Loss

I don't think TNA is better than WWE. Or even close.

That's good to hear. Imagine if he opened up a wrestling school, though. Those poor kids would DIE.

Flair as #1 is a perfectly obvious and acceptable choice but I don't know if he would be my personal #1. Still, whenever I seek out material from other wrestlers, a Flair match always pops up and 8/10 times, the match rocks. Easy Top 10 choice for me now. Depending on the placement of some luchadores and Japan guys, may break in at #5. Agreed. Flair is still in the running to be #1 overall with me. Still watching boatloads of lucha. The only person not in lucha I see giving him a run for his money is Jumbo Tsuruta, and I'm not sure how I'm finally going to make up my mind for good there. I would be tempted to put Race above Flair in my list because of his work in Japan as well as what I have seen from him stateside. However, the limited amount of footage available may prevent that from happening. Yeah, Race goes in based mostly on his Japanese work, since that's what I've seen. I included him here since he's American born, and the footage that is available suggests that he was consistently amazing. Lawler rules. Look for the comp. You know I will. Loss already explained why this guy rules. I have him far above Benoit on my list and it isn't becuase he is dead. It is because the guy was phenomenal at everything he did. Agreed. You can find tons of Eddy love in these parts long before he died. I love his work and I think he is a great wrestler. Still, I love so many other wrestlers more. Benoit/Guerrero is an interesting comparison, because as we've said before, Benoit has had more good matches and Eddy has had more great ones. There's not really one match you can point to with Benoit as his defining moment, which is both to his advantage and his detriment. Has he been consistently good or has he been consistently great? It's a debate worth having, I think. I want to watch more of his stuff from Mexico before making a final decision on Rey. I feel pretty comfortable with his placing. I'll probably put him ahead of Destroyer the more I think about it, though. Never seen any stateside Destroyer matches. All of his AJ Classic stuff has been great. Agreed. Maybe some will become available some day. I love Terry but I don't know if I will have him as highly as I initially thought I would. It seems everytime I come across a great Funk match, I also find a bad one. Terry Funk may the best ever at switching back and forth between world class wrestler and lunatic madman. My only issue with Funk, and this may end up bringing him down some (just as it might Flair in the end) is how he's cheapened his memory by going LONG past the point he should have retired. When you include both their Japan and U.S. work, easy picks. Without Japan, it would be hard for me to vote for any of them. Yeah, agreed on Hansen and Doc, but I think Vader has had better stuff in the US than in Japan. then you have Terry Gordy who I think had an underwhelming run in Japan compared to his peers but his U.S. stuff blows away most of the work from the above guys. I think I would include him Top Ten American. I couldn't really argue that. I simply have not seen enouugh although I have a bunch of Bockwinkle to go through. Pat Patterson is the one guy I'm grading on a curve, because of his contribution in laying out great matches for other wrestlers in the WWF for over 25 years. He's the only one I'm doing that with, but I think the good footage that does exist, combined with the reputation and the importance he's had, make him kind of a token pick. Brisco is high primarily for his Japanese work, Bockwinkel for consistent excellence everywhere I've seen him. Making comps for these guys raised the stock of all 3 in my book. Arn Anderson in particular is a great, great wrestler. I've always thought highly of him, but man, he's gone through the roof in my book the past few months. Magnum won't make my list because of a lack of longevity but he had a helluva run from 84-86. Just some phenomonal work. He'll end up off of mine too, but if I was doing top 200, he'd be there for sure. I have all of these guys ranked much higher than Loss does. Ricky is Top 20 overall for me. Dibiase and Backlund are Top 10 American. Backlund may end up higher. Steamboat obviously will. I'm comfortable with DiBiase's placing. I love both these guys but I actually like Bobby Eaton better than Morton. I would also lump Tommy Rogers in this list. The more I think about it, Eaton probably belongs slightly ahead of Morton. I think Morton was better in singles matches, which is why he placed higher, but Eaton worked with more partners in more settings and had more great matches. Rogers is someone I need to add. Man, I have to make that Guerreros comp for Jose because I am not seeing it. Maybe I am just missing a big chunk of his career. Love the tag team with Hector in Mid South, and the recent lucha I've watched helped his case quite a bit. I think this is about right although you could lower or raise all of them 5 spots and get no arguments from me. Adonis over Bret was the main thing I struggled with there, but I really think Adonis was the more talented of the two and the far superior bumper, with the main difference being the embarrassing fall-off toward the end. Bret suffered toward the end as well, but not nearly as much. The jury is still out on these guys. Comps are in the works for both so I may change my mind on both ten times before it is finished. I'm honestly not totally committed to Owen at this point, but Rude is a lock. Bubble guys for me. All would land in the lower half of my final list if they made it. I'll probably find a way to get most of them on the list, but may have to make some tough decisions. These guys will not make my list. Why not Slaughter, Buddy Rose or Jake specifically? And for kicks, why not Michaels? Reed and Kerry will make my list. Too many good-great matches to ignore thier gifts. The others won't. What's your take on the argument that all of Kerry's great matches have him doing nothing? I don't agree with it, but some people seem to think he was Ultimate Warrior-level bad.

http://survey.wwe.com/history You can vote for the matches you want to see on the WWE History of the World Title DVD. EVERYONE, please vote Race/Backlund. That match is total Holy Grail material, and people have been seeking it out for years.

Exactly. I don't see the argument here. Isn't this what wrestling is all about? The difference between Lawler and Hogan is the more believable style without the gimmickry, the ability to have good matches as a face and a heel without being carried and better selling. Like? Drawing is a different argument. Talent encompasses plenty without bringing in something else that has a whole world of added factors. Because Armstrong was better. I've already explained that this isn't about impact. If it was, the list would be far too concrete with zero room for interpretation.

Eddy Guerrero is the only guy in wrestling history that I can think of that has had complete, stylistically different peaks in every style someone of his size could conceivably wrestle. He's had great matches as an American main eventer, an American cruiser, a Japanese junior, a Mexican main eventer and a Mexican midcarder. It's quite the amazing feat. He's also shown himself capable of wrestling mat-based scientific matches, brawls and athletic spotfests, and has done all in outstanding fashion. If you ask any five fans what Eddy Guerrero's peak was, you're going to get different answers. Some will say he peaked as a main eventer in WWE. Some will say he peaked with Art Barr as a partner in AAA. Some will say he peaked in WCW around 1997 as an amazing heel. One of the best babyfaces ever, one of the best heels ever and with more longevity, I probably would have considered making him #1. Not quite true. Two separate peaks, 1991-1995, and 2002. Four years is a long time to be really good, and Dustin had terrific matches with Steve Austin (who wasn't great yet at that point), Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Cactus Jack, Bunkhouse Buck, Vader and Rick Rude. He's hurt by most of the best stuff happening on TBS instead of on pay-per-view where it's more immortalized, but in retrospect, it was a hell of a run. 2002 he and Booker were great, but the SD6 was getting all the attention. I preferred the series with Jericho and Christian to anything on Smackdown at that point. This does me no good without specifics. Nikita is there because he came to mind, but most likely will not make my final list. Ring presence counts for a lot, considering how many guys who have way more talent than Nikita don't have that in their favor, and he was also underrated in the ring -- not consistent, but when he had his working boots on, he could really go. He'll end up being cut, so don't worry too much about that.

Two words: United States. I haven't started ranking Japanese guys yet. Nor am I fully convinced that if you take the overall career into consideration, Jumbo is better than Flair. My mind seems to change every day on that.

I'd say Michael Hayes, Tito Santana, Hacksaw Duggan, Buzz Sawyer, Kerry Von Erich and Butch Reed would be the next six, although probably not in that order.

Martel should be on the list. I thought I included him. I guess I didn't. He's better than some people there. The Steamboat ranking is too low and the Gilbert ranking is too high. I'd have Steamboat below Bret, but above Austin. That seems like a comfortable place for him. Gilbert I'd have probably between Backlund and Piper. For Gilbert, the Tupelo Concession Stand Brawl from '79, the match with Tommy Rich against the PYTs from '84 where they brawled up and down Mid South Coliseum, the series with Cactus Jack in TWA in 1990-1991, his '88 feud with Lawler, his '88-'89 stuff against Pillman, Windham and Flair and the '91 feud with Jeff Jarrett are enough to place him. Also had what I remember as a really good match against Tiger Mask at the Spectrum in '82, but I haven't seen it in years. Mid South was a great place for him to show off his personality, but not so much in the ring for the most part. Best matches were as a midcarder with various tag team partners against the Fantastics and Rock & Rolls in '85, and then later against Sam Houston. As for Dundee not having classics against anyone other than Lawler, that's true, but also misleading, considering that he wrestled Memphis the majority of the time and Lawler was always in the top programs, and he definitely was not carried or the lesser guy in any of their matches. I'm now determined to find some Dundee matches against Dutch Mantel or Bobby Eaton or somebody.

Well, for me, the criteria is based on the overall package of talent, but not drawing, because there's zero room for interpretation if you're making a list of draws, because it's just factual and based on numbers. I like that this is more opinion-based. I take different things into consideration. Dusty is lower than some guys on this list for example, but I'll probably end up putting Dusty above many of them if push comes to shove and there's competition for the final spots, just because as a worker, he's one of the best ever at getting away with doing almost nothing and drawing amazing heat in the process. "Ringwork" isn't really specific enough of a criteria for how I'm ranking these people; it's not just athletic ability. It's more than that. I'll explain what's important to me. (1) The ability to put over a storyline in a match. (2) The ability to sell. (3) The ability to bring the role you're playing to the match you're in. (ex: Shelton Benjamin at WM XXII, the heel, playing to the crowd by doing the daredevil highspots would be the EXACT opposite of this.) (4) The ability to get heat. (5) The ability to wrestle matches that make sense. (6) The ability to make 1-5 work without doing something so ridiculous that it's impossible to stay focused on the match. (6) Longevity. (7) Good-great matches with a wide variety of opponents.

So I'm starting to at least form somewhat of a list for my top 100 picks at Smarkschoice. I'd post this there, but I think this qualifies as spoilers, and they don't really care for that. Anyway, right now, I'm just trying to sort out the American and Canadian guys and where I stand on all of them before diving into the rest of the world. This will probably change a million times between now and then, but I'm pretty sure this is the group of guys I'm going to be ranking, somewhere close to this order. Notable (and intentional) misses include HHH, Kurt Angle, Hulk Hogan (who I'm still going back and forth over whether or not I want to include), Chris Jericho, and a few others I'm not thinking of that I'm sure some will mention and I'll wonder how I could have possibly forgotten them. As a pre-note, my bias toward Southern tag matches has me ranking Ricky Morton a lot higher than most would. Sadly, not all of these guys will make my top 100, but most of the ones near the top will. Anyway, here's the (very rough) draft. Again, THIS IS NOT MY FINAL LIST. Part of the reason I am posting this is because I'm sure someone is bound to disagree with something, and maybe there are some things I'll end up rethinking. 1. Ric Flair 2. Harley Race 3. Jerry Lawler 4. Eddy Guerrero 5. Chris Benoit 6. Vader 7. Jack Brisco 8. Arn Anderson 9. Terry Funk 10. The Destroyer 11. Ricky Morton 12. Stan Hansen 13. Rey Misterio Jr 14. Bobby Eaton 15. Dick Murdoch 16. Terry Gordy 17. Adrian Adonis 18. Bret Hart 19. Steve Austin 20. Eddie Gilbert 21. Bill Dundee 22. Barry Windham 23. Ted DiBiase 24. Rick Rude 25. Dennis Condrey 26. Owen Hart 27. Tully Blanchard 28. Randy Savage 29. Sgt. Slaughter 30. Ricky Steamboat 31. Dustin Rhodes 32. Shawn Michaels 33. Buddy Rose 34. Chavo Guerrero 35. Bob Backlund 36. Roddy Piper 37. Larry Zbyszko 38. Pat Patterson 39. William Regal 40. Brad Armstrong 41. Nick Bockwinkel 42. Curt Hennig 43. Jake Roberts 44. Sting 45. Don Muraco 46. Ken Patera 47. Brian Pillman 48. Steve Williams 49. The Rock 50. Ron Garvin 51. Nikita Koloff 52. Magnum TA 53. Dusty Rhodes

This could realistically spark another wrestling war far more than TNA's existence could, considering that WWE has really made attempts to tap into the Hispanic market in the past few years, it's currently their fastest growing market and lucha libre has traditionally drawn better than WWE in the cities Meltzer mentioned.

I think both HHH and HBK are too old at this point to do the DX role. It would be embarrassing, sort of like the middle-aged NWO guys trying to act hip.

Cena is facing fan backlash and lots of internal criticism over whether or not he should be in his spot, in addition to the normal pressures that come with being the top babyface, the world champ and a main event guy. He's supposedly handling it all very well. I would imagine a typical day at the office for Cena right now is very stressful.

Rougeaus were Jacques & Raymond. Quebecers were Jacques Rougeau & Carl Ouelette. They also were called The Amazing French Canadians while in WCW. Jacques was awesome, and the others weren't bad either. Lafitte didn't light the world on fire or anything, but he did have that surprisingly good match with Bret Hart at In Your House III. Far from the best, but far from the worst, because he at least had one shining moment. Plenty of heels in WWE have had none.

I'd guess Meltzer knows what happened and isn't reporting it. There's a certain responsibility that comes with being a journalist, and if this was publicized, he may lose some key sources in WWE. That said, I want to know what happened because I'm curious, but Meltzer will probably never report it because he would be jeopardizing the future of the Observer. Keller is more reckless, and it wouldn't surprise me at all with him, but he also makes up at least half of his news, so we'll never know.

Anyone who called Stephanie McMahon a cunt would be fired on the spot, and possibly assraped by JBL on the way out the door. So yeah, there is a double standard. And some people blame the "bimbos" themselves for not having talent, when the issue more often than not is that they're not given enough time to train properly and end up injuring themselves and others pretty easily. Ashley was put in the ring with absolute minimal training, and her injury is a result of not physically knowing how to do everything yet. That's an irresponsibility on the part of the company, not on Ashley's part. It's also a disrespect to the people doing programs with her, because they are being put in physical danger.

And why someone like Randy Orton, who can get pretty much any woman he wants, would have such a problem with women in general is beyond me.

In St. Louis and in Japan, yes, probably. Everywhere else? Probably not.

I know there has to be someone you root for, but who says every single fan has to root for the same person? I think there's more money to be made in playing up both sides of every story huge. There are rudo fans in Mexico. There are plenty of fans who cheer for heels in Japan. It doesn't really change anything, it just means that each group has their own sector of fans. Instead of trying to force feed the fans into liking and disliking who the company wants them to like and dislike, why not just present the characters a little more naturally and let the individuals make their decisions? I'm not saying it's a great idea, I'm saying it's one worth talking about and weighing the pros and cons of, though.

Re: pushing green guys Two of the top candidates of the past few years have been Chris Jericho and Eddy Guerrero, and they are no longer options. Benoit isn't really the type to build an entire company around, Booker T is revitalized but not really in a main event heel kind of way and you're left with Edge, RVD and Misterio, who all have their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. That's it. I think sometimes, the company has to take risks and be willing to fail. Some things aren't going to work, but they have to try them. It's why pushing guys like Orton and Carlito isn't the worst thing in the world. I think some people want WWE to be cautious, to a point where it would be a flaw, in who they select to push. Sometimes, they just have to shoot for the moon and see what happens. And not everything they try is going to work. That's just how it is, and I'd like to think they're aware of that. This honestly isn't intended to be an apologist post, because WWE fucks up a lot of really obvious stuff, but I can't think of any other medium that reaches the masses as a form of entertainment with that many characters that's live in primetime for two hours a week, and has two more hours of first-run TV to shoot every week as well. It's a model WWE created that crushes them in some ways, just as it is the reason they make a lot of the mistakes they make.

Yeah, but it was all under the guise of making true shades of gray characters, which they didn't really do. Austin was a true babyface with an attitude. Vince McMahon was a typical heel. Cena is much more ambiguous than Austin ever was, if only because he's being booed for being a nice guy.

It was just one match. I don't think it's fair to say "Rey is being booed" unless there is a pattern, like with Cena. But yeah, there are ways to not make this a handicap as it currently is. I'm just not quite sure what they are yet.

I agree with the sentiment, and for the most part, this is probably true, but there are exceptions to this in St. Louis, Bruiser Brody being the biggest one.

I'm still convinced this is all a work. A self-respecting gay guy would never have that hairstyle.