Loss

The only one that was taped, yes. I actually thought the PPV version of that match was pretty good (it's clipped to hell on the comm release), although a step below their other matches.

As you can imagine, I think this is a terrific idea and definitely think you should do it. I'll let this sit for a day so everyone sees it, but then I'm going to move this and your other threads into Projects and Lists. Trav, if you need the password, send me a PM.

Source?

No one ever said HHH wasn't smart, and no one has really expressed anger at HHH in this thread either. It's more of a case of stating the obvious, and just pointing out that wrestlers don't really like him.

I think safe wrestling would look like this: http://www.dailymotion.com/country:dk/tag/...at-chitow_sport

Time to make some revisions. Thoughts will be added at some point tonight: 1. Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85) 2. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Butch Reed & Jim Neidhart (Cage Match) (12/25/83) 3. Ted DiBiase vs. Terry Taylor (7/3/85) 4. Hacksaw Duggan vs. Buzz Sawyer (11/11/85) 5. Ric Flair vs. Butch Reed (8/10/85) 6. Dirty White Boys vs. Terry Daniels & Bill Dundee (5/11/85) 7. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/85) 8. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (9/22/85) 9. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (6/8/84) 10. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (4/28/85) 11. Ted DiBiase vs. Brad Armstrong (2/10/85) 12. Ted Dibiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Tuxedo, Cage match ) (3/22/85) 13. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (6/30/85) 14. Ted Dibiase vs. Jim Duggan (No DQ) (3/8/85) 15. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Brickhouse Brown, Bill Dundee & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (11/16/84) 16. Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (5/11/85) 17. Dick Murdoch vs. The Nightmare (7/14/85) 18. Ted DiBiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (Street Fight) (7/29/83) 19. Mr. Olympia vs. Chavo Guerrerro (6/24/83) 20. Ted Dibiase vs. Jake Roberts (7/22/85) 21. Butch Reed vs. Skip Young (9/23/84) 22. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (7/14/85) 23. Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (Taped Fist) (10/11/85) 24. Rock N Roll Express vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (6/28/85) 25. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (10/14/85) 26. Ted Dibiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85) 27. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (5/4/85) 28. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted Dibiase & Matt Borne (Loser Leaves Town) (10/27/82) 29. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (7/2/84) 30. Jake Roberts vs. Lord Humongous (Cage Match) (11/29/85) 31. Butch Reed vs. Ric Flair (11/8/85) 32. Brad Armstrong vs. Ted DiBiase (1/16/85) 33. Jake Roberts vs. Ric Flair (11/24/85) 34. The Fantastics vs. Dr. Death & Jake Roberts (4/14/85) 35. Butch Reed vs. Ric Flair (10/11/85) 36. The Fantastics vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (10/12/84) 37. Mr. Olympia vs. Bob Roop (7/15/82) 38. One Man Gang vs. Buck Robley (Lumberjack Match) (9/15/82) 39. Ted Dibiase vs. Butch Reed (7/25/85) 40. Dusty Rhodes & Jim Duggan vs. Butch Reed & Hercules Hernandez (8/19/84) 41. The Fantastics & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Jim Cornette (7/20/84) 42. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (Tulsa 5/27/84) 43. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (OKC 8/9/84) 44. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (Scaffold Match) (12/2/84) 45. Rock N Roll Express vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (2/13/85) 46. Bob Roop vs. Mike George (12/16/81) 47. Midnight Express vs. Bill Dundee & Porkchop Cash (4/6/84) 48. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (4/28/85) 49. Magnum TA v. Ted DiBiase (7/6/84) 50. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Midnight Express (2/10/84) 51. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Hacksaw Duggan (8/18/82) 52. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Dusty Rhodes (5/20/83) 53. Rock N Roll Express vs. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death (6/19/85) 54. Midnight Express vs. Bill Watts & Stagger Lee (4/22/84) 55. Buddy Landel & Butch Reed vs. Rock N Roll Express (3/28/84) 56. Midnight Express vs. Rock N Roll Express (No DQ: Tag Titles vs. $50,000) (5/23/84) 57. Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/12/85) 58. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (No DQ) (9/28/84) 59. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (OKC 5/27/84) 60. The Fantastics vs. Bill Dundee & Dutch Mantell (9/22/85) 61. Butch Reed vs. Dick Slater (11/22/85) 62. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (1/21/85) 63. The Fantastics vs. Buzz Sawyer & Dick Slater (10/27/85) 64. Jim Duggan, Dick Murdoch & Bill Watts vs. Kamala, Kareem Muhammad & Skandor Akbar (7/28/85) 65. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Rock N Roll Express & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (1/18/85) 66. Ernie Ladd & Butch Reed vs. Magnum TA & Master G (Street Fight) (11/4/84) 67. Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (10/13/85) 68. Brickhouse Brown & Master Gee vs. Butch Reed & Ernie Ladd (10/21/84) 69. Mr. Wrestling II & Junkyard Dog vs. Matt Borne & Ted DiBiase (2/16/83) 70. Hacksaw Duggan & Dick Murdoch vs. Kamala & Kareem Muhammad (7/14/85) 71. Mr. Olympia vs. Paul Orndorff (2/3/82) 72. Bob Roop vs. Ted DiBiase (4/2/82) 73. Dick Murdoch vs. Dr. Death (9/20/85) 74. Butch Reed v. Iron Sheik (4/8/83) 75. Al Perez & Wendell Cooley vs. Dr. Death & Bob Sweetan (8/30/85) 76. Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (4/15/85) 77. Adrian Street vs. Terry Taylor (Loser Leaves Town) (12/7/84) 78. Junkyard Dog vs. Nick Bockwinkel (6/11/82) 79. The Fantastics vs. Dutch Mantell & Bill Dundee (10/4/85) 80. Rock N Roll Express & Butch Reed vs. Dr. Death, Kamala & One Man Gang (2/25/85) 81. Killer Khan v. Chris Adams (9/9/84) 82. Kevin Von Erich vs. Chris Adams (1/18/85) 83. Adrian Street vs. Chris Adams (10/10/84) 84. Rock N Roll Express vs. Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts (6/24/85) 85. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Gordy (Texas Tornado Match) (1/21/85) 86. Stagger Lee & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Matt Borne (12/18/82)

Where's the inconsistency? I still don't understand.

He thinks we can't talk about wrestling needing to clean up and being a sleazy business on one hand and enjoy it and find it entertaining on the other.

It's a different Flair/Taylor match. The one on the DVD is 4/28/85, which I do have ranked. But the one I have at #1 is 6/1/85. I would not have ranked it so highly before, but rewatching really made an impression.

There's no contradiction. You can acknowledge that wrestling can be great entertainment and also acknowledge that going on a concussed and/or drug-induced rampage and killing your children is wrong.

I have to watch the Flair-Taylor matches altogether but I remember watching this and not being as excited as you are. I was far more excited watching the Reed-Murdoch matches. I had seen it before and it didn't really register with me, but this time, it definitely did. I still think at least one of the Murdoch/Reed matches will end up ahead of this, though, but I've been proving myself wrong constantly since watching this.

So now I'm all the way through Disc 4, except for the Houston Rock & Rolls vs Doc & DiBiase match, which I'll have to watch on another TV tomorrow since it has no sound for me. Here are some updated rankings and added thoughts. 1. Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85) -- Mentioned my thoughts on this one elsewhere in the thread. 2. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Butch Reed & Jim Neidhart (Cage Match) (12/25/83) 3. Dirty White Boys vs. Terry Daniels & Bill Dundee (5/11/85) -- Totally didn't expect this one to be so great. I think this may be the sleeper match of the set, meaning it didn't look too good on paper for me, but turned out to be awesome. Daniels is the hot tag guy and is rarely even in, but Dundee and Len Denton have awesome chemistry, and I'd love to see a singles match with them. I don't want to say too much about this before anyone watches it, but this will completely blow your mind in terms of a match being better than you'd ever expect it to be. Even if it falls, it will still finish very high. 4. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/85) 5. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (6/8/84) 6. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (4/28/85) 7. Ted DiBiase vs. Brad Armstrong (2/10/85) 8. Ted Dibiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Tuxedo, Cage match ) (3/22/85) 9. Ted Dibiase vs. Jim Duggan (No DQ) (3/8/85) 10. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Brickhouse Brown, Bill Dundee & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (11/16/84) 11. Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (5/11/85) -- This was the RRX/DWB match I needed to see. Tim Cooke said it was amazing and he's right. Screw what I said before about the teams not matching up well. 12. Ted DiBiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (Street Fight) (7/29/83) 13. Mr. Olympia vs. Chavo Guerrerro (6/24/83) 14. Butch Reed vs. Skip Young (9/23/84) 15. Rock N Roll Express vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (6/28/85) -- This is all kinds of great for all kinds of reasons. BUT ... wait until you see this match and see what happens when Jake gets caught in the ropes. That's all I'll say about that. You can see Jake calling spots for everyone at times, and Nord is obviously green, but is working really hard and fits in well here. I love that Jake waits until the heat is where he wants it before he actually starts beating up Ricky Morton. Until then, they're just going to have fun and do comedy sequences. Awesome stuff. 16. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (5/4/85) 17. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted Dibiase & Matt Borne (Loser Leaves Town) (10/27/82) 18. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (7/2/84) 19. Brad Armstrong vs. Ted DiBiase (1/16/85) 20. The Fantastics vs. Dr. Death & Jake Roberts (4/14/85) 21. The Fantastics vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (10/12/84) 22. Mr. Olympia vs. Bob Roop (7/15/82) 23. One Man Gang vs. Buck Robley (Lumberjack Match) (9/15/82) 24. Dusty Rhodes & Jim Duggan vs. Butch Reed & Hercules Hernandez (8/19/84) 25. The Fantastics & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Jim Cornette (7/20/84) 26. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (Tulsa 5/27/84) 27. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (OKC 8/9/84) 28. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (Scaffold Match) (12/2/84) 29. Rock N Roll Express vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (2/13/85) 30. Bob Roop vs. Mike George (12/16/81) 31. Midnight Express vs. Bill Dundee & Porkchop Cash (4/6/84) 32. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (4/28/85) 33. Magnum TA v. Ted DiBiase (7/6/84) 34. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Midnight Express (2/10/84) 35. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Hacksaw Duggan (8/18/82) 36. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Dusty Rhodes (5/20/83) 37. Rock N Roll Express vs. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death (6/19/85) 38. Midnight Express vs. Bill Watts & Stagger Lee (4/22/84) 39. Buddy Landel & Butch Reed vs. Rock N Roll Express (3/28/84) 40. Midnight Express vs. Rock N Roll Express (No DQ: Tag Titles vs. $50,000) (5/23/84) 41. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (No DQ) (9/28/84) 42. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (OKC 5/27/84) 43. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (1/21/85) 44. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Rock N Roll Express & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (1/18/85) 45. Ernie Ladd & Butch Reed vs. Magnum TA & Master G (Street Fight) (11/4/84) 46. Brickhouse Brown & Master Gee vs. Butch Reed & Ernie Ladd (10/21/84) 47. Mr. Wrestling II & Junkyard Dog vs. Matt Borne & Ted DiBiase (2/16/83) 48. Mr. Olympia vs. Paul Orndorff (2/3/82) 49. Bob Roop vs. Ted DiBiase (4/2/82) 50. Butch Reed v. Iron Sheik (4/8/83) 51. Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (4/15/85) 52. Adrian Street vs. Terry Taylor (Loser Leaves Town) (12/7/84) 53. Junkyard Dog vs. Nick Bockwinkel (6/11/82) 54. Rock N Roll Express & Butch Reed vs. Dr. Death, Kamala & One Man Gang (2/25/85) 55. Killer Khan v. Chris Adams (9/9/84) 56. Kevin Von Erich vs. Chris Adams (1/18/85) 57. Adrian Street vs. Chris Adams (10/10/84) 58. Rock N Roll Express vs. Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts (6/24/85) -- Maybe a rewatch will change my mind, but I didn't really get into this all that much. I had pretty high expectations, but it still didn't do much for me. 59. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Gordy (Texas Tornado Match) (1/21/85) 60. Stagger Lee & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Matt Borne (12/18/82)

I'm not really looking for anything specific when I watch a match myself. It's more of a case where I let the wrestlers lead the way and then write what I think of it afterwards. Heat is a factor at times, but it's not really incidental in Mid South. There are times in these matches where you see them bring the crowd up and down through their work in the ring, or they turn around what starts off as a less enthused crowd. So yeah, it's a big factor. It's not noise heat like a big Hogan match at MSG most of the time in these. JYD was pretty broken down by '84, but I can think of worse wrestlers, even on this set. Have you watched Master G yet? And jdw is watching this? Great! I know he's not interested in making a ballot, but I would love to hear his thoughts on this stuff.

Holy crap, Flair/Taylor from 6/1/85 is a classic. Flair is beyond words amazing in that match, and it's also a good performance from Taylor, even if he is totally being carried at times (love Flair having to lift his own leg so a blown up Taylor could apply a figure four leglock). I wouldn't go as far to call Taylor a broomstick, but he ran out of gas halfway through this match, and then Flair turned out this amazing performance to disguise it. My new working #1.

So I've watched everything through the end of Disc 3 now and part of Disc 4 and have revised my rankings at this point. Explanations below. 1. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Butch Reed & Jim Neidhart (Cage Match) (12/25/83) -- TomK had earlier questioned what put the MX/RRX Houston match ahead of this one for me. I'll talk more about it below, but it basically has to do with being a huge mark for Bobby Eaton hammerlock spots. That said, I loved Flair/Taylor so much, and when I went back to revise this, my thought was that it was better than the Houston match, but not as good as the cage match. Then I wondered if that was the case why I had the cage match #1. So I flipped it back. The cage match is back in its rightful spot as #1, and while I've seen a handful of matches that come close, I haven't seen anything yet that I definitely think is better. 2. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/85) -- Loved this match. Prior to watching this, I had watched the Flair/Kerry match from 4/27, which left a really sour taste for reasons I'll elaborate more about when I talk about that match. One thing I always liked about Flair in Mid South was that he pushed like he deserved to be champion, even if he did escape with the belt by the skin of his teeth. Flair/Kerry felt more like Flair/Hawk or Flair/Luger with some type of screwjob at the end, and all I could think was if they didn't want Kerry looking bad, why not make the match non-title and have Kerry win clean, instead of creating a result that pretty much meant nothing. This was more the Flair in Mid South looking like the deserving NWA champ that I really liked. Flair spots have been seen so many times by wrestling fans that I think it's easy to take them for granted or forget how good they are. Holding the ropes while applying an armbar is pretty basic, but it's majorly effective when the teenage girl on the front row is hopping the railing and arguing face-to-face with the ref trying to point out the cheating. I also really LOVED how Taylor would outwrestle Flair, and Flair would respond by ... shaking his hand. At one point, they get into a shoving match and Flair's response is to casually look away and go to the ropes, which just seems even more insulting than getting in his face and screaming at him. And while this finish is a bit of a lucky finish for Flair also, in the body of the match, he didn't look like a loser and held his own. I'm talking almost entirely about Flair, which isn't to take anything away from Taylor. I do think one of the other Flair/Taylor matches is more a showcase for Taylor, but this one is a total showcase for Ric Flair. I expect this to fall at some point, but for now, it's here. 3. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (6/8/84) -- As I mentioned before, I'm a huge fan of Bobby Eaton hammerlock stuff. Don't get me wrong, I still love this match and still think it will finish pretty highly, but I think I overrated because of a few great spots from Eaton originally. That said, it's fun to watch Ladd keep up with the new hot tag teams who've come in and turned business around, and while some have questioned it, I actually loved the spray finish and the post-match brawl was awesome. I could see myself flipping this and Flair/Taylor at some point, but it's a close call. 4. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (4/28/85) During the nomination process for this set, I wrote the following about this match: I've seen things I've liked better since then, but I'm still a fan of this match for the same reasons. I also thought this was a great showcase for Taylor, as I mentioned before, mainly because of his leg selling. 5. Ted DiBiase vs. Brad Armstrong (2/10/85) -- I really thought this was awesome. I had watched this a couple of years ago and loved it, but knew Phil was down on this for being pretty generic, so I was expecting to watch it and not think as much of it this time around. If anything, I think I liked it even more. DiBiase is a guy who I think is a better house show wrestler than a TV camera wrestler, and it shows here. Yes, DiBiase has had some good TV matches, but he turned up the volume with his big, overstated reactions to Armstrong's offense and occasionally punch drunk selling that I think he's even better when he's more exaggerated. Armstrong is someone I like, but this is more of a DiBiase showcase. I think this is a good match to show those who don't really get the Duggan series an example of DiBiase having a hot, competitive 15-minute match with someone lower on the totem pole, and giving them just the right amount of offense but still winning in the end. This is the one that I think people should point to as DiBiase's signature Mid South match. 6. Ted Dibiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Tuxedo, Cage match ) (3/22/85) -- Okay, so I said a few days ago that I thought I might rank the street fight ahead of this. I was WAY wrong on that one. Maybe seeing all three of the DiBiase/Duggan matches in order, and maybe seeing the video package, is what turned me around here. This is all about revenge and hate and settling something important. I'm guessing because the video package was hyping a New Orleans match that they were doing this around the horn at this point. I'd like to see some of the others to see how they compare also. I can definitely see goodhelmet's point about this being the pinnacle of the Mid South style. It won't be my #1, but I won't argue with anyone who doesn't have it #1, and it will be near the top of my ballot. 7. Ted Dibiase vs. Jim Duggan (No DQ) (3/8/85) -- I think the all stips match is a good display for both guys, showing what they could do at that point in time. DiBiase is the heel who's obviously calling things here, but this I think is Duggan's chance to shine. The facial expressions and timing of comebacks couldn't really be much better. I think when people see how Doc does his comebacks as they get further into this set, they'll see how Duggan influenced him as a babyface also. This was great. 8. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Brickhouse Brown, Bill Dundee & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (11/16/84) -- Buddy Landell and the Guerreros should be required to be one of the teams in every six man tag ever. You don't have Landell and the Guerreros, you can't have a six-man. Landell always like to do this spot where he misses an elbow drop repeatedly, but when you add the Guerreros to that formula, it gets even more awesome. So many intricate sequences here, and good chemistry with everyone. I do wish Brickhouse Brown would have lasted longer, because I actually liked him more than Dundee or Lothario in this match. I don't remember Brown being this good as a heel in late 80s World Class, but he rocks here. 9. Ted DiBiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (Street Fight) (7/29/83) -- I've talked about this before. I still love this match, but the other two do blow it away. 10. Mr. Olympia vs. Chavo Guerrerro (6/24/83) -- I've talked about this before. Some will wonder why I have this ranked so "low", but I don't see it in those terms. I just see all these other matches that I like even more, and that shouldn't take anything away from this in the process. 11. Butch Reed vs. Skip Young (9/23/84) Here's what I wrote about this during the nomination process. My thoughts haven't changed much. 12. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (5/4/85) -- To me, this is the MUCH better of the two Flair/Kerry matches on this set. If there's a black mark against it, it's that Flair's title matches, especially against guys like Taylor and Reed, seem to build and build, so when they get to the point where they're going all action, they've laid some really strong groundwork. Not so much the case here, but still fun and exciting. That said, this and the other Kerry/Flair match still feel prophetic, because you're seeing someone who's not really being protected as champ all that much repeating spots and entire sequences ad nauseum. Great spots, but very familiar ones. 13. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted Dibiase & Matt Borne (Loser Leaves Town) (10/27/82) -- Talked about this one before, and still feel the same way. 14. Rock N Roll Express & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Ernie Ladd (7/2/84) -- This one is really good, especially the awesome heat on Morton and all the Bobby Eaton cheating. Several steps below the Houston match for me with a finish I didn't care for (mainly because Ladd was getting the win), but still great fun. 15. Brad Armstrong vs. Ted DiBiase (1/16/85) -- Not as good as the house show match, although it's kind of a lesser "signature" DiBiase match. Worth seeing and great fun. Random thoughts on other matches: 16. The Fantastics vs. Dr. Death & Jake Roberts (4/14/85) 17. The Fantastics vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (10/12/84) 18. Mr. Olympia vs. Bob Roop (7/15/82) 19. One Man Gang vs. Buck Robley (Lumberjack Match) (9/15/82) 20. Dusty Rhodes & Jim Duggan vs. Butch Reed & Hercules Hernandez (8/19/84) 21. The Fantastics & Hacksaw Duggan vs. Midnight Express & Jim Cornette (7/20/84) 22. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (Tulsa 5/27/84) 23. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (OKC 8/9/84) 24. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (Scaffold Match) (12/2/84) -- Don't get the dislike for this one. Scaffold matches are pretty limiting, but they managed to do some great spots in a very small space. Morton crawling under Condrey and Gibson to get at the terrified Eaton is great! 25. Rock N Roll Express vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (2/13/85) -- I like the Guerreros and all, but I think people are overrating them because of their offense. Still, good match. 26. Bob Roop vs. Mike George (12/16/81) 27. Midnight Express vs. Bill Dundee & Porkchop Cash (4/6/84) 28. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (4/28/85) -- Good match, but also features everything people eventually grew to hate about Flair title defenses, and matches like this eventually killed him as a major draw. 29. Magnum TA v. Ted DiBiase (7/6/84) 30. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Midnight Express (2/10/84) 31. Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Hacksaw Duggan (8/18/82) 32. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Dusty Rhodes (5/20/83) 33. Midnight Express vs. Bill Watts & Stagger Lee (4/22/84) 34. Buddy Landel & Butch Reed vs. Rock N Roll Express (3/28/84) 35. Midnight Express vs. Rock N Roll Express (No DQ: Tag Titles vs. $50,000) (5/23/84) 36. The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (No DQ) (9/28/84) -- Houston No DQ matches are weird, because they either don't work the stip into the match at all, or they still hide their cheating from the referee. Good match, though, especially for Bobby Eaton doing his thing. 37. Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (OKC 5/27/84) 38. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (1/21/85) -- I don't like this feud as much as I remember, but I still do like it. That said, this felt like Eaton especially was working injured, and he may have been, because he doesn't take a lot of bumps, and this is mainly built around stalling and really slow pacing. That doesn't bother me, but they have another match on the set where I think they did that same style better. 39. Buddy Landel, Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs. Rock N Roll Express & Jose Lothario (Elimination Match) (1/18/85) -- As much as I liked the other Landell/Guerreros six-man, I didn't like this one as much, mainly due to it not being much of a match, and instead a big heel comedy opening followed by an out of nowhere pinfall. 40. Ernie Ladd & Butch Reed vs. Magnum TA & Master G (Street Fight) (11/4/84) 41. Brickhouse Brown & Master Gee vs. Butch Reed & Ernie Ladd (10/21/84) -- Master G is awful, but I like everyone else in these matches. Still, too uneven to be ranked all that high, because they're both good at times and pretty bad at times, depending on who's in the ring. 42. Mr. Wrestling II & Junkyard Dog vs. Matt Borne & Ted DiBiase (2/16/83) 43. Mr. Olympia vs. Paul Orndorff (2/3/82) 44. Bob Roop vs. Ted DiBiase (4/2/82) 45. Butch Reed v. Iron Sheik (4/8/83) 46. Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (4/15/85) -- I thought I'd like this one a lot more than I did. It was a decent tag match, but the DWB don't really know what to do with someone who can sell as well as Morton, and so Morton doesn't really go all out with the selling as a result. I don't think the chemistry is here. I think the Fantastics are behind the Rock & Rolls as a team, but I do think they had better chemistry with the Dirty White Boys. 47. Adrian Street vs. Terry Taylor (Loser Leaves Town) (12/7/84) 48. Junkyard Dog vs. Nick Bockwinkel (6/11/82) 49. Rock N Roll Express & Butch Reed vs. Dr. Death, Kamala & One Man Gang (2/25/85) 50. Killer Khan v. Chris Adams (9/9/84) 51. Kevin Von Erich vs. Chris Adams (1/18/85) 52. Adrian Street vs. Chris Adams (10/10/84) 53. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Gordy (Texas Tornado Match) (1/21/85) -- I'm probably ranking this too low, because I didn't dislike it, but I'm not a fan of Texas Tornado matches in general. This one really shows off why, because even if the action is great, they aren't really building to anything and it seems pretty aimless. It also requires great camerawork, which this didn't have. 54. Stagger Lee & Mr. Olympia vs. Ted DiBiase & Matt Borne (12/18/82)

WWF -- SNME aired 1/2 on NBC and was taped 12/7 in Landover, MD. Dave felt Vince and Jesse did a much better job this time around than they did last time by ridiculously overacting. They've started putting Hogan's matches toward the end to build ratings for the whole show, where the previous mindset was that they put him early to ensure everyone would see him before going to sleep. Says the best match on the card was Strike Force vs The Bolsheviks, which was **1/2 and isn't saying much, and all the other matches were horrible, although the Andre run-in was really well done. Says he is starting to warm up to Andre as a heel, but it's going to end when he realizes he has to see him in a match. -- Jumping Bomb Angels vs Glamour Girls can be added to the lineup for the Royal Rumble on USA. -- Titan has began running Bunkhouse Stampedes on house shows -- 12/26 in Chicago drew 12,000 and a $143,000 gate headlined by Hulk Hogan vs One Man Gang with Nick Bockwinkel as referee; 12/28 in Pittsburgh drew 5,000 headlined by Randy Savage vs Honky Tonk Man; 12/30 in Providence drew 2,500 headlined by Rick Rude vs Paul Orndorff in a cage match; 12/26 in New Haven, CT drew 6,000 fans headlined by Rick Rude vs Randy Savage in a 20-minute draw; 12/27 at the Capital Centre drew 13,000 for Hogan & Bigelow vs Andre & Bundy; 12/29 in Hershey, PA drew 6,500 headlined by Savage vs Honky Tonk Man -- 12/26 at MSG sold out headlined by Savage vs Honky Tonk Man -- Meltzer says Steamboat is working in slow motion on house shows and tries so hard to be graceful that he looks more like Nuryev than a wrestler -- John Studd is scheduled to return at the Huntsville, AL TV tapings -- King Kong Bundy is leaving on sabattical while Orndorff has given notice. Orndorff plans to open a chain on bowling allies in the South. Ironically, his right arm is so weak that he can't even lift a bowling ball. -- Hogan will be gone from Wrestlemania IV until sometime in June to film his movie. "Since he's blading regularly, I guess he wants his forehead to look good for the part," joked Meltzer. Dave says that's not nearly as significant as you'd think since they'll be taking several weeks in April off after Wrestlemania anyway -- The NBC special on 2/5 is a definite -- Hogan's wife Linda is expecting their first child in April -- Wrestlers are now being fined if they whip their opponents into the guard rail (throat drops and running heads into it is fine, but no whips), and fines are also being issued for violating the dress code and missing shows -- Doug Somers is coming in as a jobber in March NWA -- Meltzer says they really need to heat up Bunkhouse Stampede within the next two weeks, and also make it more apparent to viewers that the show is available on PPV. Meltzer also can't believe they have yet to announce a complete card. -- Meltzer does commend them for moving a lot of the TBS television into the arenas, and feels it has made for better production values and made the shows feel more lively. He strongly criticizes them for starting matches without showing the finishes on television, stating he doesn't think they understand how much that angers fans and how minor league it seems. He said he personally doesn't mind if you get a good 8-10 minutes of action before the show goes off the air, but most fans really hate it. -- The Lex Luger babyface turn is getting over really well on house shows, drawing big in Atlanta and Greensboro. He worries that Luger has already become "one of the guys", doing saves for guys like Ron Garvin and getting saved back, and that if they keep doing that, he'll turn into a new Nikita Koloff, in that he'll be hugely over for a very short period of time and then no one will care. "Whoever has been working with him the past year certainly has earned their teaching credential." -- In general, Dave is hearing lots of complaints about live shows. He says they need to find and push some new faces at the top of the cards in a major way. He says they need one or two guys to stand out of the pack. JCP, however, prides themselves on not putting all their eggs in one basket, and criticizes the WWF internally all the time for overly relying on Hogan. However, Meltzer feels that while the Horsemen were over great as a unit, he feels like over time, instead of the group rising to Flair's level, he sunk to theirs, and just became another face in the pack. -- The return of Ole Anderson to the Omni on 1/1 drew 12,700 fans. The whole card was taped, and Meltzer expects it to air on TBS. Results: Sting, Jimmy Garvin & Ricky Santana beat Terry Taylor, Mike Rotunda & Kevin Sullivan in 10:14; Ron Garvin pinned Eddie Gilbert in 12:14; Sheepherders beat Robert Gibson & Ricky Santana in 10:15 (Gibson looked really bad, having just returned from injury, and botched a dropkick bad and the fans turned on him); Barry Windham drew Larry Zbyszko in 20:00; Road Warrior Animal beat Warlord in 8:00 by DQ when Barbarian interfered, but Sting made the save (match was scheduled to be a tag match, but Hawk no-showed; Animal tripped during his entrance for the third time in the past month); Luger & Ole beat Arn & Tully in 19:00; Flair pinned Hayes in 15:46 (Flair was cheered as much as Hayes and neither guy got booed); Dusty won a Bunkhouse Stampede. -- They screwed up announcing Dusty won the 1/1 Bunkhouse by announcing it on their 12/31 TV -- The Road Warriors vs Powers of Pain bench press contest is set for 1/30 in Greensboro -- 12/28 in St. Louis drew 4,000 and $40,000 headlined by Flair vs Sting and a Bunkhouse Stampede won by Steve Williams. Meltzer said Dick Murdoch did the best squash match and interview he had seen in ages on that show, and said "Working for your family is like working for an unemployment agency" to David Crockett, which Dave thought was a great line. He also said even Luger did a great interview. -- Says he's getting lots of complaints about the cameramen doing too many shots of women in the audience. "Showing the girls is okay but after 40 or 50 shots, and in the middle of high spots during the match, it serves no purpose. It's one thing if it's the valets, but not the girls in the audience." -- Rick Steiner suffered a major bicep tear when he was horsing around in the locker room with Steve Williams and Road Warrior Hawk -- Ricky Morton is still out with his knee injury, and also has a broken nose -- The New Breed is supposed to be heel now and feud with Brad Armstrong and Tim Horner. At least that was the plan until Sean Royal never came back from Christmas vacation. -- Thunderfoot #1 (Joel Deaton) got notice that he was being let go after Denny Brown never came back after Christmas also -- 12/30 in Chicago drew 3,500 headlined by Flair vs Sting; 1/2 in Greensboro drew 12,457 headlined by Ric Flair vs Michael Hayes; 1/3 in Baltimore drew 7,000 and a $72,000 gate headlined by Flair vs Hayes and Luger vs Arn Anderson -- Kevin Sullivan's stable will include Rick Steiner, Mike Rotunda and possibly Steve Williams, and be called The Varsity Club -- Al Blake (Vladimir Pietrov) was sentenced to six years in prison on cocaine trafficking conviction. He will be eligible for parole in 2 years, although at that time, he will not be able to leave Minnesota so he could only wrestle for the AWA or Larry Sharkey's Pro Wrestling America -- Rumors that Paul Boesch would be coming out of retirement to promote Houston shows for the NWA are incorrect. -- Japanese newspapers were reporting Killer Khan had signed with the NWA but Meltzer knew nothing about it -- Jobber Chance McQuaid blew out his knee in his match with Mike Rotunda that aired the previous Sunday WCCW -- "I know you've been waiting all week for the good news. Fritz is alive. Yes, folks, it was touch-and-go for 48 hours, but the head of pro wrestling's immoral majority survived a heart attack, stroke, emphyzema and whatever other maladies sick minds could come up with," said Dave Meltzer. It was announced on the weekend Ft. Worth TV that Fritz didn't suffer a heart attack as was originally feared, although there was "partial paralysis". One of the local TV stations covered the angle as news. The phrase heart attack was never actually used by Marc Lowrance. Lowrance went on the air with two interruptions of the previously taped show, and stated that Fritz was in critical condition and they were worried he wouldn't make it through the night. "It's a pretty hardcore angle to be sure, but one made a lot worse since they were playing off the sympathy from the deaths of David and Mike, although no lack of taste or decency from this promotion will ever surprise me." Kerry was doing interviews claiming that Gordy tried to kill his father while Lowrance was saying that it appeared Fritz would not live out Christmas. They're doing lots of Freebirds (Gordy/Roberts/Parsons)/Von Erichs brawls on house shows, and one thing the angle has done is get Gordy over as a heel who gets booed. Meltzer says this is an accomplishment because Gordy was always cheered more than booed when working Texas shows for the UWF. -- Everyone in wrestling is saying Ken Mantell is in charge of World Class. Dave has heard he owns a controlling interest, but two of his sources insist he only owns 30% and that the Von Erichs still control majority interest. Meltzer said regardless, Fritz is definitely not out of the business, and will not allow the angle to be his last appearance. He is expected to make a comeback at some point in '88, but probably not as a wrestler. "In the theory of promoting wrestling, running such a hardcore angle on someone makes them the lead babyface, so why would Ken Mantell, now in charge and attempting to turn the fortunes of the office around, make his lead babyface a 58-year old man?" Meltzer thinks that they should phase Kevin down, if not completely out, and that Kerry is marketable, but it's hard to bank the future of the territory on someone working on one leg. -- The show on Christmas at Reunion went past 1AM. After the angle, Kevin, Kerry and Fritz went to Baylor Hospital, did a worked press conference and then went back to Dallas to wrestle Al Perez, a match which he lost because his head wasn't into it according tot he storyline. The original plan was for Chris Adams to replace Kerry, but that was changed at the last minute. It's not known if that was a Fritz or Mantell decision. -- Dave feels aside from the big angle, Mantell has done a great job as booker since taking over and things have been much better. -- John Tatum and Jack Victory won the Texas tag titles on 12/28 in Fort Worth. Tony Atlas and Skip Young were the champions, but Atlas had already left the territory. In the match, Young wrestled both heels for a while before Solomon Grundy came into help, but they wound up losing anyway. -- 12/28 show drew at least 1,000 with new ticket prices -- Eric Embry has bleached his hair blonde -- Shaun Simpson and Marc Lowrance made a car commercial. Lowrance does fall-by-fall as Simpson wrestles against "price reductions". They do the invisible man gimmick in the commercial, with Simpson taking bumps and finally getting pinned by lower prices -- Al Perez defends the World Class title (which Meltzer calls the Worth-lass title) on 1/8 in Dallas against Terry Gordy. Perez is being portrayed as the babyface. -- Wild West is history. The last three weeks of TV have been repeats and they have no arenas booked going forward. -- Kerry's ankle is giving him tons of trouble. Meltzer says he was walking really well before he went back to working a full schedule. -- John Tatum is ripping off Michael Hayes mannerisms in his interviews -- Eric Embry and Shaun Simpson had a scaffold match on 12/27 in Belton. Simpson was so scared he couldn't even stand up. Embry carried the whole match and took the bump. MEMPHIS -- After all the speculation, no one turned heel on 12/28. Lawler won the tournament and the show drew 5,200 fans. Lawler beat Scott Hall via DQ. Hall used a piledriver not knowing it was illegal in Memphis and they had to explain it on television. Bill Dundee beat Jeff Jarrett by countout when Hector Guerrero held Jarrett's leg from under the ring and wouldn't let him back in, but Dundee didn't see or know this was happening. Finally, Lawler and Dundee had a match, which Lawler won by pinning Dundee after a double TKO. -- Renegade Tobacco Company is now sponsoring the promotion. They have banners on the ring and are mentioned frequently on the show, and a Renegade Tobacco Company tournament will conclude in June. Supposedly, the tournament will award $250,000 to the winner, so people like Jimmy Valiant and Koko Ware will be returning. Valiant's contract with Crockett had just expired, and Meltzer says it makes sense for him to return to Memphis since he was a big draw at one time there. Ware he said makes no sense, although he did do a clean job to Greg Valentine on television. Still, Meltzer can't see the WWF dumping Ware with the Piledriver album out. -- 1/4 in Memphis has Lawler vs Dundee with Lawler putting up the diamond ring and Dundee putting up $5,000. You would think Dundee would be turning in the match, but probably not since it's too expected. Michaels and Jannetty will also return to defend the Southern tag titles against Scott Hall and Ken Wayne, and Jeff Jarrett will face Hector Guerrero in a lumberjack match -- Bobby Jaggers left Memphis after dropping Loser Leaves Town matches to Hall and Billy Joe Travis -- Manny Fernandez may have his push lessened after getting in scuffles with fans on two occasions -- Meltzer said the TV interviews with Lawler, Dundee, Jarrett and Hall were really good, but the size difference between Hall and the others looked ridiculous STAMPEDE -- Things are hot here. 12/18 in Calgary drew 1,600 fans. Matches were Hashif Khan (Shinya Hashimoto) vs Jonathan Holiday; Brick Bronsky vs Goldie Rogers; Great Gama & Garfield Portz vs Mr. Hito & Beef Wellington; Rhonda Singh vs Delta Dawn; Bruce Hart & Brian Pillman vs Jerry Morrow & Kerry Brown; Steve DiSalvo vs Phil LaFleur; Owen Hart & Jason the Terrible vs Bad News Allen & Makhan Singh. In the main event, Jason did a dive into the crowd and knocked several fans out of their chairs, with one having to be taken to the hospital via ambulance. Allen elbowed a pregnant woman while brawling in the crowd as well. -- 12/19 in Edmonton drew 1,200 headlined by Allen & Singh vs Owen & Jason -- Johnny Smith is gone -- Suni War Cloud and Rip Rogers are headed in HAWAII -- Mrs. Maivia ran a card on 12/16 in Honolulu headlined by Chris Adams vs Buddy Roberts that drew 400. Kevin Von Erich and Jimmy Snuka both no-showed, but Rocky Johnson did appear. OREGON -- Len Denton is impressing and the crowds are good. -- There is a new commission trying to run wrestling using boxing guidelines. They want to replace the wrestling referees with boxing referees, want everyone at ringside licensed, four ropes instead of three, no more blading, and testing for marijuana and cocaine. One wrestler already tested positive for marijuana. Don Owen is furious, mainly because they won't be so strict on the WWF. The commission sent out a letter saying all cuts will be inspected and if they're a result of blading, the wrestler will be suspended -- Rip Oliver is leaving, scheduled to start back with the WWF on 1/4. Oliver was let go after Thanksgiving, but now they have an open spot for him. Oliver headlined the 12/25 show, which was a sellout of 700 and a $4,000 house, which is double the normal attendance -- 12/26 in Portland drew a sellout with hundreds turned away; 12/28 in Hoquiam, WA drew 400 fans CENTRAL STATES -- 12/25 in St. Joseph drew 520 fans, headlined by Dave Peterson vs Bulldog Bob Brown. Abdullah the Butcher no-showed, and his announced replacement Jerry Blackwell also no-showed. Mike Stone, one half of the tag champs, wasn't there due to bad weather, and Colt Steele also wasn't there. CONTINENTAL -- The mink coat tournament drew 1,800 fans to Birmingham on 12/28, which is about quadruple what they've been averaging. Still, only half of the advertised matches actually took place. -- The Memphis Big Bubba never showed up here. Scott Armstrong has left the area and Larry Hamilton has not returned since breaking his ankle in a car accident -- 12/25 in Knoxville drew a near sellout NJPW -- Inoki did a clean pinfall job for a newcomer named "Big Ben Bader" (my note: ha!) on 12/27 at the Tokyo Dome in 2:49. New Japan felt they needed Inoki feuding with a big American start to get TV ratings up. Also, this was going to be famous comedian Takeshi Kitano's first appearance and they wanted to put some heat on him in his quest to finish Inoki off. So, the mindset was that Inoki doing a job would get Kitano over and create a new Hansen/Brody level gaijin. It was the first job Inoki had done in more than two years, and before that, over 10 years.) The card was supposed to be Inoki vs Riki Choshu in the main event, which is what drew the crowd and the high ratings. There was also a tag match advertised as "Big Ben Bader" (my note: ha again!) and Masa Saito against Tatsumi Fujinami and Kengo Kimura. Before the tag was about to start, Kitano's friends grabbed the mic and challenged Inoki to a match. The fans could see where this was going and hated it, and started throwing eggs, programs, orange juice containers and beer cans at the ring. Then, Choshu came out and Saito tried to stop Choshu from starting his match with Inoki. Inoki grabbed the mic and said he would wrestle both Choshu and Bader. Fujinami and Kimura then came out for their tag match and Saito came out. Choshu didn't want to come out, but finally did. Fans were screaming "Stop! Stop this match!" when Choshu started to wrestle Kengo Kimura. He won clean with the lariat, but the fans hated it so much it didn't have a chance. Finally, Inoki/Choshu happened but only went 6:06, although it was a hot match where Choshu bled after hitting the ringpost, and Inoki kept punching his head before applying the octopus, which caused Hiroshi Hase to run in and save Choshu and give Inoki the win by DQ. The fans started rioting again and caused so much damage in the hall that a few days later, the Tokyo Sumo Association banned pro wrestling from the Sumo Hall. Baba had already been banned from the building because he signed sumo wrestlers Hiroshi Wajima and John Tenta. Inoki is now without a building in Tokyo except for Korauken Hall, which only seats 2,000. Meltzer said this is devastating for them, because they sold out all but one time in 1987. -- Kitano was like the Johnny Carson of Japan. Something happened at some point in one of the scandal mags and Kitano and his buddies beat up the reporter, so he was suspended from television -- The news got worse for them a few days later when TV-Asahi moved them from prime time on Monday nights to Mondays at midnight. Not only will that cut down their audience, but in Japan, the networks pay the promotions money to be able to broadcast their shows. Because they're in a weaker time slot, TV-Asahi will be paying New Japan much less money. This should be effective in April. -- Inoki didn't offer 1988 contracts to Akira Maeda, Kazuo Yamazaki or Osamu Kido, and they have all been cut loose. Dave says Maeda was hugely popular, but really screwed himself by shootkicking Choshu. Yamazaki holds one half of the tag titles (with Fujiwara), and Kido is a veteran without a lot of charisma. -- Meltzer says Inoki faces crises like these annually and always comes back, but this time, it may be the real thing, because he is banking everything on Inoki vs Takeshi Kitano while phasing down Choshu. Choshu was being hurt because Inoki was the moral victor in their match, and also because he would never get the chance to do a revenge match with Maeda. -- Adrian Adonis and Bob Orton will return as a tag team from 1/25 to 2/5 -- Seji Sakaguchi really wants Sting and Bubba Rogers to come in for shows, moreso than Arn, Tully, Dusty or even Flair -- Owen Hart will feud with Hiroshi Hase over the junior heavyweight title AJPW -- Curt Hennig had bad matches and didn't get over on the recent tour, which really surprised him. Hennig will only be staying a week or two before returning to the AWA. OTHER -- Timothy Flowers is putting together a few independent cards in Northwest Washington featuring Buddy Rose and Col. DeBeers -- The bill to abolish the Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission has been put on hold for six months, but with JJ Bins out of office, it appears wrestling promotions can begin using the blade again -- Global Wrestling out of Florida is scheduled to start tapings in Miami next weekend -- Jerry Blackwell's Southern Championship Wrestling is scheduled to tape on 1/13 at Miss Kitty's in Marietta. The second taping will be on 1/24 and will feature the Von Erichs and Terry Funk -- Savoldi's ICW has announced they are bringing in Blackjack Mulligan, Bruiser Brody, Rocky Johnson, SD Jones, Tiger Chung Lee, the Iron Sheik, Tony Atlas, the Moondogs, Bob Backlund and Adrian Street. They held a card on 12/29 at Miami Marine Stadium with $25 tickets, and featuring a live concert from Bill Haley & The Comets (of "Rock Around The Clock" fame)

I can honestly say I've really tried to make an effort lately to not get into these discussions, because they tend to be repetitive. I think we've even had the discussion about Tony Jones, Jim Ross and steroids before. But I have to refer back to this quote in the June 30 Associated Press article. "Somebody says you need to put 25 pounds on your upper body. Well, if you have an athletic background and have been around sports for a while, you know there's only one way to do that. Nobody needs to tell you. It's just a tacit understanding." -- "The Professor" Larry Brisco I have no idea who Larry Brisco even is, but it's a quote from someone who is part of the wrestling business (albeit on the fringes) saying the same things. No one in WWE would ever tell anyone to get on steroids. No one would even strongly suggest it, and that's because they don't have to. If a football coach tells his star quarterback that before the next game, he wants him to go on a date, he means "have sex", but he doesn't have to say it because it's just an understanding. It happens all the time. This is the same thing. I'm curious what language you think would be required from Jim Ross to make it pretty clear cut. Do you think the only way you can point out that he was telling Tony Jones to get on the juice is if he says, "Here are some steroids and some syringes. Stick a needle up your ass and bulk up. Take lots of steroids and we'll hire you. Stay small and we won't."? I'm honestly over talking about this stuff too. If you feel the same way, pick up the Mid South DVDs and post more about those and less about this.

We're not talking about other sports. We're talking about wrestling. What does that have to do with wrestling, and how wrestling can eliminate wrestling's problems? And honestly, don't talk about credibility on a show where Hornswaggle is the illegitimate son of Vince McMahon, in a business where guys like Jerry Lawler, Ricky Morton and Rey Misterio have been successful headliners, and in a company that goes out of its way to admit it's fake at any opportunity possible, just to weasel out of finding real solutions to problems like this. Credibility stopped mattering in wrestling a long, long time ago, if in fact it ever did. This is a business where Hulk Hogan once saw a vision of the Ultimate Warrior in the mirror, where the Undertaker resurrected from the dead in front of a paying audience, where the Ultimate Warrior once had ooze come out of his head during a promo, where the Hurricane lived a double life as a superhero and reporter, where people are brothers and then suddenly aren't, where entrance music happens to accompany run-ins, where cameras happen to be present at restaurants and backstage without wrestlers knowing they're even there and where the only thing that gets dropped more than dead bodies is storylines mid-stream. Credibility is a dead issue in wrestling. JR was encouraging him to take steroids so he would be more marketable. That's really all there was to it.

Coming back has definitely strengthened his case. You have to remember that 98% of wrestling fans love Shawn Michaels and don't think he's past his prime, and just as many probably think he's the greatest wrestler in the world. Some even think he's better than ever since returning. He's also headlined some huge shows - way bigger than at any point in the 90s - since returning, which has probably made him appear a stronger draw. And Meltzer always talks of the new Shawn being much more mature -- but then you get his book which was filled with lies, and the recent story in the WON of him throwing a tantrum because Umaga had new tights made that were the same color as HHH's. Not to mention the whole Hogan thing. But he still has that rep now of being a total pro, FWIW. People also see the tags against Somers and Rose in '86, and the matches against Cena in '07, and think he's been a great worker for 20+ years, and thus should be discussed alongside guys like Ric Flair and Kenta Kobashi. I don't agree with HBK's rep, but I do understand how people feel that way. And if you're a WWF fan -- you remember him as the first guy to do the ladder match, first guy to do Hell in a Cell, first and only guy (aside from Bret) to do an Ironman match in the WWF. He's also pushed as the guy in the company who is most synonymous with Wrestlemania (besides Undertaker). Yes, I know he wasn't the first to do some of those things, but that's his rep.

I suspect, without having read the WON yet, that they may use him instead of Khali in the Hogan match now at Wrestlemania.

Not really case of them ever losing interest. He left for health reasons.

By the way, I'll be typing up the 01/11 issue at some point this weekend.