Graham Crackers

That's true. I love Vader and he'll be one of the highest ranking Americans on my list but it's not shoot style making that case for me.

On the importance of shoot style wrestling: Boxing is a popular sport and many people who watch wrestling have seen a boxing match. That means that people know how a real punch looks. When promoters still cared about the suspension of disbelief it was important for workers to be able to throw realistic punches. Yes, we do have footage of vintage wrestlers like Haystacks Calhoun throwing shitty punches but there is a tradition of wrestlers throwing great punches. Most of the classic NWA champs I've seen have good punches. In territories that put more of a focus on brawling we have lots of wrestlers whose engage in even more technical boxing. Look at the variety of punches thrown by Lawler and Dundee. Look at the way Ronnie Garvin or Greg Valentine used boxing head movements. As American wrestling became more theatrical less emphasis was placed on striking but that doesn't mean that suspension of disbelief became less important. WWE may not have a lot of guys who throw good punches but there are dangerous high flying moves, weapons, and moves that while occasionally cooperative looking require bumps of varying degrees of danger. Basically what I'm trying to establish is that there is a baseline for plausible wrestling offense. That doesn't mean it has to be realistic but fans need to see someone take a bump or get hit (whether it is a safe/worked strike or a stiff one) to accept that someone is getting hurt. In Japan that baseline for plausible wrestling offense developed differently. It's important to bear in mind that the first notable match between two native Japanese wrestlers turned into a shoot that ended with a legitimate knockout. I think it's also important to keep in mind that one of the competitors in that match is one of the most important judoka in history. When Antonio Inoki rose to fame there was already a precedent for realistic offense in Japanese wrestling and he was smart enough to seize it and make it part of his mystique. That's why he brought in martial artists and boxers to fight him. That's why he chose to have Karl Gotch train in his dojo. When the UWF wrestlers left New Japan in the 80s they saw that blurred line between shoot and work as something else they could take advantage of the same way that Inoki had in the previous decade. UWF didn't invent shoot style overnight but they slowly developed it. Fujiwara pushed the development of matwork into more realistic territory than had previously been seen although he was still concerned with using that matwork to tell traditional pro wrestling stories. Sayama pushed for more realistic striking based upon his martial arts background. Maeda was the charismatic heavyweight who represented both new ideas. The influence of shoot style on the development of MMA is well know but I'm going to focus on how it shaped good old worked pro wrestling. If I'm remembering correctly, the original UWF never claimed that "New Japan was fake" but with their more realistic style the implication was there. Shoot style matwork had already been an ingredient in New Japan's strong style but when the UWF invasion angle began in 1986 it was given even more emphasis. As shoot style promotions developed so did pro wrestling offense in New Japan and even All Japan. When you see armbars, chokes, judo throws, deadlift suplexes, KO spots, or kickboxing style kneelifts in a pro wrestling match then you are seeing the influence of shoot style. All matwork in post 1984 Japanese wrestling has shoot elements. Shoot style also put more emphasis on clean victories. UWF matches almost always ended with a victor or possibly a time limit draw. New Japan slowly introduced that principle during the NJPW vs UWF feud and in a couple years Baba was forced to follow suit. Eventually the Japanese influence on independent wrestling combined with former All Japan employee Johnny Ace's management position in WWE made that same concept the norm in American pro wrestling. That same influence rubbed off in Mexico, probably due to a combination of talent trades and wrestlers watching Japanese tapes (there are still low blows though). Back to the development of American wrestling offense, I think you can argue that shoot style has had an influence on some developments in American wrestling rings, though it's not as strong as the influence it has had on American booking. This also brings us back to the boxing example I gave earlier as it ties in MMA and it's influence on pro wrestling. I know that not everyone is in the same boat as me but I can't unsee MMA grappling when I see traditional pro style matwork. It may not bother every wrestling fan but when I see someone trapped in a hold for a long time without tapping out it strains my willing suspension of disbelief because I know that you'd never see someone in an armbar or a choke for that long because they'd get injured. I suspect that more people see that than we realize. On top of that, MMA shows us that you don't need a limb worn down to get a submission. An armbar can break your arm no matter what has happened to your arm before that point. So how does that change American pro wrestling? The obvious answer is the changing number of shoot holds that wrestlers use, particularly on the indies but that's not all. I'm not suggesting that "injured limb" stories are leaving pro wrestling or even that they should but I think they are becoming less common than they were. Think of a match like Cena vs CM Punk. Those are long main events by WWE standards and more matwork centric than most WWE matches as well but they don't really have the "limb attack" strategies associated with classic American matches either. Instead the grappling consists of headlocks to maintain control and attempts at locking in submission finishers. Rather than setting up submissions the drama comes from wrestlers trying to apply a hold that can win a match at any time while the other wrestler blocks it or escapes it. Modern WWE fans haven't been trained to accept every hold as a potential match ender but the psychology behind most WWE submission finishers is similar to how shoot holds might be treated in New Japan, even if those WWE finishers aren't particularly realistic.

Don't worry man.

I think that what you're saying here is fair based upon past incidents in the DVDVR/PWO corner of wrestling fandom. Hell, 5 or 6 years ago I definitely would have been one of those people who make claims about fans connections to Angle, Michaels, etc. I was younger and dumber and I just couldn't grasp why people liked those guys. It wasn't just me. I remember discussion about Michaels used to get sooooo ugly. I remember how bad Purotopia used to get when it came time to discuss a KENTA match. I don't know if PWO was as bad as it was at DVDVR but I think with the amount of overlap we have here it's not crazy to bring up that era. Of course in that era discussions of Dandy, Lawler, and Cena were pretty ugly too. I feel as if over the last few years the notion of different schools of thought on wrestling has become a bit more acceptable. Even in my infrequent visits to chan boards like /wooo/ I see a wider distribution of interests being discussed than there used to be. Part of why I've become more open to debate is seeing posters with opinions I really value like you being very comfortable articulating what you enjoy about stuff I don't like. I still don't like Michaels but I see what you enjoy about watching him (I also softened on Michaels after the AWA set and a quick glimpse at the Rockers' WWF run but that's not completely relevant). Basically, I think we're better than we were. We've all grown up. The younger/newer posters have keener eyes and more open minds and that's encouraging for someone like me and I hope it is to the posters who have been doing this even longer than me..

Yo-Yo's Roomie is actually from the future and he came back in time to warn us. Can we prevent this from happening in our timeline?

UWF vs New Japan in 1986 In the ring it featured state of the art wrestling for it's time, combining the new UWF style of matwork with the traditional New Japan style matwork and some pro style offense. The shooty matwork and seemingly uncooperative clinches made almost every match seem like a fight. The major angles were built upon drama that could have occurred in a real sporting event like the brawl between the New Japan and UWF locker rooms that occurred after the controversial low blow finish to the first Inoki vs Fujiwara match. The interpromotional nature of the feud allowed for a broad cast of characters interacting in tons of unique ways. My favorite moments include the aforementioned low blow finish, Umanosuke Ueda turning face and falling on his own sword in the 3/26/86 elimination match, Maeda destroying Fujinami's face in their singles match, and Fujiwara having blood wiped off of his face before he faces Fujinami in the big NJPW vs UWF gauntlet match.

I need to see more but what I have seen is awesome. His match against Fujinami is one of my all time favorite New Japan matches. I would love some 70s IWE recommendations.

So, I'm thinking this is their best match against each other. it still has the spectacular offense of their 2000 and 2001 encounters but it's so much more structurally sound. There are a few momentum shifts throughout this match but they are spaced nicely. It keeps these two even but allows plenty of time for Satomura to gain sympathy. And the Scorpio Rising is the coolest "Shining" move in wrestling.

This is for the people who enjoyed the 2004 Dark Agents tags. It's basically the singles equivalent with Inoue putting in his best effort against the champ. I prefer the tag againt Misawa/Ogawa and it's broader cast of characters but Inoue without Saito is still a charmingly delightful loser.

Taue is good in this one but I think my hatred for Marufuji is too blinding for me to enjoy this match. Taue's bombs are usually pretty cool but here they just feel like excuses for Marufuji to jump high.

Wild match. The strike exchanges in this match are some of the most brutal that Misawa has ever been involved in and they just do not let up. I'm not sure how to rank this because it wasn't particularly smart but the spectacle of these tow just killing each other with strikes had me captivated.

This has some fun moments but it feels incomplete. The main reason to watch this is Tenryu punching Kobashi and bloodying his mouth with a chair. Kobashi and Sasaki beating Nakajima up isn't nearly as cool as it would have been if Tenryu did it.

I know this was a popular match online back in 2005 and I was definitely really into it when I first started watching NOAH. I also liked Kobashi vs Sasaki back then. It's been a while and after seeing how poorly the Kobashi/Sasaki dome match aged I was a little worried about this one. So I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked this. It's still not MOTY but it may end up making the lower half of my ballot. It's funny to think that Go Shiozaki's two best performances happened this early in his career but here it is. It's a shame how disappointing he turned out. He and Nakajima actually work together pretty well. The dynamic of Go as rookie heavyweight allows Nakajima to work a bit more evenly with him but the weight difference forces Nakajima into a more focused match than he'd had up until that point. Kobashi and Sasaki are there for chops and big bombs and the match wouldn't be as special without them. This is like a fun summer blockbuster. Big explosions, cool looking stuff, fun personalities, and not a lot to think about.

One of the six or seven best GHC title matches, one of the top 20 NOAH matches ever and probably a top 40 match for this ballot at worst. This takes the promise displayed in the Tenryu/Akiyama vs Kobashi/Taue tag and builds an incredible match on top of it. At his best in NOAH Akiyama came across as a smart worker but this is one of the few times he has come across as a real bruiser. Those knee strikes have never looked better from him.

I am not a fan of this one. I wrote this about it on WKO:

Battlarts style is influenced by shoot style and these guys have wrestled some straight up shoot style matches but they aren't strictly shoot style wrestlers. A lot of Battlarts resembles vintage New Japan grappling and there are lots of other pro-style influences, particularly the moves. This match is pretty awesome. Ishikawa vs Otsuka is a competitive feud as opposed to the more spiteful Ishikawa vs Ikeda feud. As a result we get more beautiful matwork and cool throws. Still, this has brutal mounted punches and headbutts and all of that gross Battlarts stuff.

I liked this match but I feel like I like it less than everyone else who has ever posted about this on the internet. SUWA's cheating and mugging is entertaining as hell and it's great to see him get his comeuppance but he does a lot of blatant cheating in front of the ref when he is the challenger in a title match. I guess he doesn't care about titles, just trolling. This is a good match that may end up on the back end of my ballot but I'm just not as high on this as many other people are.

I liked the match with Go instead of Taue better because I liked the dynamic of Kobashi and a rookie against Tenryu and Akiyama but this isn't that far off. Possibly the best Taue tag performance of the 2000s with him just fired up about everything. This is also a better Akiyama showcase than the last tag. Probably a top 50 match.

I assume this is supposed to be Akiyama & Kanemaru vs Kobashi & Hashi. Shibata did not team with Akiyama. This is a good match and part of a really fun storyline. Hashi finally became a great wrestler in FUTEN but I liked his 2003-2005 run as Hashi's shaggy dog sidekick which culminates here when their partnership ends due to a lost tag title match. It's still a shaggy dog story but I like the idea of Hashi as this tragic loser.

I think his is probably the best match on this show but then again, I really liked the Hashi storyline in 2005. Hashi goes into this match with his head taped/bandaged so Suzuki and Marufuji try to cause him head trauma, jeopardizing his career, his partnership with Akiyama, and their tag title shot. Sets up the 8/19 tag so if you plan on watching that you should watch this first.

I think my opinion lands right between dawho5 and Superstar Sleaze on this one. I liked this and I think it's better than a bunch of those lifeless late 90s matches between them. Not a great match but a lot of fun and a satisfying main event to a big show.

The long chop sequence is fun stupid. The rest is bad stupid. I guess I see the appeal of this match but after watching a fucking shitload of Japanese wrestling over the course of the last several years the fighting spirit shit here just feels unimaginative.

Probably my favorite KENTAfuji vs other juniors match though I don't think I'm as high on this as dawho5. I hate Marufuji but I quite like Hidaka and this is the best I remember Fujita ever looking.

In some ways Hashi in these Akiyama matches is the inversion of Hashimoto in those Tanaka matches. Hashimoto was still compelling to me when he's just mauling somebody and Hashi was complelling when he's getting mauled. I liked this and I'm generally a fan of the Hashi/Akiyama story even if it never gave us a great match.

I love this match and I especially love how it plays to everyone's strengths. I'm specifically speaking about Tenryu, Kobash, and Go. Tenryu is a fantastic heel. Like I pointed out before, the way he avoids going toe to toe with Kobashi is perfect heeling for NOAH. Kobashi's getting more and more worn down at this point so he's basically there to kick ass and tag out. Most of that ass kicking is in the form of the chops but Tenryu goes above and beyond in making you understand how serious Kobashi's chops are. Not only does he do his best to avoid them, when he finally gets hit with them he blades his old lumpy chest! The other bit of fantastic heeling comes in his interactions with young Go Shiozaki. Tenryu cutting off rookies and punching them in the face is well documented and Shiozaki is the perfect candidate. Only negative I see is that the finish is obvious long before it comes.