Graham Crackers

I dunno, Kawada was a really a good tag worker in 1988/89. He was still a step behind Fuyuki but was still a big part of why those matches were great.

Some of his pro style offense, and especially the chokeslam, looks jarringly cooperative in UWFi matches. That's never a problem in WCW, NJPW, or AJPW but it looks really weird in that setting.

All of the WOS stuff I've seen so far is stuff that I saw was on your recommended list at WKO. I've decided to dive into watching that stuff again and I'm thankful I did. That Sid Cooper vs Dave Barrie match was spectacular and now I really need to see more Sid Cooper.

Much like the other 1961 matches the CFA have uploaded so far this is more interesting than good. I was excited to see Sweet Daddy Siki in action (according to my father he was my great grandmother's favorite wrestler) as well as a young Lou Albano. So far I've found that with footage this old it's either gritty or corny/cartoony. I liked the grittiness of Gagne vs Bastien and Thesz but unfortunately this is of the corny variety. The heels do a lot of over exaggerated chokes and lame stooging. It's a pretty one sided affair at that.

Calhoun threw some awful punches but I enjoyed everything else. I always like when a guy goes to the ropes to break a headlock only for the guy applying it to hold on as they run the ropes. This was a fun iteration of that with Rogers going extra limp as Calhoun ran with the headlock.

Fun squash match showing off some neat vintage high flying. It's not going to blow your mind but it's a fun way to spend 5 minutes.

Not good. There was a lot of sloppy shit that looked overly cooperative and some comically loose strikes from Terry.

One of the interesting things for me about the establishment of that "new norm" was the way they combined influences from all over the world and history. Yes, there are occasions when watching indy wrestling where you can tell what tapes a wrestler has been watching but there are also plenty of examples of guys making something new out of old ingredients. I think the best wrestlers of the indy boom did a good job of modernizing traditional wrestling tropes. Something like Aries vs McGuinness had All Japan style nearfalls and apron spots, traditional American face/heel dynamics, matwork that actually felt important, and MMA style positioning (guard positions, mounts, ground & pound).

There is one spot that is the definitive Fuerza moment to me. I believe it's in one of those Octagon matches but it's been a long time. He bodyslams his opponent close to one corner but goes to the furthest possible corner to climb the turnbuckles. He does it with such confidence that I started thinking "Man, Fuerza's more athletic than I thought." and then he just faceplants. I think that Super Astro, Atlantis y El Faraón vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Blue Panther y Emilio Charles (8/18/89) may be his definitive performance. I have watched this thing over and over again since I finished up the lucha set. This is what I wrote:

Obviously he's a brawler but I always thought he looked very comfortable on the mat in the Inoki matches. I know they aren't everyone's cup of tea but I also really dig the Misawa matches which are more sporting, if that makes sense. There's still striking but they feel more competitive and less hate-filled. The 1984 Baba series is similar. Hansen is also really good working underneath in the rare matches where he was called upon to do so. He's an awesome underdog against Andre and I remember an All Japan tag where he gets mugged at the beginning and ends up working as a babyface.

Look at the conduct in regards to that Devitt thread in that New Japan thread - Devitt who has been the talk of the town all year since that thread happened by the week. I don't want to get into spoilers but just look at all the interest in him the past few days. As concrete1992 said the modern indies thread died off quickly here. JerryVonKramer need a seemingly endless of reasons to watch one match. There's a problem here with perception and discussion of modern indie Wrestling whether you want to acknowledge it or not. You don't have to remember I posted the link and I was being attacked. My very simple statement lead to Matt D hounding me on other forums for months. I'm on my phone and I'm having trouble finding the Devitt link so I'm not going to comment on whether you were or were not attacked but did you ever end up posting your personal thoughts on Devitt? No, there don't appear to be many people here watching modern indy wrestling but we don't all have some issue with it. I used to love US indy wrestling but I just don't have the time to follow new stuff and I only watch the big recent shows that intrigue me. That doesn't mean that everyone here subscribes to some anti-US indy dogma. JerryVonKramer is an extreme example. He's also someone who dislikes shoot style and lucha matwork but those are things that I value and I know I'm not alone in that. I was really trying to see where you were coming from but I see that it's a waste of time. You complained about your opinions and the opinions of others but apparently felt that the only way to exert the importance of your opinion was to downplay the opinions of others. I am a former WKO voter (2009 and 2010) but you have deemed that list farcical. It's different from the PWO project in that those WKO lists are a curated set of opinions but they are other people's real opinions. I'll note that back when I voted in 2009 and 2010 I watched a ton of US indy wrestling from ROH, CZW, JAPW, IWA-MS, XCW-Midwest, Chikara, and there was a lot more discussion of that stuff going on there than there is here.

Not close minded I have watched a lot of Jimmy's work over the years and most likely more of his recent work than anyone here. It isn't perceived though it is an actuality. The Devitt experience along with other stuff leads me to believe that it would be a pretty pointless exercise due to the biases and close mindedness of some prominent posters. Not interested in another hounding due to be posting a well heeled or largely held opinion outside of the general PWO bubble either. If I'm remembering correctly: you said that Devitt was well respected but when you were asked to post your opinion of Devitt or write something about matches of his you liked you acted as if you were being attacked.

Just interested more than anything, but why do you put Choshu ahead of Jumbo or even Tenryu for the 80s? I'm not sure where Choshu will finish for me, need to think about him more, but you can probably add about a +5 on his final placement just because he looked so cool. Choshu had a fuller decade than either of them. Jumbo and Tenryu didn't really find themselves as mature workers until the late 80s. Part of that is the All Japan style being better defined in 1988 than it was at any time before that and part of that is when both of them found their tools. Meanwhile Choshu was an impressive worker from 1983 all the way to the end of the decade.

The attitude in this thread in response to Bill's request is not the kind of thing that'll make this board seem very accepting to new posters. I'm not saying that any phrases need to be banned but when a word that already has connotations is complained about and the response is to go directly to scoffing is only going to serve to alienate potential posters. I'm not offended by the word bitch but this attitude is a bit much for me. It's it really such a burden to make an attempt at empathy?

No doubt. The man is an all time great speaker.

He looked good in those Rock n Roll/Hacksaw vs Midnight Express 6 man tags but is there really enough good stuff out there to justify him being discussed here?

When I saw Tamura squash him in U-STYLE it actually made me a little sad. I mean, I knew it wouldn't be even but Otsuka is a longtime personal favorite of mine. I wanted to believe, damn it! He's one of my favorite mat wrestlers of all time and it's a shame that he's never been better recognized for it outside of his niche. Very eclectic wrestler who mixes amateur wrestling, shoot style, lucha, and AJPW style headdrops. Top half lock for me.

His first NOAH run had some really good matches even if he wasn't amazing every time out. The Honda matches and the 2003 arena brawl are among my favorite NOAH matches ever. Here's the number two Battlartist. His specialty is the sickening violence that Battlarts and later FUTEN's reputation has been synonymous with over the years. Only reason he's not at Ishikawa's level is 1.) NOAH and 2.) Gaps in available footage.

If you ask me to list my top native Japanese workers it'd look like this: 1.) Fujiwara 2.) Misawa 3.) Ishikawa, Tenryu, and Hashimoto duking it out (which sounds like a cool match) I like his rise to prominence in PWFG. He is a tenacious young babyface in the Vale and Kozlowski matches. He was a fearsome top babyface when working Battlarts main events and excels when he has to tough it out. When he appears in other promotions he is frequently a believably scummy heel. If you can handle the brutally stiff striking and appreciate matwork you will love his offense which mixes New Japan style heavyweight grappling and shoot style. He always makes his opponents look great, especially evident given the number of rookies, crowbars, and stiffs he's brought into Battlarts over the years.

Incredible journeyman wrestler. I love him as a Liger's rival in New Japan. I love him even doing shoot style in PWFG. He wasn't as featured in UWFi but whenever he got a chance he looked fantastic and was arguably the number 1 or 2 worker in that company (it's between him and Anjoh). I thought he was really good as a methodical bruising heavyweight in NOAH and in the rare chances he had to work a main event or featured position in a tag he looked like he was at the same level as the top NOAH guys. One of my all time favorite Japanese workers.

I think his 90s underdog roll brings him to the discussion but doesn't necessarily land him a spot. If that was all he'd be up against the other guys with good peaks and not much else. Thankfully Kikuchi has his 2000s run as surly junior vet which is just awesome. I don't think anyone mistakes him for a high ranking wrestler but he's someone that could and likely will easily make his way into the bottom 20 of my top 100.

I also fully expect to be the high voter for him.

My stream crapped out on me last night (but I got to see Cavernario vs Rey Cometa which was great) do hopefully I'll get to watch this later. Thanks for posting the link.

I think there is an argument to be made that Super Porky us among the two or three best fat wrestlers of all time. He looks like a decent wrestler in the snippets of his pre weight gain careern we have but when he reinvented himself after the weight gain he became one of the most charismatic wrestlers I've ever see. The 1989 bouts against Los Bucaneros is an awesome sample of what he and his brothers could do. They manage to straddle a fantastic balance between comical and serious. Their Super Libre in particular is one if my favorite trios matches in how it starts very funny but end in harrowing violent fashion. Los Brazos have a ton of great trios matches from the early 90s as well. I'll try to post a list of those another time when I'm not on my phone.

Those late 80s/early 90s workrate tags from AJPW are about as fun as pro wrestling gets. I can always put on the Can-Ams vs Footloose or Kobashi & Joe Malenko or Kobashi & Kikuchi and I'll have a good time. Those matches are athletically impressive in terms of their fast pace and the complexity of the action but that doesn't always lead to great matches. Those matches have a great rhythm and a great sense of escalation. Kroffat is one of the keys to those matches and deserves a lot of credit for why they work. Still, I think those matches are a step below the best stuff going on at that time. I can understand why someone may love those matches and really wants Kroffat on their list but I don't think I can justify it. I see Kroffat as a guy who was good but his peak wasn't at the elite level and didn't really have a great deal of longevity so it's hard for me to see him as a top 100 pick.