. The actual big spot is what will happen to the guy once he's attacked everyone with the ladder. I would never consider any of the members on the teams in the TLC matches "great" workers but they worked a very smart match that some of the so-called "great" workers might be hindered with instead.

 

None of the guys in All Japan, Jumbo included, New Japan, or UWFI ever worked in a cage match. Ric Flair did and he had some very, very good matches within those confines. He excelled in that environment whereas we have no idea how good or how bad the match would have been with guys like Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger and Takada working in Flair's place. This is why I never wrote off a company like FMW because they had workers who were *smart* and creative within something like a cage match with death match stipulations to it.

 

Truth be told, I believe that the "great" American workers like Flair, the Destroyer, Bret Hart, Vader and Chris Benoit all have a leg up on the guys from Japan in this regard. Now, this isn't something I'd use to brag about but working a "smart" cage match is harder than working within the confines of a normal exhibition match with no-gimmicks. Since they've been brought up, I thought NOAH should have got creative when the company formed in '00 and started using cage matches, death matches, No-DQ matches and other gimmicked matches because I would have really liked to have seen whether or not Misawa, Kobashi, Akiyama, etc. could work a smart cage match like their peers from the other side of the world have done. Plus, it would have been something unique to tout against the other major companies at the time that would have made NOAH stand out more.

 

Would any of those guys from Japan been able to work a smart cage match? That's a question that has always left me pondering.

 

This is why I use the term "great" in a loose sense because guys like Flair, Benoit, and Hart never worked in an environment like All Japan or New Japan on a full-time basis. There's no telling how more refined each of their in-ring skills could have gotten if those guys had stuck around Japan for as long as Stan Hansen did. Hansen was a worker that showed promise when he was in the WWWF but he wasn't anything special. After a couple years and several NJ and AJ tours later, Hansen became one of the elite gaijin workers in Puroresu history. That's no accident.

 

Same deal in reverse.

 

It would have been interesting to see how guys like Misawa, Kobashi, and Kawada would have done in a WWF or WCW environment, spending as much or more time in the States as someone like the Great Muta did when he made his initial tours of America with WCW in the late 80's to late 90's. Perhaps the Terrific Three might have become spot frenzied sooner than they did in '97 had they worked any extensive tours of America like Muta had done.

 

But we'll never know just how "great" any of the "great" workers might have really been had their situations and environment been flipped. The Destroyer, in this regard, could probably be touted as being at the top of the "great" workers list because he spent an equal amount of time in Japan and America and worked all sorts of different matches, such as cage matches, that his Japanese counterparts never had to work with on a semi-regular basis. Cage matches were huge in the 70's and the Destroyer worked in many of those when he wrestled with and without his mask in the Los Angeles territory. He's already an elite worker but he's also one of the most versatile wrestlers in that list of "great" workers.

 

But I digress.

 

Garbage matches are garbage matches. Garbage and plunder is used to down your opponent. Possibly, even make them suffer. The point is to prove who the tougher guy is while also trying to out wrestle and out work (in the kayfabe sense) the other guy by shredding their back up with a scythe or using a sickle to slice their arms up. All death matches have a point; a goal. The goal is to win at any means necessary. For *that* simple reason, that exists in all other non-gimmicked matches, is why I look at garbage matches and their ilk along the same lines as a normal exhibition match without being gimmicked. Wrestling is already an exercise in escapism because of all the people in the business who expose it, whether through ego tripping interviews (Vince) or by fucking up a simple move that throws off the whole flow of the match (botched ending).

 

Wrestling is already hokey enough to watch. It doesn't matter what decade or what company the match is being put out from; wrestling is still a hokey thing to watch. Everyone involved in the match already knows the outcome and probably has a good idea about the sequence of moves that will be used. But the viewer doesn't know any of this (yet). That's where the intrigue for watching this crazy stuff comes from. Who is going to win and how? The ending might be predictable at times but if it makes sense and leaves the viewer satisfied with the outcome of the match then the workers have succeeded in the work/entertain/win mindset that all good workers possess. No one is left feeling unsatisfied.

 

The suspension from disbelief comes from both sides. The viewer and the workers. If you have already written off garbage matches or believe you'll never get into lucha libre for some reason(s) or something like that, then you've already defeated yourself and should probably not watch the match. Watch a dozen or so matches that have the same "mad scramble" atmosphere like a TLC match and soon you'll be picking up little spots or transitions that make sense now but didn't before. Someone like HHH, working nearly *50* minutes in a HIAC match or doing a 60-minute Iron Man match, shows that he does not know how to cover up his weaknesses because none of those matches helped him look strong. All they did was expose him for the 15-minute match worker (which is pushing it to a degree) that he really is and just the thought that he goes 25 + minutes in some of his matches is disturbing. Someone, like Vince, needs to step in and veto that plan. HHH does not possess the in-ring skills or the transition ability to keep a match like that go-go-go without relying on the lazy crutch spots (prolonged headlock, walking around outside of the ring, stalling, etc.) that kill both time and the audience?s interest. Aside from maybe Benoit and possibly Eddy, there is *no* one in the WWE who can work a match that long and work it *smart* without using the crutch spots we've seen used before by guys like HHH and Kurt Angle. This is why *neither* of those guys should ever be tagged with the term "great" worker in any sense because the "great" workers listed earlier have gone 50 and 60 + minutes in a match and did not rely on crutch spots/rest time holds to cover up their lack of a strong move set or to catch a breath of three. Sure, Misawa, Kobashi, and Kawada had some dog moments in the 60 minute draws they've had with one another. But their 60-minute matches were worked smarter than the 60-minute matches that have taken place inside of a WWE ring. A 60-minute match is already a trial in patience. A garbage match can be a trial for good taste for some. A lucha libre match can be a test of...well, I don't really know what. I suppose a test of history and background might suffice since all that stuff can be really skewed at times if someone wants to know the back story to a match. Mexico is still catching up with the US in some areas, such as match results history, but it's improved over the past 10 years after AAA got huge in SoCal and Mexico. It was like a lucha renaissance and old fans and new fans alike came out of the wood works to watch the shows. I know since I was one of the new fans who got into AAA when its boom period was going on.

 

I grew up watching FMW and AAA during my formative teenage years. I can appreciate the novelty of a match like TLC 2 but I also look at the match from a critical standpoint. Smart spots, strong transitions, and some clever in-ring psychology are a couple of the things I'll always look for in a match because those are the things that, intentionally and unintentionally, that fans, marks and smarts alike, will always look for in a match. It's what keeps the escapism going in a match. If either of those things is disturbed, then the match comes to a screeching halt and all you can do is wait for the next match to come on. Keep the "hate" real in a match.

 

Good matches need good stories. Not all of the time. But nearly all of the "great" matches in wrestling history have had some sort of story attached to them. They balance out one another. They need each other. It's like how a body builder needs to do weight training *and* cardio exercises. The dude can get jacked off lifting a ton of weights but he needs to walk on the treadmill or run up a hill a couple times every now and then because one without the other leaves an imbalance that will halt someone from reaching their peak maximum health.

 

In order to be great, neither the storyline build-up nor the match itself can be tainted in any way. Greatness is not achieved with an imbalance. Balance must be found so that all sides match up and leave neither one looking weak. Misawa vs. Kawada on 6/94 is *the* best example of perfect balance in the art of wrestling. The storyline is strong and the in-ring match quality is strong. For all the fans that invested their time and money in watching years worth of shows leading up to their showdown, a balance was installed once the match ended because neither the match or its story were flawed or tainted.

 

The TLC 2 match had a balance between both worlds and that's why I thought it was a better match than when I initially watched it. I did not see the balance it had with the storyline and the match itself. Everything comes together in the match and that's all I need as a fan to feel satisfied with a match.

 

I'm done rambling.

 

Oh and Will?

 

If you're going to reply to this post, just do it in one giant post instead of quoting what I said instead of quoting parts of it. Easier on the eyes. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this goes back nicely to one specific thing that Sass just said better than I could, even though I've tried for a long time -- balance. What a nice word.

 

:)

 

This, in many ways, ties into the discussion we had a while back, Will, and sort of revived recently, about how the storylines and the angles are just as crucial and important as the matches, and that it's all part of the experience of watching wrestling. One really shouldn't shortchange the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You call the match crap because its goal is to be a "crapfest" when we both know none of the participants in the match have that set in their minds.

 

No, I called it a crapfest because I didn't think the match was any good... and I do think the participants knew they were going to be in a SPOTfest, not a true wrestling MOTYC.

 

Depending on who is in the match, the goal is to entertain/win, work/entertain/win, or eat up time until the finish is called in.

 

There are other goals you can tack onto this also. Also, I don't think winning is necessary a goal in the match since it is pre-determined. If you want to look at it from kayfabe, sure.

 

The first one applies to someone like Sabu. His matches consist of big spots with little in between. The second one applies to the people who were in the TLC matches where everyone had their working boots on in between the big spots and kept using transitions in between using a ladder or table spot to pop the crowd big. The spin-the-ladder-around-neck spot is not something I would consider a Sabu spot since it's actually a better spot to set up something big like a drop kick from the tope rope to the guy holding up the ladder or the ladder head worker getting smacked in the head with a chair and falling down. That is a transition spot. The actual big spot is what will happen to the guy once he's attacked everyone with the ladder. I would never consider any of the members on the teams in the TLC matches "great" workers but they worked a very smart match that some of the so-called "great" workers might be hindered with instead.

 

This is where we disagree. I'll rewatch the match again but I have seen it several times and don't think there is that much oif a difference between the TLC matches and a Sabu spotfest. THe main difference is the amount of workers. There is less fileler because there are more guys in the ring that can fill time.

 

None of the guys in All Japan, Jumbo included, New Japan, or UWFI ever worked in a cage match. Ric Flair did and he had some very, very good matches within those confines. He excelled in that environment whereas we have no idea how good or how bad the match would have been with guys like Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger and Takada working in Flair's place. This is why I never wrote off a company like FMW because they had workers who were *smart* and creative within something like a cage match with death match stipulations to it.

 

So, because the majority of the guys mentioned never worked gimmicked matches, they are lacking?

 

Truth be told, I believe that the "great" American workers like Flair, the Destroyer, Bret Hart, Vader and Chris Benoit all have a leg up on the guys from Japan in this regard.

 

Sure, they um... worked more gimmick matches. This isn't really up for debate.

 

Now, this isn't something I'd use to brag about but working a "smart" cage match is harder than working within the confines of a normal exhibition match with no-gimmicks.

 

I strongly disagree. In order to elicit the response you want from the crowd, there are cheap but effective ways to get the crowd to respond in a gimmicked match. Ram the guy into the cage and have him bounce off. Grab his leg right as he begins his climb over the cage. Jump off the top of the cage. These are crutches that can be used when all else is failing.

 

For TLC... whack someone with the ladder in the face. Jump off the ladder. Conchairto. Whatever the case may be, you don' have to work as hard to elicit a response. It just might hurt more in the morning.

 

This is why I use the term "great" in a loose sense because guys like Flair, Benoit, and Hart never worked in an environment like All Japan or New Japan on a full-time basis. There's no telling how more refined each of their in-ring skills could have gotten if those guys had stuck around Japan for as long as Stan Hansen did. Hansen was a worker that showed promise when he was in the WWWF but he wasn't anything special. After a couple years and several NJ and AJ tours later, Hansen became one of the elite gaijin workers in Puroresu history. That's no accident.

 

I see where you are coming from but this is all shoulda, coulda, woulda. What we can evaluate is what stands before us. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed reading this post. I lik the different point of view but this is all speculation. Hulk Hogan could have never touched roids and may have been as good as Flair. Who knows?

 

Garbage matches are garbage matches. Garbage and plunder is used to down your opponent. Possibly, even make them suffer. The point is to prove who the tougher guy is while also trying to out wrestle and out work (in the kayfabe sense) the other guy by shredding their back up with a scythe or using a sickle to slice their arms up. All death matches have a point; a goal. The goal is to win at any means necessary.

 

I think you have the misconception that I don't enjoy garbage matches or death matches or cage matches or any other gimmicked match. You would be wrong. read my thoughts on the Eddie-JBL bullrope match. I love the 6/99 Big Japan Honma vs. Yamakawa bed-of-nails match. The story in that match played out... whoever landed on the bed of nails first was going to lose, regardless of what else they were doing to mutilate their bodies. I can also point out the flaws in that match such as the contrived tiger driver on the bed of chairs or Honma missing the light tube smash when he jumped off the balcony.

 

 

The goal is to win at any means necessary. For *that* simple reason, that exists in all other non-gimmicked matches, is why I look at garbage matches and their ilk along the same lines as a normal exhibition match without being gimmicked. Wrestling is already an exercise in escapism because of all the people in the business who expose it, whether through ego tripping interviews (Vince) or by fucking up a simple move that throws off the whole flow of the match (botched ending).

 

 

You would also have to read my debate with Some Guy in a previous thread where I said the EXACT same thing... all matches can be compared with each other regardless of the gimmick. I have already stated and defeded this assertion. I don't really disagree with any of this. I disagree with your assessment of the TLC match. It's that simple.

 

 

Wrestling is already hokey enough to watch. It doesn't matter what decade or what company the match is being put out from; wrestling is still a hokey thing to watch. Everyone involved in the match already knows the outcome and probably has a good idea about the sequence of moves that will be used. That's where the intrigue for watching this crazy stuff comes from. Who is going to win and how? The ending might be predictable at times but if it makes sense and leaves the viewer satisfied with the outcome of the match then the workers have succeeded in the work/entertain/win mindset that all good workers possess. No one is left feeling unsatisfied.

 

Once again, just because I don't like one gimmicked match doesn't mean I don't like all of them. Do you want another example... I specifically stated in this thread I enjoyed the Scramble Cage from Main Event Spectacles but I don't have any delusions on if it is a good match or not.

 

grew up watching FMW and AAA during my formative teenage years. I can appreciate the novelty of a match like TLC 2 but I also look at the match from a critical standpoint. Smart spots, strong transitions, and some clever in-ring psychology are a couple of the things I'll always look for in a match because those are the things that, intentionally and unintentionally, that fans, marks and smarts alike, will always look for in a match. It's what keeps the escapism going in a match. If either of those things is disturbed, then the match comes to a screeching halt and all you can do is wait for the next match to come on. Keep the "hate" real in a match.

 

OK, once again, I disagree with your assessment on TLC2... not on garbage or gimmicked wrestling.

 

 

Good matches need good stories. Not all of the time. But nearly all of the "great" matches in wrestling history have had some sort of story attached to them. They balance out one another. They need each other. It's like how a body builder needs to do weight training *and* cardio exercises. The dude can get jacked off lifting a ton of weights but he needs to walk on the treadmill or run up a hill a couple times every now and then because one without the other leaves an imbalance that will halt someone from reaching their peak maximum health.

 

In order to be great, neither the storyline build-up nor the match itself can be tainted in any way. Greatness is not achieved with an imbalance. Balance must be found so that all sides match up and leave neither one looking weak.

 

What do I know about Jumbo vs. Funk 76? Jumbo was the student and Funk was the teacher. That is all I need to know.

 

Mascaras vs. Destroyer? I know very little backstory.

 

Ohtani vs. Ultimo? They wanted to be the winner of the tourney and I am almost 97% positive that Ohtani's father was in the audience and he was seeking his approval.

 

Kawada vs. Albright? Kawada kicks ass and Albright wasn't very good. The story tells itself in the middle of the ring.

 

I agree that you need some fundamental understanding... heel or face (which can sill be est. in the ring even if you never heard of a guy before (ROH 3 way from the first show); finishing moves or signature moves; the ability to compare and contrast two segments to see if they made snese; but after that, wrestling is fairly simple to understand. It ain't rocket science. Like you said, it is already a hokey premise. As you see more matches, you lose your love of some matches or gain appreciation of other matches. What was once a **** match in your eyes now becomes a ** snore.

 

My main problem with what you guys are saying is this idea that a great match is coningent to the buildup of the match. It can add layers that make the eagle eye enjoy it more (6/3/94; Joe-Punk III) but those matches still stand on their own. If a match relies solely on its history then the storytelling in the ring is flawed no matter how much wink wink nudge nudge it gives the fans.

 

I like watching wrestling. I like some styles over others. I have a shitload of tapes, have seen a shitload of matches.

 

Maybe balance between buildup and the match is needed for you to enjoy the product. I have seen plenty of good angles and storylines result in shitty matches. No balance, right? So it was all a wash?

 

Then there are the matches with no buildup or even poor buildup that can result in GREAT matches DESPITE the buildup. That to me is an even more impressive feat. I just ordered a tape of WWF 1996 TV from some guy. I have read enough to know the basic storlines behind some of these feuds. Others not so much but if the wrestling sucks, then it is wasted time. If the wrestling is superb despite a shitty three months of tv leading up to the match, I am ok with that. There is no way that anyone here has seen the months and years buildup to Misawa-Kawada before it happened. No, we were recommended the match by someone else and explored it with our eyes. We were intrigued enough by it to search out the stuff leaing up to it and it added to our viewing pleasure. The match still had to be good enough to capture our attention in the first place. Others are great the first time you see them. You are so amped up you watch it again and find the little things that enhance our opinion of the match even more. That makes them greatER.

 

This really comes down to two things...

 

1. Initially, I disagree with your assessment that TLC2 is a worthwhile match. I'll rewatch it again and reevaluate my position. It may change or stay the same.

 

2. We disagree on the importance of the buildup to the match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...