jdw Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 If you were to do a hall of fame in Japan, Saku and Funaki would be in on the first ballot. Aja Kong, Manami Toyota, Hase and a couple others wouldn't. To the extent that someone should be judged a success based on the standards of where they worked, Funaki deserves it. I'm not terribly interested in a WWF/WWE style HOF where I need to turn off my brain. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Funaki's case isn't based on making MMA big, but rather based on helping the Japanese overcome their post-war inferiority complex... which was *the entire point of pro wrestling in Japan*. What does this mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 The "Japanese beating the American" thing from decades ago I'm sure I don't need to explain. With guys like Saku and Funaki you had athletes among the elite in the world, which despite the country's population and affluence is an incredibly rare thing. I mean, Hideki Matsui's ugly mug was EVERYWHERE when I went to Japan in 2005, just because he was good enough to be above-average in MLB and start for the Yankees. Funaki as a world-class fighter was the ultimate expression of Japanese pro wrestling, which... hang on I just thought of something! Ken Shamrock! Shamrock isn't in the WON hall of fame and never will be. At one point he was a world-class fighter, and he had a comparable amount of pro wrestling in his resume. But because pro wrestling in America doesn't get justification through shoot cred, Ken's influence on MMA in the mid-90s isn't a significant enough accomplishment to put him in the hall. US wrestling fans don't see Ken Shamrock as a hall of fame pro wrestler any more than jdw or I see Masakatsu Funaki as one. But from the Japanese perspective, being a world-class fighter is the highest thing a pro wrestler can aspire to become. It justifies the 'sport' and the nation. Inoki became a cultural icon with worked shoots, Saku got huge by beating Gracies, and Funaki is seen as a pro wrestling superstar despite not having anything close to a superstar resume in worked matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 You've got to be a little careful when talking about the history of wrestling in Japan, because there's never been anything definitive written about it in English. It was first staged in 1887, which was a long time before the war. They failed throughout the 20s to promote pro-wrestling in Japan and the first efforts after the war weren't promoted by Japanese. Originally it was entertainment for US servicemen. I do not think that Funaki was ever seen as an elite world athlete and I don't agree that PANCRASE was a Fujiwara offshoot. I wouldn't give Fujiwara any credit for PANCRASE. They couldn't have been further apart ideologically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Fujiwara didn't have a hand in Pancrase or Battlarts, but they were heavily dependent on his students. The influence is the training. As for Funaki... well Meltzer heard a lot of support from Japan, and he drew two huge crowds, so there must be SOMETHING there. edit: Cripes, why does so little of this WON stuff filter around the internet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Shamrock isn't in the WON hall of fame and never will be. At one point he was a world-class fighter, and he had a comparable amount of pro wrestling in his resume. But because pro wrestling in America doesn't get justification through shoot cred, Ken's influence on MMA in the mid-90s isn't a significant enough accomplishment to put him in the hall. US wrestling fans don't see Ken Shamrock as a hall of fame pro wrestler any more than jdw or I see Masakatsu Funaki as one. But from the Japanese perspective, being a world-class fighter is the highest thing a pro wrestler can aspire to become. It justifies the 'sport' and the nation. Inoki became a cultural icon with worked shoots, Saku got huge by beating Gracies, and Funaki is seen as a pro wrestling superstar despite not having anything close to a superstar resume in worked matches. Shamrock isn't in the WON Hall of Fame because Dave decided to start an MMA HOF on a whim the year he was going to put Shamrock on the ballot (2005). If he hadn't decided to do that and stuck to his guns about shoot fighters in his HOF, I think Shamrock would have been voted in by now. There were enough reporters who bought his argument that MMA is a subset of pro wrestling, enough historians who mark for shooters and enough aging carnies who want their fake stuff legitimized to outweigh the voters who would refuse to vote for him on principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Fujiwara didn't have a hand in Pancrase or Battlarts, but they were heavily dependent on his students. The influence is the training. I'm not completely sold on that one. Fujiwara wanted to *work*. That was his vision - worked "shoot" pro wrestling. It wasn't a unique vision to him or created by him, as others shared it when they split originally from New Japan. Funaki, Suzuki and Shamrock had a different vision. A hybrid of "wrestling" as real and frankly a martial arts competition of one thinks about it. It was a stretch at the time, and frankly moreso now looking back at it from what we know now, to call it "wrestling". It had elements and a base of wrestling. But it also had other non-wrestling elements in the base "art" such as striking and submissions. While those are comic book elements of "pro wrestling", they aren't really elements of wrestling and instead items out of other martial arts. Funaki, Suzuki and Shamrock went "real" (setting aside the matches that weren't). There's a gulf between that and Fujiwara, and clearly he preferred sticking with the pro wrestling side. As for Funaki... well Meltzer heard a lot of support from Japan, and he drew two huge crowds, so there must be SOMETHING there. The "two huge crowds" thing is always something I scratch my head at. The PWF dome show was widely seen as a total failure at the time with a heavily papered gate. I guess in hindsight the myth has built up over it. Sort of the reverse of the New Japan Dome shows that over time have been talking about as being inflated figures. The PWF show was flat out called inflated and papered at the time, similar to the SWS shows. The "25K" against Rickson... that's a "huge crowd"? Those goofy Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye shows drew more. Is there a real "huge crowd" that he truly was the one drawing it? I mean... Aikiyama has main evented some dome shows with bigger crowds. :/ John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 I had no idea the PWFG dome show was heavily papered. Doesn't shock me; I was amazed when I saw that they'd done a dome show given that they weren't exactly selling out the Sumo/Budokan Hall level venues out left and right. The other 'big draw' I referenced was for his fight with Saku. But that could just as easily have been a paper crowd. Interesting that you mention Akiyama because he definitely has more 15000+ draws under his belt than Funaki, yet apparently doesn't have significant HOF support from Japan. Also worth pondering: why Minoru Suzuki, who had a couple big wins and has done way more in pro wrestling, apparently isn't getting lobbied for by Meltzer's people in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 The other 'big draw' I referenced was for his fight with Saku. But that could just as easily have been a paper crowd. IIRC the official number was heavily inflated. It also should be remembered that the New Year's Eve show is K-1's WrestleMania and featured fights with Kid Yamamoto, Bob Sapp, Masato and Musashi, all of whom were probably more responsible for drawing fans than Funaki who had been out of the fight game for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 I don't know if the number opposite Sakuraba was inflated. But the number listed on prowrestlinghistory.com was 25K, which isn't mind boggling giving Sak's drawing power over the years. Perhaps people try to put over the TV rating. Again, there were lots of strong ones over the years. How off the charts was Saku vs Funaki compared to other big TV ratings? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 I was going by the Wiki number which is just under 48000. Which is apparently a paper number. So now we're left with wondering how Dave's Japan connections happened to overlap with the Funaki Fan Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/superca...amite.html#2007 Dynamite!! 2007 December 31, 2007 in Osaka, Japan Kyocera Dome drawing 25,000 Shown live on TBS (14.7) Could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Wasn't the Sakuraba fight after he was inducted? A lot of Dave's connections are in the press, right? They were extremely supportive of Pancrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Perhaps people try to put over the TV rating. Again, there were lots of strong ones over the years. How off the charts was Saku vs Funaki compared to other big TV ratings? It wasn't even the highest rated fight of the night in the worst rated K-1 New Year's Eve show ever up to that point in time and that's without any direct competition from Pride. So it wasn't off any charts. But OJ's right the fight was after he was inducted. I suppose it means something that he had enough name value that he could headline a New Year's Eve show years after his prime even though it was a sad spectacle and a ratings flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted April 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Prowrestlinghistory gets data from Meltzer so I trust it over the "official" attendance every time. And good catch OJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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