Loss

Yes.

I don't recall Rock and Boss Man doing a program in 2000. If they did, it wasn't on PPV, so it's hard to call any house show numbers that were stronger than usual anything but a coincidence. In 1998, he was clearly put in a position to draw, with his match against Austin being one of the selling points of the Survivor Series pay-per-view. If Boss Man did the same numbers against Rock as others, I guess that just means that it didn't matter what they did at that point on house shows, because the company was hot and people were just coming to see The Show. I liked Boss Man for a long time, but I seem to remember him getting a negative type of heat when he came back to the WWF where people just thought he was embarrassing and wanted him to go away, fair and accurate or unfair and inaccurate.

Syxx gave an out of shape Flair some really tremendous openings in that Slamboree six-man. That match was entertaining for what it was supposed to be and Waltman pretty much carried all five guys. The period from the beginning of the NWO through the return after the lawsuit was really when I think Flair looked worse than he ever had. Terrible interviews that had nothing to do with anything, and he really seemed irrelevant. Returning after the lawsuit led to some great late-1998 promos and 1999 had him finding himself again, as much as he was going to with age and politics both working against him in a big way.

Well, Razor Ramon was probably more over than Tatanka at that point, so I understand why they went in that direction. I don't know that he needed to be pushed harder necessarily, but the heel turn in retrospect wasn't a good idea. He was probably a guy with a limited shelf life, he was just better in the ring than he got credit for at the time.

Waltman seemed to be having the time of his life in that Flair feud.

Awesome, I will check them out.

Watching some stuff as part of the '93 yearbook prep, and Tatanka is much better than I remembered him being. I don't want to start a crusade to make him the lost superworker of the early 90s or anything, but he has always had a rep as being a guy who couldn't really go, but in all the Michaels matches (not just the WM match), he has more than held up his end. It's possible those guys just have good chemistry, but there's also a Flair/Tatanka match on Coliseum video that's good (although it's from '92). And speaking of Michaels, I think the ladder match was a clear turning point for his wrestling style. His bumping and selling in '93 was much more about getting the match over and making his opponent look good than it would later become. I'm a fan of 1994-1997 Shawn, and enjoyed most of his big matches. But in spite of that, they were definitely The Shawn Show, in the sense that his bumping was to make you impressed at the punishment he was taking more than to get someone else over as a tough guy.

Pull out the quotes if you must, I can tell you want to. And no, I don't recall anyone saying that Henry "carried" Angle. The point was never that Mark Henry was an amazing superworker. The point was that he wasn't as bad as he was made out to be and that at times, he was even good. But I can't recall a time in the past decade when a super heavyweight got credit for actually being good unless he was Brock Lesnar, or to a lesser degree, Batista. Undertaker has gotten it at times, but he was also around before the whole "No one over 240 lbs can possibly be any good" mindset really got carried away.

"Mark Henry was in a few good matches" became reimagined as "Mark Henry is the greatest wrestler on earth". And the ones doing the reimagining were not those who praised Henry, but rather Bryan Alvarez and his followers. He had some matches where he did a good job with game opponents, and he got acknowledged for it. How that got spun as "DVDVR guys are saying Mark Henry is better than Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels" is something I never got. Yes, there was talk around the same time about Angle and Michaels being overrated, but the arguments didn't really crossover each other. DVDVR posters were never obsessed with Mark Henry. Rather, others were obsessed with DVDVR posters liking Mark Henry in a few matches.

Since we are attempting to collect footage for both at the same time and will release them in the order they are complete, I thought I'd also start a thread for 1990 recommendations.

This is a huge help, thanks Dylan.

This is the place to make them. While we appreciate anyone making recommendations, the most important thing you can do is include the date. We're set with the following: * Pay-per-view matches * Anything rated well in the WON Here is where we really need recommendations: * Global - We have all the TV, but no idea what's worth including. * European footage * WWF and WCW handheld recommendations (Aside from the Flair/Bret Ironman) * AJW and JWP TV * EMLL * U.S. indies (Specifically the NWA affiliates and spot shows that ran in the Northeast) * WCW TV - I know Smarkschoice did the huge WCW project, but since the board is gone, so is the discussion. * W*ING and FMW * Michinoku Pro * WAR * ECW TV * Any All Japan or New Japan that should go on in spite of WON snowflakes The U.S. seems to be the only place that wasn't having a good year, so I know there is a lot to wade through. Also, if you know something aired incomplete in one form, and complete in another, information like that is always very helpful. Thanks!

It meant that in both cases, the latter program drew huge money, but the improved house show business actually started with the first program.

Kill me.

Hogan/Boss Man is to Hogan/Savage in '89 what Flair/Savage was to Hollywood Hogan in '96.

Whenever I can find a couple of free hours to type it up.

Dave should stop lobbying for Brock to be on the Mania card. It's annoying, and a little inappropriate.

How much of the boom ending can reasonably be placed on HHH overkill and people tuning out because he was overexposed?

Not sure about the whole show, but the Benoit/Malenko vs Jericho/Eddy match is definitely available.