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Everything posted by Graham Crackers
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Yeah, my favorite hide-the-object moment from Lawler is in the cage match against Kerry when he spits the chain out of his mouth and wraps it around his fist. It makes him look devious.
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I love Necro Butcher. I don't have enough notes on me to make a complete case for him right now but I will say that he's a lock for my ballot. His range is far more impressive than a lot of people realize. I love everything he did during the ROH vs CZW feud, which is my favorite thing that American indy wrestling has ever produced. He was more consistent in indy dream matches than others because he always played to his greatest strength by wrestling as an underdog. When called upon to be an aggressive heel he was more than capable like in his tag team with Brodie Lee. He even had a great scuzzy US indy version of the classic Tenryu vs rookie match when he wrestled Sami Callihan back in 2008.
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I don't think that's a question that should have an answer that is set in stone but it's definitely something to discuss. We talked about it a bit on WKO: http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/index.php?showtopic=5206
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Like Sangre Chicana he's a charismatic wrestler who excels at milking big moments. Their 1986 match against each other is incredible and sums up everything that's great about both of them. I enjoyed his big 2000s hair matches. I'll take that kind of spectacle built around a banged up old man over most of the big Wrestlemania dream matches of the last decade.
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Here's somebody I will definitely be acquainting myself with before the end of this poll. At this point I've just seen his AWA stuff which I loved. I'm looking forward to the Portland 80s set and checking out some of his 70s matches as well.
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I gushed about Jerry Lawler in his thread but in his best moments Sangre Chicana out Kings the King. I feel like Lawler goes higher because there is just so much Jerry Lawler out there for us to enjoy but peak vs peak I'll take Sangre Chicana.
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I feel pretty comfortable calling him the second best Japanese wrestler of the 1980s behind Fujiwara. He was the catalyst for major stylistic shifts in both All Japan and New Japan. He's more of a pro-style brawler but I think you could even credit him as an influence on shoot style (the Choshu vs Fujinami matches from 1983 have the earliest realistically sold/blocked cross armbreakers in wrestling). His biggest flaw seems to be that he wasn't as good when called upon to wrestle longer matches. That's only really problem for his All Japan period where he was booked into those longer matches (against Jumbo and Flair). In New Japan he always wrestled his kind of match which is the kind of straight forward and intense wrestling I love to watch. I'd like to check out some more of what he was doing in the 1990s. I thought he was great in 1990, during the WAR feud in 1993, and during the 1996 G1. It looks like it was a good decade for him although obviously not at the level of what he was doing in the 1980s.
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Negro Casas: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/13725-el-dandy-vs-negro-casas-cmll-070392/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20464-el-hijo-del-santo-vs-negro-casas/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/13403-el-hijo-del-santo-vs-negro-casas-uwa-010592/ Sangre Chicana: vs MS-1 discussed extensively in this thread: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21120-disc-1/ vs Satanico http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21127-disc-8/?p=5573427 vs Perro Aguayo: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21124-disc-5/?p=5568744 Perro Aguayo: vs Sangre Chicana: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21124-disc-5/?p=5568744 vs Villano III: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21122-disc-3/ vs Sangre Chicana vs Villano III vs Faraon: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21122-disc-3/
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The only flaw I see in Satanico is that we don't have enough footage of his peak. Otherwise I can't say I've ever seen him have a bad match. In fact, the footage we do have is so excellent that I think he's a dark horse number 1 pick for me. Satanico vs Gran Cochisse should be required viewing for every wrestling fan. I wrote this for the 80s lucha set:
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Major number 1 candidate for me and I know I'm not alone even if it isn't a majority opinion. I find myself hooked every time I watch him perform. He is capable of a wild violent brawl, strategic mat wrestling, and even comedy. He is great as a supporting player in a tag and fantastic when pushed into the spotlight. His selling is incredible. Probably some of the most realistic selling I've ever seen. Just about every one of his opponents comes out of a match with him looking better, even if they didn't win. I think a good approach for someone new to Fujiwara is to check out his big NJPW matches first and then move onto his UWF stuff. His 1989 UWF matches with Maeda and Yamazaki are 1980s MOTDCs and for me he is the star of the NJPW vs UWF feud in 1986. That's probably my favorite feud in the history of wrestling so I mean that as high praise.
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This is a really good example of an older Misawa match I think you'd like: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25951-mitsuharu-misawa-vs-tahuma-sano-noah-spring-navigation-042807/ It's not very long and it's very focused. And there's a youtube link in the thread. I'd actually really like to read your thoughts on this match: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25897-mitsuharu-misawa-yoshinari-ogawa-vs-akitoshi-saito-masao-inoue-noah-navigation-over-the-date-line-091004/
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Lawler will probably be my highest ranked American. I'm tempted to call him a number 1 contender because I love his best matches and feuds so much but I doubt I'll end up actually putting him at number 1. My conflict is determining how much value I'm going to place on his range. I appreciate that Lawler has a great emotional range. He can be fun, funny, competitive, serious, hateful, violent, brave, or cowardly. He can work big and he can work small. I love him as a babyface and while some don't enjoy it I love him as the cowardly heel, hiding weapons and doing whatever he can to win. The difficulty for me is his lack of range when it comes to the kind of matches he has. One one hand, he is so good at being Jerry Lawler that I like how he handles himself in a mat based encounter. That is, I like that he plays upon the fact that he is limited in that part of his game. He is a brawler and not a grappler and that comes across when his opponents take him to the mat. Those qualities really enhance his matches with Bockwinkel and Martel. On the other hand, I wish he had a mat based match I really loved. The draw against Race is really good but I'm looking for something more than one match where he worked a really good headlock. Sometimes that bothers me and sometimes it doesn't. I guess I have a lot of time to think about that.
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Yeah, when I saw him live it felt like I was in the presence of royalty. It certainly helped that he worked his ass off and performed all of his signature dives in that little New Jersey night club I saw him wrestle in. I don't blame Atlantis and Ultimo Guerrero for taking a night off when I saw them wrestle at an untaped show last year but that's the kind of thing that definitely puts Santo ahead of the pack for me.
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My feelings about Santito are similar to my feelings on Misawa. I can't picture a top ten without him and he could sneak into a top five but I don't see him as a candidate for number 1. He does rely on formula but wow, what an incredible formula. He's easily the best high flyer of all time and he has plenty of classic technical bouts and brawls to boot. His main flaws are that he tends to eat up lesser workers on the mat in title matches, he never fully embraced his heel run, and his time in AAA is disappointing.
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I can't imagine my top ten without him. He could easily make my top five. He's someone who appreciate more and more as time goes on. Before his peak he's still an interesting wrestler to watch, his peak is as good as it gets, and I love him as a broken down old man. His selling is really nuanced and so unlike anyone else. A lot of wrestler will try to no-sell a suplex like Misawa but when they do it it looks like it didn't hurt. Misawa looks like he's pretending it didn't hurt but he's actually in pain behind that facade. His greatest flaw is that he is prone to excess in some matches. This may be a weak defense but the biggest problem with that is that he's better at excess than his opponents. That no-sold half nelson on the floor notwithstanding, Misawa tends to keep selling that he's been mauled late in those matches and when he keeps throwing bombs he does look like he's trying to finish the job. It's Kobashi kicking out over and over, crying, and throwing a bunch of half nelson suplexes that never ever win a match that takes me out of those bouts.
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When I first got into AJPW I loved his early 90s stuff and I liked his Terry Funk match from the 70s so I just assumed that Jumbo was awesome between those two periods. Watching his 80s matches ended up being pretty disappointing because that wasn't the case. Aside from a few gems his matches from before 1986 are worked like NWA style main events but are prone to listlessness and nonsensical bomb trading. The 1986-87 stuff with Choshu is out of this world amazing but his matches outside of that feud left me unimpressed. In 1988 the style falls into place and Jumbo finally looks really good. I think Loss's comment about Hokuto's reputation being based on one great year doesn't sound too far off from how I see Jumbo. I think he was a great worker for three years (1989-1991) and was mediocre to good before that. Those three years are pretty strong despite the fact that he was mostly working with young wrestlers who hadn't quite put it together yet. Still, I can't help but feel like Jumbo would have been better with a really game peer rival (albeit a fresher one than Hansen who he never really clicked with or Tenryu whose feud with Jumbo was getting stale as 1990 began). I wouldn't call him the best in the world at any point during that time period. I still love those early 90s Jumbo matches but I feel like Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Satanico, and El Dandy had much more impressive accomplishments during that same era. I'm not going to act like three great years isn't an accomplishment but some of the other GOAT candidates have lengthier and meatier peak runs. Jumbo is a top 100 lock but I don't see him as a top ten guy or anything like that. I'm not even sure if he still makes my top ten Japanese wrestlers list anymore.
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His major leap forward as a worker comes during Choshu's time in AJPW. 1988 and 89 produced better matches because that's when the AJPW style as we know it really takes form but his personality has already taken shape by the time that the big 1986 tags start happening.
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[2007-04-28-NOAH-Spring Navigation] Mitsuharu Misawa vs Tahuma Sano
Graham Crackers replied to Loss's topic in April 2007
I think it's probably this one but I agree that they're not too far away from each other. -
I always get ridiculously excited when somebody deadlifts out of an arm scissors.
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Gaps I'd like to fill for a project like this: European grappling: I've loved what little I've seen but I don't feel even remotely qualified to say who the best workers were. My favorite Euro match so far is Breaks vs Street and it's definitely the best 70s match I've seen. OJ's threads are a constant reminder of how much more I need to watch. Late 90s RINGS: I've seen everything from 1992-1994 but I've only seen some of the heavily pimped stuff that came later. Volk Han will definitely do well on my list and I like Tamura a lot. I suspect Kohsaka's standing may improve after more watching. 80s WWF wrestling: I watched maybe a dozen 80s WWF matches a long time ago and I didn't like it so I never dug any further. I'm not expecting my mind to be blown but I feel like I need to give that stuff a better chance. Tons of pre 1980 wrestling: I've seen stuff I liked and stuff I didn't like much at all in this category but I figure if we're doing "all-time" I need to have a better understanding of what's out there. Deciding how much footage is enough to judge a wrestler is hard but I'm flexible depending on the quality. Otherwise, I feel like the next couple 80s sets will help to fill out my other gaps (Portland, Puerto Rico). I've seen quite a few of the big matches from Crockett though it'd be nice to have a better idea of week to week quality.
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Marvin is a great spot worker with a great sense of timing in tag matches. NOAH junior tags are almost always spotfests but those that involve Marvin tend to have a better rhythm. He has spectacular offense and he's a great bumper as well. I enjoy that Briscoes match for what it is but I wouldn't call it great and I certainly don't blame anyone for not getting into it. Imagining that match without Marvin in it is a nightmare. His hair vs mask match against Tiger Emperor is his best singles match. I'd definitely take that over the vast majority of GHC junior title matches. As for tags: Kobashi, Marvin and KENTA vs Misawa, Marufuji, and Kotaro 7/24/04 is better than just about every junior tag from 2004 and is a good showcase for Marvin. It's also one of my favorite 6 man tags from that year. KENTA and Marufuji vs Kotaro and Marvin from 6/1/04 is my favorite KENTAFuji match against other juniors. I pretty much dislike every NOAH junior tag that doesn't involve NJPW juniors or have Marvin in it. This isn't amazing but I think it's clearly a step above most NOAH junior tags.
- 8 replies
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- NOAH
- September 12
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I think this is the key.
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[2009-03-01-NOAH-Second Navigation] KENTA vs Katsuhiko Nakajima
Graham Crackers replied to Loss's topic in March 2009
Man, you guys should have seen the controversy on DVDVR's purotopia board when this match happened. Just seeing this thread is giving me flashbacks. There was an awful thread with people on both sides arguing he same points over and over again but never convincing each other of anything. And it just went on for pages and pages and pages. -
I feel like if you gave me the task of putting together a list like this at any given time i could do it but it will only be based upon what I have watched up until that point. It just may take a few days of organizing notes. So I'm up for this whenever. 2016 sounds good because by then I'm sure I will have watched even more wrestling and (I would hope) that means I have a more balanced ballot. That said, it is a long time from now and I worry about the interest of potential voters fizzling out. Like Loss said, as long as there is a centralized person running it and keeping people interested then I then I think it will be a good thing.
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Wow. I loved the match these two had in U-STYLE and while I haven't seen much RINGS I am a big fan of Tamura from his matches against Volk Han as well as his UWFi and U-STYLE runs. Despite those things I haven't seen any of the native vs native RINGS matches, which is something I've been meaning to change for a while. I noticed this thread getting a lot of traffic and from skimming what's been posted the reaction to this one seemed to be positive (didn't want to read too much) so I checked this out. And wow. This is fucking incredible. The matwork? Ten minutes of uninterrupted grappling at the beginning? That's a feat. I love that Tamura seemed to have spent the most time in dominant positions but it didn't matter because Kohsaka put him in danger far more often. These guys have such incredible control of their bodies and I couldn't believe just how quick and accurate their reactions could be. Tamura is so fast and so explosive. When he manages to score a down on Kohsaka it felt huge and I liked that it was the moment that allowed Tamura to catch up and get back into the fight. I was hardly breathing during the last chunk of the match and I was about to lose it during the armbar attempt that came seconds before the bell rang. This is one of the rare time limit draws that still manages to retain it's drama as the clock counts down. I could easily see this as a 1990s MOTDC which is awesome because I thought I'd seen all of the major 90s MOTDCs.
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