Jingus

Bullshit. Mark Henry stayed on national television for another two decades. PN News vanished to sparsely-attended outlaw indy shows. The only time he ever showed up in a big promotion in America again was his brief tenure as one of Da Baldies, and he wasn't exactly setting the world on fire then either.

Browsing through a few Cannonball Grizzly matches on Youtube: I think Grizzly Redwood has more devastating offense. PN News in the 21st century has a bad case of "oh, seriously, how do you even expect the other guy to sell that bullshit?" when it comes to his gingerly-applied love-tap strikes. And he does a ton of stalling, his matches appear to mostly be really slowly-paced. Although he does occasionally take a decent bump or two. Not the worst ever, but still not very good.

At that time, they had SO MANY title changes that nobody ever really knew what to expect. They were addicted to constantly doing big swerves, most of which were pretty carefully kept quiet; you didn't get all the spoilers you do nowadays. Also, this was the seventh time that year that the belt had changed hands. And with Russo booking, the results of every show often looked like he'd flipped a coin to decide each finish. Considering that he lost the title the next night on Raw, there wasn't much to remember.

Most of Punk's stuff always looked fine to me. The only thing I consistently had a problem with was the Go2sleep, which he seemed to botch on a near-weekly basis. When he had to pick up people who were much bigger than him, the move usually looked like shit. All too often the knee strike was an obvious airball, coming nowhere near the other guy's head.

I started joshi with Manami, and had no problems getting into her matches and getting further into the style.

Fair enough... but then the answer is Tiger Jeet Singh, and man that's just an unpleasant and boring person to chose for #1 at anything. Astoundingly awful performances from shitty indy guys can shock, horrify, and delight us in ways that we didn't know were even possible. It's like comparing any given Michael Bay or M. Night Shyamalan movie to something like The Room or Birdemic: the former are mostly just tiresome and depressing in how many people actually paid to see the damn things, while the latter are totally unexpected miracles that're made of some kind of previously-unknown alien feces which are somehow much shittier than our Earthling shit, breaking all known laws of physics in their impossibly-pure 9000% turdiness.

There's folks on here who know MUCH more about joshi than I do, so I won't make any specific match recommendations. But to those who do the recommending: I'd say don't start with Nagayo/Matsumoto or Hokotu/Kandori. Those always seem to be the first ones recommended, despite the fact that they do tend to rely rather heavily upon knowledge of the style of the time and other intangibles. Start him off easy with like a mid-level match with, like, Manami versus an Inoue from some non-dome-show instead. Probably something less than half an hour long, too. (I wish that Aja Kong vs Chapparita Asari match that happened on Raw of all damn places was still online, I love hearing Vince audibly cringe on commentary at the brutal physicality that he clearly wasn't expecting.)

It's not a defense. (I just said I find him average and forgettable.) I'm genuinely interested in the difference between how a media product's audience has a different perception of quality than many of those who work in said media. Not just in wrestling, in various other arts as well; but I always find it fascinating how the fans and the creators can feel so differently about the one thing which connects them. Back to the Kane example, for one: it would be pretty safe to say that most people on this board like watching Big Show more than Kane when it comes to picking a giant, right? Yet Big Show himself openly claims that Kane's a better wrestler than him. And the dichotomy between the two viewpoints (and some fans' unwillingness to give any weight to the performers' opinions) is something that I've found intriguing for a long time. Was it? I wondered about that too, what exactly happened?

Also, unrelated subject: what the hell was the deal with the Hebners all getting fired from WWE, anyway? That always felt strange, because it seemed like details on the story were few and far between, and "selling merchandise without permission" just seems like a terribly odd way for a seeming-lifer like Earl to get canned.

Those who hate Earl so much: what's your explanation for why practically every wrestler who's ever worked with him has nothing but good things to say about the guy? I mean, not counting Montreal ethics stuff, just talking about the in-ring work. I don't think I've ever heard one of his coworkers complain about what he does in there. (Personally, I've always found him to be perfectly average and mostly forgettable.)

I just think that's too limiting on the possible discussion. It's like having a thread dedicated to bad movies, but the only ones allowed in the discussion are big Hollywood films that got a wide theatrical release. Diving into the more obscure stuff provides a look at ASTOUNDING shittiness, the type of insanely awful spectacle which just doesn't exist in the big leagues.

90% of this thread has been people naming perfectly-competent wrestlers that they just happen to dislike. It's like a Worst Movie Ever thread where The Phantom Menace keeps getting picked. Even guys like Erik Watts have had plenty of passable matches that are just forgotten or ignored. Try THIS on for size, then come back and tell me with a straight face that Kane or Sabu or Brian Christopher is the "worst wrestler ever":

Yeah, exactly. Similarly, there've been a couple of times when I've slipped on ice and fallen right onto frozen concrete, and might've easily broken various parts of me if I hadn't had the implanted conditioning about "when you're falling, do THIS in order to land safely".

It amazes me that this is a world where some people will still defend Big Daddy, yet a guy who takes a buncha bumps and does moonsaults in almost every match can possibly be considered the laziest of all time.

One cute moment was right at the pinfall: first, Kawada goes for the most personally-invasive cover of all time, literally laying on top of Misawa like he's raping him. (You can do all the Freudian analysis in the world of that bit.) But more importantly, right after the three count: he leaps up and raises his arms in triumph. Hurling his clenched fists towards the heavens, as if trying to punch God in the face. He never did that in his OTHER victories over Misawa, either in 6/9/95 or in the 97 CC finals. Before, there was always some excuse that kept it from being a totally decisive victory: Taue did most of the work for Kawada, or Akiyama bungled the match for Misawa, or Misawa was already exhausted from wrestling previously in the evening. After those pinfall victories, Kawada just sat there with a rather blank look on his face. But here, for once, Toshiaki straight-up kicked Mitsuharu's ass, which had never happened before; and after the ref counts three there's an exultant feeling of "FINALLY~!" in Kawada's body language that looks absolutely real.

Agreed. Or do the rematch at Survivor Series or the Rumble, anything more than waiting a pointlessly long time just to squander Taker and Brock against each other in Dallas. I don't think there's much casual fan interest in a Wrestlemania rematch between the two of them, not after Taker already lost and the Streak's already been broken. Give the fans the Taker/Sting dream match they've been fantasizing about for twenty years now. And have Brock work with a younger guy (I think Lesnar/Wyatt could be an interesting matchup, although they'd have to work hard to make Bray look like he had any chance of winning) so that his very limited, very expensive super-rub is given to someone he hasn't already had multiple feuds with.

I don't see any reason to not have Nikki beat AJ's record. The old record-holder no longer works here, and is highly unlikely to ever return. Give the bragging rights to someone who's currently employed. You can let anyone beat her after the record's broken, and then that puts over BOTH Nikki for having kept the belt so long AND whomever beats her, because they defeated the best-champion-ever.

I might care if any wrestling "hall of fame" actually mattered. They really don't. Meltzer's is the closest to being legit, and even it is something run entirely off one guy's website.

Several different things come into play here. Firstly, I'd assume that these are probably the only matches on the card where guys are using hidden foreign objects; Baba would probably make damn sure nobody else was doing it, so the main event's heat remained unique. Secondly, both those guys had established this as their gimmick in the past; Sheik with the spike, Abby with the fork. It wasn't just Random Johnny Jobber hiding a chain (or worse, the dreaded Invisible Weapon) in a meaningless midcard match. Thirdly, the victims of the spot were the Funks, a couple of guys who were already 100% over with the crowd as beloved and respected heroes. The audience cares more about them being beaten up than Random Young Boy #37. Fourthly, the execution of the spots was handled in a very serious manner: the babyfaces sold their asses off, bled all over the place, probably convulsed like a seizure victim in Terry's case, and the heels were exquisite in their timing of when to merely tease the weapons and when to actually use them. You don't get anything near that level of artistry when it's one lazy southern undercarder whacking another of the same with a chain-wrapped fist, and then stopping the action dead in its tracks for minutes on end so that he can play hide-the-chain with the referee (who is generally made to look even more blind, deaf, and stupid in these spots than usual).

Gotta love people complaining about me not writing long point-by-point posts, and then when I do write one it's followed by a string of nonsense like that.

Quit being bitchy. Bumping techniques are originally based on legitimate breakfalls, and being trained in that stuff can (and HAS, in my case) help protect your body in real life if you ever have an accidental fall.

C'mon, last two hours and it's just me and Si in here, someone join us. We've got lucha! And more lucha! And then after that, we change things up completely with some lucha! http://taima.tv/r/gwemarathon

My in-ring training was pretty rudimentary, but simply being trained to bump and protect myself has saved me on a couple of slippery occasions. When you randomly trip and fall and you've got like half a second before you hit the ground, having Bumping 101 permanently programmed into your muscle memory can save you from cracking your skull open with the simplest of instincts like "tuck your chin" and "put your arms Here". Any competent grappling or MMA dojo will teach you the same thing, I'd recommend that everyone get some instruction on how to do breakfalls, you never know when it might come in really handy.

Including the parts where he talks about Shawn showing up visibly stoned to training class? It wasn't exactly a fairy-tale white-washed version of history. He spends two whole chapters telling various detailed stories about Shawn training and mentoring them. Including stuff like "and then he showed us how to make a blade, although nobody but Kendrick ended up getting good color that night" and "then he swore that none of us would have firecrackers shoved up our asses, after we were there in Japan and saw the infamous FMW Anal Bomb Match" and other stuff that there's just no way that the WWE office would invent. Any links to, or direct quotes from, these contradictory interviews you mention?

Aw, for fuck's sake... fine, here: Southern bullshit sucks. By which, I very specifically mean, the sort of extended stalling and bad acting and agonizingly unfunny "comedy" that too many lousy, lazy workers rely on to fill time instead of wrestling. For example: whenever a heel kills five minutes of a match playing hide-and-seek with a weapon. "But I thought that was hilarious when Jerry Lawler did it in this one match with Bret Hart!" Yeah, because 1.Lawler's the best at it; 2.you're easily amused (lots of people don't like these spots, period), and most importantly 3.it was just that ONE time. Imagine working shows where nearly every match is full of stuff like that, basically providing extended excuses for every guy on the card guy to avoid contact and not have to WRESTLE for most of the match. That's one of my biggest problems with this stuff, workers lean on it to avoid having to actually put any significant physical effort into their performances. (And on the shows I worked, you'd constantly get lazy never-was veterans preaching about how this stuff was "what the people really wanted to see", while "working" in front of crowds so miniscule that Jerry Jarrett would've cancelled the show if the house was ever THIS bad.) I still remember the first time I ever saw the ask-the-audience spot: watching a rental tape of Starrcade 1986, in the year 1999. Tommy Young turned around and actually asked the crowd "Did (heel) pull (face)'s hair?" and yes, of course I popped. I'd never seen it before; and everything looks cool when it's new to you and feels innovative. Years later, after having DONE that spot AS a referee on countless occasions: no, it sucks. It slows the match down and encourages the wrestlers to stall. It also encourages that terrible "we're part of the show!" feeling among fans, albeit in a blue-balling manner; when you ask them Did This Guy Cheat and then you don't do anything ABOUT the cheating, then the fans get angry at the official rather than getting angry at the heel. Please trust me, in the modern age, this is the consistent outcome of ask-the-crowd spots almost every single time. I've seen it happen FAR too often, and it's generally nothing more than a waste of time and a distraction from the action. And the "comedy" spots, oh the "comedy" spots! I honestly couldn't tell you how often I saw the same ones repeated over and over again, in the same towns, sometime on the same goddamn night. And, so many of them rely on having the heel act like they are literally a retarded person. The one where the babyface challenges the heel to play a game of drop-down leapfrog, which ends with the heel flinging themselves out of the ring in a really contrived manner? Awful. The one where they start a criss-cross spot, the babyface stops running, but the heel inexplicably keeps going for the length of a marathon? Ridiculous. They're spots which seem like they're intended to make a toddler laugh, they make the bad guys look like harmless buffoons who couldn't possibly pose any threat to the heroes, and once again it's a poor substitute for spending the same amount of time with guys punching each other in the face. And no, the Memphis territory's longevity isn't due to its tolerance for goofy bullshit in the ring. They had a bunch of other variables in their favor,:from super-low expenses (especially payroll), to working relationships/talent exchanges with many other companies, to the fact that most of their core stars remained loyal and were never poached by the big national companies, to the simple luck of having a good television deal and never getting their show cancelled out from under them like had happened to so many other promotions. And even then, all that wasn't enough. They went out of business like everyone else, they just took a little longer; and remember it was a little longer, less than a decade overall, by 1997 they were dead and buried. None of the other indy promotions that ran Memphis since then count as a "territory", they certainly never ran the loop in Nashville, Louisville, and the other traditional old CWA/USWA towns.