Who is more important for pro wrestling history?

[yesdanielbryan]

Good morning.

This poll is about historical importance, obiouvsly not about who is a better worker. 

The comparisons are:

1) Bret Hart vs The Rock

2) Jushin Liger vs The Undertaker

3) Chris Jericho vs Goldberg

4) Junkyard Dog vs Kevin Nash

5) Daniel Bryan vs AJ Styles

Thank you very much

[DMJ]

- I voted The Rock. When I think of pro-wrestling history, not just WWE and not just the past 20 years, The Rock got the nod because, in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, The Rock will still be more famous than any wrestler ever. Granted, that's not exactly because of his wrestling career, but one day, people will ask who the most popular wrestler of all time was and The Rock will probably, by the revisionist pen of father time, be that (and, yes, that means surpassing Hulk Hogan). Nothing to do with influence or style - just the fact that The Rock is such a huge mega-star that his name will live on much longer than Bret's.

- I voted Liger. To me, again, I wasn't focused on just WWE. The Undertaker, if anything, is important because of the time he put in under one gimmick and his streak (not WrestleMania wins, but WrestleMania matches, which will probably never be close to touched and symbolizes the fact that he was a top guy for close to 30 years). But...you can write  a history of pro-wrestling without mentioning The Undertaker. I'm not sure you could do it without Liger (if you're being truly fair to non-US wrestling). The longevity is there. The wrestling under the same gimmick is there. The influence tops Taker easily. This was a close one to me. 

- I was surprised to see Jericho over Goldberg in votes so far. I voted Goldberg. Granted, this could definitely, definitely change in a few years time if AEW continues to do well. But, for now, I'm going to give Goldberg some serious credit for being the last true WCW Superstar. Like I wrote about Undertaker and Liger, I'm not sure you can write an objective history of pro-wrestling without having to mention who Goldberg was and what he came to represent: WCW's last hope that, in some ways, the company failed (rather than the other way around). Jericho, on the other hand, is a really important figure now - but, in some ways, for all his talk about being ahead of the curve, its not necessarily true. The NJPW buzz was there before the feud with Omega. He was a driving force behind AEW, obviously, but I credit Cody and the Bucks more for the groundwork they laid down while Jericho was still in the WWE. Jericho wasn't the first wrestler with a podcast or a successful book and his rock band, while profitable, is not some huge crossover success or artistically-lauded endeavor. 

- I went with Nash and now I'm regretting it. I think this is where my age bias shows because I don't know much about 70s/early 80s wrestling so I instantly linked Nash to nWo, which did, briefly, topple the WWE machine.

- Bryan took this. Oddly, part of the reason for this is because Bryan didn't get the exposure of TNA - which, fairly or not, will likely always be remembered as a "failed promotion" even as it enters its second decade of existence. Its not a fair assessment, but it also means that AJ Styles, who will justifiably be remembered by many as Mr. TNA, will also be forever linked to the silliness of 6-sided rings and reverse battle royals and Eric Bischoff and Hogan's failed attempt to remake WCW. Meanwhile, Daniel Bryan will be remembered as the ultimate indy wrestler, a guy who traveled the world and made a name for himself in various indy promotions before coming to the WWE and becoming the biggest star on the roster all through sheer talent and an underdog persona (that will, again, incorrectly be assumed to have been his gimmick on the indies as well). In 20 years, when people talk about the indy wrestling boom of the 00s, Daniel Bryan will be the name (probably alongside CM Punk) that comes to symbolize that entire era - while guys like Nigel McGuinness and Low Ki will likely be, unfortunately, forgotten.

[sek69]

You can make the argument that the Bret/Shawn real life feud turning into the mess that caused Vince to do Montreal is the biggest historical butterfly effect in wrestling history. Sure, Rock will be more well known and famous wrestler ever when it's all said and done, but Bret (mostly unintentionally) ended up changing the course of both WWF/E and the business in general. It kick started the heel Mr. McMahon that turned around the WWF, and him going to WCW afterwards ended up being the poster child of "this company is doomed and doesn't know what the hell they are doing".

 

I voted for Liger, since on top of what he did personally, he built up an entire division that inspired wrestlers all over the world. You can see it in the goodbyes he got in diverse promotions like New Japan and CMLL. He literally influenced  the entire world, and while people will be talking about the Streak forever and there's going to be a million WWE produced documentaries about it, but it's not likely there will be as many people who base their entire style around Taker like there are for Liger. 

 

To me Jericho's the clear choice, since Goldberg's only claim to fame is "the one thing WCW didn't fuck up",  except when you watch the last year or so of TV you see they totally did. The WWE Magic Wand of Historical Revisionism will do its best to make it seem differently, but after the initial megapush and title win, he was just as another guy treading water in the ridiculousness of WCW's death flails. Jericho's a smart guy in the sense he knew to hitch his wagon to a hot thing when he went to NJPW, but it can't be discounted that if AEW proves to be a long term success it's in large part due to his run on top. I'll admit I wasn't completely sold on him being the first ever champion, but his run has done wonders not only for him but everyone around him. You can't have effective heroes without having great villains to play off of, and his current incarnation has been the perfect foil for all the folks AEW are trying to establish as stars. 

 

Nash is an easy target for jokes, but him and Hall getting guaranteed deals with WCW was a monumental game changer in the business. Looking back he also had some bad luck for a guy who's seen as bulletproof. His big WWF champion run was derailed by Vince insisting he be a smilin' babyface instead of the cool heel he was leading up to the win. It didn't fit the character and it came off as forced until it was used as fodder for his heel run as he was on the way out. In WCW, a lot of the bullshit that went on backstage was due to Hulk constantly undermining his ideas (no way to know if they would have been any good, but if Hulk was that dead against it, it's a good sign it involved people not Hulk Hogan on top) to the point there were large stretches where no one in WCW knew what they would be doing one day to the next.  As far as Junkyard Dog, looking back it seems like it was part "big fish in a small pond" and part just catching lightning in a bottle for a few years.  Not to discount what he did, he was absolutely a huge draw, but you could see the cracks starting to show. They were repeating angles with him towards the end of his Mid South run, and it seemed like he was quickly getting to the point of needing to leave the territory to freshen up. Unfortunately by that time, that meant going to the WWF and that was pretty much the end of him being any kind of draw. 

 

Finally I went with Bryan, but I could see an argument either way. For me it comes down to Bryan being in a bigger promotion as the difference maker. AJ was a key player in turning around New Japan into the #2 company in the world, but Bryan (and Punk also to be fair) played a big part in changing the mindset in WWE towards smaller wrestlers. Pretty much everyone in NXT not Keith Lee owe a debt to Bryan, since WWE would never have paid any attention to them before. I think that's going to go down as the bigger influence in the long term.

[Laz]

Hart over Rock. The Montreal Screwjob brought back the attention of wrestling fans who'd wandered away, even folks like my parents that stopped watching in the 80s. The Rock benefitted amazingly from the attention and drew more money, sure, but a lot of that money involved Steve Austin...who was 100% legitimized in the WWF via the Hart feud.

Liger over Taker. I can't lie, I'm a bigger Taker fan than I am of Liger, but the Junior/Cruiserweight/etc. style of wrestling doesn't look the same without Liger. 

Jericho over Goldberg. Easy one on every level. He was instrumental in helping cruiser-relegated talent into the ME of the WWF, gave us one of best feuds of the 00s when paired with HBK, and is now reigning as the top guy in the hot new company. Goldberg...had a great run for most of 1998 and never mattered again.

Nash over JYD. Not only did Nash take part in the nWo at the start until the end, but he also changed the way the contract situations work in the big leagues. Downside guarantees, diversified jobs meaning diversified pay, reinforcing collective bargaining...Big Kev worked the workers better than anybody.

Bryan over Styles. If you asked me a decade ago? My answer would be the opposite. Bryan's rise to the top, forced retirement, run as authority figure, and miraculous return was something that will overshadow everything AJ meant to the 00s scene and a dead(ish) company any day.

[Log]

17 hours ago, Laz said:

Hart over Rock. The Montreal Screwjob brought back the attention of wrestling fans who'd wandered away, even folks like my parents that stopped watching in the 80s. The Rock benefitted amazingly from the attention and drew more money, sure, but a lot of that money involved Steve Austin...who was 100% legitimized in the WWF via the Hart feud.

The part about "brought back the attention" is what made me pick Bret here.  As mega-famous as Rocky has become, it's my opinion that he didn't do much to bring new eyes to pro wrestling.  Bret was extremely over in Europe in the 90's and probably kickstarted a lot of young people's fandom there.  Rock was/is insanely popular, but emerged in the middle of a boom that was started by Bret/Stone Cold/McMahon/nWo, etc.

[Sweet Brown Koko]

I voted exactly like Laz and for the same reasons.

[yesdanielbryan]

To analyze these comparisons I'd like to talk about Jericho. He is winning 20-5.

Why did you choose him over Goldberg?In the sense, Goldberg is for sure a bigger star than Jericho. Jericho in WWE was always a midcarder-uppercarder, occasionally a mani eventer, while Goldberg has been, for his entire short career, and he's still today a main eventer and in 1998 was a mega star. I think that Jericho's greatness has increased so mich these last 2 years with this NJPW and AEW stints.

[Laz]

You're not asking about popularity, you're asking about importance. Goldberg required being booked like an invincible wrecking machine and still only mattered for a year. A. Year.

Jericho, meanwhile, served as an entry point for many US fans to discover Japanese wrestling thanks to his performances in the Super J-Cup. He was also one of the first examples of a hot WCW talent jumping ship to the WWF and led the charge for Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Saturn to bail months later. He was part of the workrate boost in the company during the year 2000 and has been a pivotal talent during each subsequent run. 

[sek69]

8 minutes ago, Laz said:

You're not asking about popularity, you're asking about importance. Goldberg required being booked like an invincible wrecking machine and still only mattered for a year. A. Year.

Jericho, meanwhile, served as an entry point for many US fans to discover Japanese wrestling thanks to his performances in the Super J-Cup. He was also one of the first examples of a hot WCW talent jumping ship to the WWF and led the charge for Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Saturn to bail months later. He was part of the workrate boost in the company during the year 2000 and has been a pivotal talent during each subsequent run. 

Plus being the main figure of the first legit competition in 20 years and (so far) carrying the ball expertly would put him ahead of Goldberg in an importance sense without all the other stuff.  Some people are stuck on his last WWE run not being all that great, but history has pretty much shown to be mostly on the company and not Jericho himself.