Jingus

OJ Simpson. They still show the Naked Gun movies. Of course, it also helps that 1.OJ didn't strangle a little kid, and 2.his scenes in the movies almost entirely consist of Nordberg getting the shit beaten out of him by the whole universe. ...I just now realized what an odd thing it was to have a black guy named Nordberg.

If this were a thread about female workers at DVDVR, it would be closed already.

Exactly, if that isn't already a part of the policy, I'd wonder why it isn't. Especially after the Signature and Astin deals, you'd think the WWE would be much more paranoid of getting burned by their workers getting whatever drugs they wanted from professional candymen. My point is, since the WWE tends to keep so much of the process shrouded in secrecy, it leaves guys like Rey an opening to make up whatever story they want. He could've tested positive for heroin, and still publicly claim the same thing he is now. It would blackball him from the WWE, sure. For now. If Sable went back, anyone could. And if the company had fucked him over like that, he could retire from the amount of money he could win in a breach-of-contract and defamation lawsuit. But that's beside the point, cuz this is Rey Freaking Misterio Junior we're talking about here. He's one of the biggest stars in the world, one of the most enduringly popular and beloved wrestlers in the entire business. You think TNA wouldn't have a foot-long erection at the thought of signing him? He could go work anywhere he wanted to, and name his own price, and not have to worry about the brutal WWE road schedule shortening his career and/or life. To me, it sounded more like a dude who's probably guilty of what they said he is, and is trying to Kurt Angle his way out of trouble with a bullshit public story.

Or he's just lying to cover his ass. The WWE never did announce exactly what drug he tested positive for. Then again, this is the WWE we're talking about; not like they're averse to screwing someone over when they feel like it. Then again, if Rey really did have a legal prescription for this drug and was indeed manipulated into failing a test he should've passed, you'd think he would be making a hell of a lot more noise about his innocence. That's the kind of thing you could sue the company for, and win, if you're truly in the right.

It was so brief that they didn't really have time to do anything; they only had two PPV matches, and one of those was in the King of the Ring tournament and only a couple minutes long. But even nine years later, I remember the run-ins and beatdowns from that feud as being abnormally brutal, with both men giving and receiving beatings that you never saw them pull off with any other opponents. It made me totally forget, for just a brief shining moment, that Rikishi's gimmick was "Silly Dancing Minority With A Big Smelly Ass".

I agree with most of the rest of your points (except for Cena outbumping Rock, I always liked Rock's ridiculously theatrical speedball bumping), but this one I must point out an exception to. Remember Rikish's feud with Val Venis in 2000? That was one of those bizarre chemistry miracles where both guys suddenly jumped up to a whole new level above their usual standards.

Is that who that was? Weird, cuz I did see the stories in a few mainstream news outlets. But the places I saw it didn't identify who they wrestled as, just gave their shoot names, so I didn't know it was them.

Most likely. You have no idea how much of a life I don't have. Dragging things back on track: I'd take Regal over Finlay. Fit is a better carrier of green kids, yes. But I think Regal had higher highs (HE DID DRUGS LOL) in terms of his best matches. While Finlay's had plenty of really fun stuff in his middle age during his best days as a heel on Smackdown, I don't think I liked that better than Regal's top matches during his WCW run, especially his TV title days. Also Regal was way, way better in terms of mic skills, facial expressions, and other non-workrate intangibles.

You know the weirdest thing here? I would rate Hogan over Dusty. You apparently like him less and I apparently like him more. Why the hell are we even having this argument?

Aside from that, if it would have an effect on Rey, it should have an effect on every other top wrestler who ever used drugs. Which is, of course, just about all of them. Mick Foley and CM Punk are about the only world champions that I wouldn't say have definitely touched an illegal substance. And even with them, really, we only have their own word that they've never done it themselves.

But is it so exactly the same as "lock up, drop toe hold, front facelock", the exact same sequence of events at the very beginning of every single major Japanese singles match he had in the past two decades? Sure, wrestlers do the same spots. When it's portrayed as "this is how the wrestler wins their matches", like Bret's five moves of doom or Flair's attacking the knee, I don't have a problem with it. When it's "well, this is what the people expect" like Flair getting tossed off the top or Hogan running through identical chain wrestling spots, I find it contrived in a negative way. It's not the worst thing in the world, in fact it's rather a silly thing to even have this big an argument over, but it is something that annoys me. And I don't see how you can possibly prove that I'm objectively wrong by being annoyed in that manner. For a guy who condescendingly refers to my statements as "bizarre" or "ridiculous", you sure aren't afraid to throw out some that I would categorize with the same adjectives. Okay, so you hate Nova, and all those who do the same rip-off puroresu wannabe style, and all the fanboys who eat it up. Fine. But that's not real innovation. That's the fans wrongly using the word "innovative" in a bastardized form. Don't get stuck on semantics here. Without innovation, without replacing some of the old with the new, without change, anything will stagnate and die. Also, how is anything on earth more contrived than Hogan's standard Hulking Up series? You can argue that it gets massive pops and is incredibly over, but I don't see how it's more realistic than anything else in wrestling. You have to go to Ryuma Go matches to find anything which is further removed from logic. "Contrived" isn't necessarily an invective all by itself, not in a fake sport where you can grab a guy's wrist and gently push him and not only does he go sprinting into the ropes, but he bounces off them and comes back towards you in a straight line. I haven't watched Rodman/Malone recently, no. For the very good reason that I generally try to avoid re-watching matches that I fucking hated on previous viewings. I've seen that one at least two or three times, and it always sucked. It was plodding, slowly paced even by Hogan's WCW standards, went far too long, was in the wrong spot on the card, the wrong team went over, and oh yeah Rodman was so stumbling drunk that he could barely do anything. What of Hogan's WCW matches were not bad? That would be the shorter list. As for the awful ones: well, the one with Warrior is the obvious standout. There's also at least half of the Flair matches. And most of the Piper matches. Most of the Savage matches. Most of the Giant matches. Most of the Sting matches. All of the Beefcake matches. All of the Dungeon of Doom matches. Anything he ever did in the same ring with Kevin Nash. And all of the non-pinfall matches which regardless ended with someone getting pinned, which happened at least three different times that I can think of. I'd love a specific argument as to how they didn't suck. And I'm not even kidding. If you somehow saw something in those bouts that I didn't, I'd legitimately appreciate an understanding of a different POV which didn't think they were crap. I'd like to know how you came to those conclusions. As for the Shawn comment: firstly, I didn't say "it was better". I said "I liked it better". I usually attempt to avoid phrasing my subjective opinions as if they were objective fact. Secondly, the main reason I said anything was because of your use of the phrase "if we're being honest", which struck me as an odd and somewhat pretentious thing to say. How many people on this board do you think are deceitfully arguing their dishonest opinion?

It wasn't just a routine, it was the exact same spot every time. Initial lock up, drop toe hold and a floatover into the front facelock. Shocked the hell out of me the first time I saw it, but with repeated exposure watching him do the exact same thing with the very first spot in all these matches got old quick. I feel like you're speaking a foreign language here, man. Innovation is bad? Are you saying, conversely, that everyone should always do the exact same thing forever? You don't think there's a reason why Hogan got more and more heavily booed as the 90s went on, before his heel turn? He absolutely has had a boatload of terrible matches, and I can't imagine any possible argument for the Malone/Rodman match not being not only an actively bad match from a workrate standpoint but also detrimental to WCW's business.

I would dispute this. Hogan had plenty of fucking terrible matches, especially in his WCW run. Were you the guy who claimed that the Rodman/Malone debacle was actually a great match? Hogan's surprise matwork impressed me... the first time I saw it. When he busted out the chain wrestling in his match with Muta, I was shocked and marked out. But then he did the exact same sequence in damn near every big match he had in Japan from the 90s onward. When he does the same thing every time, it suggests less that he's technically sound and more that it's the only trick he can remember.

Aw c'mon Loss, don't soft-pedal it, tell us what you really think. In seriousness, good writeup on the psychology of the feud. I think them delaying Jericho's re-debut seemed like more of "Vince changed his mind again" syndrome rather than any deliberate plan, but the rest of it is spot on. I agree with this, but partly because Liger was one of those odd cases where Benoit just did not click with his opponent in terms of chemistry. Kinda the same thing that happened with most of his matches with Eddy, too. Benoit was king of the 3-4 stars match: usually very damn good, but rarely reaching the truly great five-star plateau. True dat, yo. Dynamite and Sayama had amazing chemistry together, to the point where I think some folks actually underrate their matches today. But the Kid had a fairly limited number of people whom he could get that level of performance out of. Having seen a little of his Stampede work, it seemed like he could do some cool shit with Bret, but struggled to match up with most of his other matchups. Of course, part of that might be due to Dynamite being a sociopathic prick who delighted in stiffing his opponents, which is usually not an atmosphere conducive to a spirit of cooperation.

We're sure it's for real this time? As you said yourself, it wouldn't be the first time that Ian pulled this trick. Though there are some pathetic little details, like ticket refunds and saying that they've lost their internet access, which make it feel more plausible that they really have gone under. Especially annoying for me since a few of my friends recently had tryouts and got positive reactions which were supposed to lead to full-time spots on the roster. IWA ain't ROH, but it was still miles above your average indy in terms of exposure and getting your name out there. Oh you cocktease. C'mon, who was this?

He still tends to work longer matches than the WWE is used to. When's the last time that any Raw match went the length that your average Danielson match tends to? Sure he's capable of doing shorter stuff, his old Velocity match against Cena was one good example, but it still makes me wonder why the WWE wants him since he's so completely the opposite of the tall tanned steroid monsters that they usually prefer. You could say the same about Cabana. Sure, he's not the same level as the Dragon, but he had a goldmine of talent which the WWE never even gave a second glance. Lots of talented guys have gone there and either been screwed or failed on their own. But the most ridiculous of those three names, Ziggler, was stuck on a guy who had been with the company for years and was perceived as having lots of potential. And they're pushing him. Even after his early wellness bust, he was put right back in the same spot like it never happened. He's not been treated like a jobber. I was talking in terms of match styles. Lots of people aren't fond of Regal's WWE work; I think it was Coey who once called his Mania match with RVD "the worst real match" he'd ever seen. He didn't mesh well with a lot of the more Sportz Entertainment style of workers. Danielson's more adaptable than Regal with a bigger bag of tricks, but they're still similar in many ways.

Hell, if he gets anything that normal, it'll be a sigh of relief. This is a company which thinks that names like Dolph Ziggler or Zack Ryder or Braden Walker are all great money-drawing monikers. I do seriously wonder why the WWE would even want the guy in the first place. He's about the size of a Guerrero but with none of the muscle mass and very pale skin. Despite being a cruiserweight by WWE standards, he doesn't do any flashy flying moves. He's best known for putting on extremely long, workrate-heavy matches that tend to rely on a lot of matwork. His entire gimmick is that he doesn't need a gimmick, he's a wrestler dammit and he wrestles, etcetera. Now, what about any of that screams "Sports Entertainer"? Even his stylistic ancestor, Regal, spent long years trying to find a way to fit in with the WWE, and he's several inches taller and has a foreign accent to lean on. I understand that some of the wrestlers and most of the road agents would probably mark for Danielson's work, but they're not the ones who control the hiring process. What does the company that runs Raw expect to get out of American Dragon in a WWE environment?

Yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that to make a specific point. I did it a few weeks back at DVDVR, when some goof claimed that Candice Michelle wasn't really all that bad a worker. He supplied a Youtube link to back up his case. I watched said match, used the handy Youtube timer for stopwatch purposes, and proceeded to rip it apart for all the blown spots and incompetent bumps and general awkwardness. If you're doing this sort of nitpicking to provide evidence for your argument, I don't see the problem. Hell, I wish people would do this more often. I think one of the bigger negatives among this particular extended family of posters is a tendency towards vagueness and lack of detail in some of the debates. Way too often you'll find hazy statements like "he brings more to the table" or "this guy works smarter" or whatever, without any reasoning supplied as to why that's the case.

So, you're searching for hidden esoteric meaning in an incredibly simple sentence? "I like Shawn's match with Undertaker more than any Rockers match I've ever seen." What about that needs to be further explained? Where are the super-secret hidden meanings that I'm trying to covertly convey? What possible other unstated baggage does such a statement bring with it? How is that not clear?

"Being honest"? What the hell does that mean? I think that Shawn's match with Taker this year at Mania was better than any Rockers match that I've ever seen, and with that opinion I'm being honest.

That's something which always bothers me. All too often, you see the phrase "broken-down" thrown into such statements. Well no shit, he's broken down because he was doing all that crazy shit that you marked out for. Jeff Hardy and other spot wrestlers tend to get the same treatment sometimes as well. That's where my subjective perspective departs from the norm, because I was never convinced. Even as a young kid, I never went through a phase where I thought wrestling was real. So to me, Bret was just another guy bragging about how good he was. And I've never been a fan of babyfaces with egotistical characters, there's few things which annoy me more than a guy who goes around constantly reminding people of how cool he is. Which is another thing that bugged me. Sure, the WWF's definition of a "technical wrestler" is a bit different than most places. But still, Bret did a lot of punching. Punching and punching and punching and then some stomping for variety. Listening to the announcers gush about Bret's scientific skills while he kept resorting to fisticuffs, not an ideal situation to make me admire the guy's technique. Same thing with Kurt Angle even at his peak, too.

Perhaps that wasn't the best way to phrase it. Vader made small changes in his style depending on circumstances, but he very often worked a fairly simple Insert Fiery Babyface Here type of formula. Big Van beats the living fuck out of them with his power moves and brutal strikes, they make a few well-timed comebacks where he bumps around and makes them look like Superman, so forth and so on. He could do the same match with Sting or Flair or Hogan or Inoki with only relatively slight adjustments for personal style. And he was quite possibly the best in the world at that sort of David/Goliath match. Sting carried his end of the load, certainly; I don't wanna say that he was just a warm body thrown in whom Vader worked his typical match around. But, well, I do feel that way at least a little. Sting did very well as the Fiery Babyface who was inserted here, but it still came across like those were Vader's matches and Sting was along for the ride. I do agree that Sting/Vader had freaky chemistry together, as personally I think those were the most fun matches that either guy had. But Vader has a lot more competition for that particular title than Sting does, imo. Vader had classics with, shit, to list them would damn near be to list half the guys he ever feuded with. Who else did Sting wrestle which even came close to that level? Flair, Cactus, maybe Muta or Rude, a few tag matches with the Steiners and the like, and... who else? His own Great Matches list is rather shorter.

When did Sting ever do anything like that with anyone else, though? The Vader/Sting matches were much more similar to Vader's other matches with different people than they were to Sting's other matches.

Ooooh, you devious fuck. I honestly don't know. Hansen had a much longer prime, and was still having classics with Baba's boys past the same age where Vader had faded away into obese obscurity. But Vader was a better carrier; I can't imagine Stan getting the same matches out of, say, a man called Sting like the ones Vader did. But as great as Vader's best stuff was, I don't think I've ever seen him do anything I loved quite as much as Hansen's best matches with Kobashi. I honestly can't decide. Maybe I'll go watch some of their matches and report back later. Tough call, but I'm going with Eddy here. He could do damn near everything Rey could, aside from the very craziest of bumps and dives. But he also had a much wider range of stuff he was very good at. He was better in bloody brawls than Rey, better mat wrestler, better talker, better Sportz Entertainer both in the modern sense and in old-school goofy stooging. Also, while Rey might be slightly better as the sympathetic babyface, the few times he was a heel he was never any good at it. I'm still an HBK mark, dammit. Bret was very good; in fact, I probably like my favorite Bret match (vs Owen at Mania) better than any single bout that Shawn ever had. But Bret would go through plenty of down periods where he'd get stuck in a rut and was just going through the motions. By-The-Numbers Bret Hart was still better than the majority of wrestlers out there, admittedly. However I don't think Shawn ever really had the same problem. Sure he caused more backstage havoc, and it's disheartening to still run into people who will dog his ringwork because of the power plays and tantrums that the Klique threw back in the day. In a discussion of in-ring skills, should that even matter? Michaels is one of the few guys in the WWE who seemed like he was determined to go out and have the best match on the show, every single night. One might disagree with his philosophy of what a "great match" is (the number of people I've seen who will claim that he is a flat-out bad worker is mindboggling, COUGHwkoCOUGH) but there should be no denial of the nearly superhuman effort he puts into it. For those of us who enjoy the HBK formula, such as myself, it's always a pleasure. Well. Almost always. Sometimes he'll run into a Chris Masters or a Kozlov and be just as stymied as everyone else, but nobody's perfect.

Daizee Haze has used it for years, but you'll get plenty of people who say that women's wrestling doesn't "count". I think Tank is using it in NWA Anarchy now as well.