The Bixenspan Group for 7/1/07

[Dylan Waco]

Oh god you are so full of shit, like always.

 

There is plenty of substance in modern puro classics, but you're too busy trying to be as sarcastic and dismissive as possible to even open yourself to the possibility of it.

 

It's hilarious when an ass like you moans about 15 minutes "2.9 counts" when 90s All Japan was full of matches which did the very same.

 

I should have known this was fucking pointless after hearing your godawful arrogant tone on that show.

 

Would you say there is a difference between something like the average TNA X Division match structure and the Akiyama/Misawa v. Taue/Kawada match structure?

 

I"m guessing you would say yes.

 

Would you say there is a difference in match quality between the average AJPW tag match and the average TNA X Division match?

 

I'm guessing you would say yes.

 

Would you say Marufuji v. KENTA is closer to Misawa v. Kawada or Alex Shelley v. Jay Lethal?

 

I think if you are being honest you are going to say it's closer to Shelley v. Lethal and not just in terms of match quality either, but in terms of match structure which is really the issue.

 

2.9 blah, blah is kind of a tired talking point and it is overused, but alot of Japanese "epic" matches are really caricatures of 90's AJPW that had alot more going on then just rabid fire nearfall exchanges and momentum twist at random. Both NOAH and TNA have their working origins in that style, but they are in no way the same thing.

[Jingus]

Although, truthfully, it goes back farther than that. I recall Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask trading tombstones on the floor and damn near shrugging them off, for one example. Harley Race had this weird tendency to let jobbers kick out of his piledrivers, too.

[Dylan Waco]

I actually think TM/DK series is really overrated.

[Guest Spunk]

I actually think TM/DK series is really overrated.

I remember all of the hype for those matches, and finally watching them in like 96/97 or so, and being like 'holy shit, this is not that good.'

[Jingus]

They basically helped start the modern trend of doing high-impact flashy moves at a high rate of speed, without worrying too much about selling it all. If you like that, you'll like them; if you're more into the psychology aspect of wrestling, then probably not so much.

[Phil Schneider]

2.9 has become an overused talking point? That was something Tomk and I made up after reading a Zach Arnold translation of a Gong article. Man alive does that Kawada guy have shitty taste in wrestling, KENTA v. Morishima? That match utterly sucked cock

[ohtani's jacket]

And as you said, wrestling in Japan is really dead. The only fans are people who were there in years ago. I have yet to meet anyone younger than 22 that is even a casual fan, like it's just something their older brothers watched but is now a big joke. Wrestling will stay around until the retirement of an entire generation of Mutos and Misawas who wrestle because they can't do anything else in life, and set up a bar or a restaurant or something like all Japanese wrestlers do.

I think some of these "cut and paste-excite.co.jp" people would be shocked if they knew where many of these venues are. I was shocked when I discovered where Shinjuku Face is... As for the wrestlers there's always TV. Japan is the land of the variety TV show and there's a whole Variety TV circuit. Hokuto and Sasaki are firmly entrenched in this circuit. Their gimmick is that she wears the trousers in the household. Sometimes Sakaki brings along his NJPW buddies, and there's a comedian who does a Riki Choshu gimmick. Oh, and Inoki still has his face plastered everywhere. The other day he was on a truck promoting a Japanese rapper's new single... Other than that, puroresu is pachinko parlour theme music. If not for that area around Tokyo dome with all the expensive puroresu shops and a few major Tsutaya video stores and puroresu magazines, it would be completely dead.

 

I did find one cool ramen shop that had pictures of Baba, Inoki and Rikidozan. And sometimes there's an ad for a show on the big TV screen in Shibuya. Waste of fucking money that.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hot nearfalls rule. A match where the last 10 - 15 minutes is nothing but nearfalls isn't 'hot' nearfalls, its just cheap heat.

I went to a show about three years ago... It might be cheap heat, but it's actually really exciting live.

[Jingus]

One major problem is when such a match isn't saved for the main event, or an important feud, or whatever. I spent five years doing play-by-play for an indy TV show, and jesus CHRIST I had to call a million opening matches where some barely-outta-training greenhorns thought they would pop the crowd by kicking out of a bunch of finishers, do the move tradeoff and Indy Pose Stance thing, badly execute a fish-out-of-water spot, all kinds of bullshit. Maybe the toothless "RASSLIN IS REAL" marks popped for it, but meanwhile the cameraman, the music girl, and the "smart mark section" were all rolling their eyes and making fun of them.

[kjh]

This probably shouldn't go here, but with regards to the Observer awards I could really see Couture or Liddell winning the box office award. If Couture keeps winning (big if) he could even win the Wrestler Of The Year award.

[S.L.L.]

Oh god you are so full of shit, like always.

 

There is plenty of substance in modern puro classics, but you're too busy trying to be as sarcastic and dismissive as possible to even open yourself to the possibility of it.

 

It's hilarious when an ass like you moans about 15 minutes "2.9 counts" when 90s All Japan was full of matches which did the very same.

 

I should have known this was fucking pointless after hearing your godawful arrogant tone on that show.

You're confusing cause and effect.

 

Problem isn't 2.9 counts. Problem is the way they're used. It's not the idea, it's the execution. It's the effect. The cause is an ass-backwards method of building a match based around "big match" spots strung together to elicit reactions usually associated with "big matches", instead of working an actual big match with actual compelling characters who establish an actual reason to be actually emotionally invested in their conflict, and then using those "big match" spots appropriately to best convey the story to the audience.

 

Pointing to great 90's All Japan matches with 2.9 count sections misses the point. Problem isn't the use of 2.9 counts. Problem is using them poorly. It's a bit like trying to defend "Roadhouse" from people complaining about the acting by pointing out that "Citizen Kane" also had actors in it. It's a rather blatant misreading of the complaint, and it feels like something done deliberately so you wouldn't have to actually address the issues at hand. Probably not intentional on your part, but it seems like that's what's going on there.

[Dylan Waco]

Phil, 2.9 style really is an overused talking point at this point, though to be fair it is largely because the term is misunderstood and applied as in this thread.

 

Also Morishima v. KENTA was pretty shitty.

[Guest Nathan]

I'm surprised Jimmy Jacobs didn't come up in the discussion for the Brody award. Great listen.