Loss

I've heard very high praise for Trevor. He's the first Harley Race trainee to get a shot in the big leagues, so I'm excited about seeing what he can do.

Can separate be equal? Especially when the Roadies were often a bigger drawing card than the top babyfaces of their era (Sting, Luger, Windham, Garvin)?

I would agree with that. Had Jericho gone over HHH at Fully Loaded 2000 and went on to face Rock at Summerslam in the main event and take the title, and later been revealed to be the driver who ran over Steve Austin resulting in him turning heel, he would have been a huge star and met his potential. Any footage from that time shows him to be far and away the most over non-main eventer on the roster, and they should have pushed him when they had the chance. 2001 was okay, but the magic was gone in many ways because they waited too long. They tried to elevate Kurt Angle in 2000 when that should have been Jericho's year. They tried to elevate Chris Jericho in 2001 when that should have been Rob Van Dam's year. They tried to elevate Brock Lesnar in 2002 when that should have been Booker T's year, with Brock becoming a top guy in 2003. Eddy should have been the new top guy in 2004. Had they followed that plan, losing Austin and Rock wouldn't have killed them as much as it did. Keep in mind that from September 1999-February 2000, they lost Steve Austin, the Undertaker and Mick Foley, which would have killed business even 12 months earlier, but because they had Rock ready and were pushing HHH hard, they sustained and even expanded on the base they already have. They also benefitted in 2000 by having a half dozen really hot midcard-upper midcard acts who all could have entered the main event scene at any time. It's scary to think about how many guys were climbing the ladder and getting over huge in 2000, and where they all are now because of bad booking. But in 2000, they had Rock as the top face, HHH as the top heel, Undertaker as the respected veteran, the Hardyz as the blowjob tag team with E & C as their foils and the Dudleyz there to appeal to the blood and guts hardcore crowd. Top to bottom, the card was a draw. It was also considered just a matter of when for when guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Rikishi and Kurt Angle entered main events and stayed there. When the audience realized that wasn't going to happen, they gave up on all of them. EDIT: Also, as hard as they've pushed Edge since then, I have to ask -- is he really any better off than he was teaming with Christian?

Ric Flair v Magnum TA (Mid South 1984) For future reference, this is on Barnett's Mid South Vol 3 Disc 1.

Antonio Inoki v Andre the Giant (NJPW TV 06/22/84) Two **** matches on one 60-minute TV show. Wow. This just confirms the belief I've always had that 1984 is the greatest year for wrestling ever, at least on a global level where every promotion everywhere is booming.

I think the main argument against HHH in the HOF is that he's done far more harm than good. Many people (self included) think he's directly responsible for the decline of the wrestling boom.

Hayes and Roberts are not HOFers on their own, but no one has argued that they are. It's the role of the Freebirds as a whole that got them inducted into the Hall of Fame. Hayes and Roberts as singles wrestlers haven't had HOF careers. But neither has Gordy, although he has a stronger case. While there's no way of knowing for sure what goes through the mind of the average HOF voter, I don't see anyone voting for the 'Birds taking into account Gordy's runs in AJPW main events or his tag teams with Doc and Hansen. If you're looking at the success of the 'Birds, Michael Hayes was probably the most crucial member because he was the one who generated heat for the group. He was the most charismatic. He was the best talker. He's not a HOFer alone. The Freebirds, as a unit, are HOFers. I can see the case for Roberts being a piggybacker, but some would argue that Roberts had an important role in the success of the group as well. He also had that tag team with Jerry Brown that was pretty big in the 1970s if you're looking at outside factors, which I'm not. In fact, I think Hayes had *more* to do with the success of the Freebirds than the other two did. I'd hardly call Gordy someone who piggybacked his success, but it's clear that Gordy was the best worker of the group. But if you look at the big moments that define the Freebirds era, Hayes's fingerprints are all over them. * He was the referee in the 12/25/82 cage match between Flair and Kerry that jumpstarted the Freebirds/VEs feud * He co-headlined the big stadium show in late '83 against Kerry in the Loser Leaves Town match, a show that sold out Texas Stadium. Flair/David was on top, but the Freebirds were drawing big numbers on shows *without* Flair or Harley Race around as well, and Kerry/Hayes was the major selling point of the show * He gave the group their rock and roll persona. Gordy and Roberts wouldn't have had that persona without him. It's because of Hayes that they were able to do things to make them stand out like use music in their ring entrances, which is a big, big deal today (honestly, that alone is probably enough to make them HOF-worthy considering the major impact that's had on wrestling not just nationally, but internationally and the role music has played in getting God knows how many wrestlers over the last 20-25 years over) I do agree with those who say that the Freebirds' induction leads to questions about other stables being inducted in the HOF, but the 'Birds were together in their original form for longer than the Horsemen or the NWO were. And while I don't think the Horsemen as a unit should be included because of the near-constant revolving door, I do support inducting the NWO as a unit (Hogan, Hall, Nash) into the Hall of Fame. Maybe they'll be nominated next year.

RE: active wrestlers The only thing about not including active wrestlers is that there are definite HOF guys like Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan that are still active and having matches. Does that also extend to announcers like Jim Ross that are still active? Promoters like Vince McMahon and Antonio Inoki that are still active? Regarding tag teams, I can't see the case for not including them, especially in cases like the Road Warriors where they drew big money. The problem with tag teams is that there are too many deserving tag teams that aren't in. When Meltzer made the point recently that Miguel Perez and Antonio Rocca are the biggest drawing tag team ever, it makes me wonder why they aren't in as a team. Individuals who are in like Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens should probably be inducted for their work as a team as well. I agree with the MMA comment though.

Might I also say that seeing Bobby Heenan in an AJPW ring in PERFECT video quality is perhaps the most surreal experience of my life. Does all of the old AJ footage Ginnetty is getting look this good? Sweet Jesus ...

Tim, have you seen Andre/Inoki from the 6/22/84 TV? How do you think it compares to Eddy/Show? I liked it more than Eddy/Show on first viewing just because Andre has so much more at his disposal, but I think Eddy is better against Show than Inoki is against Andre. Either way, it's close, as this is also a nice match with better submissions (from both guys) and more crowd heat. Where Eddy/Show is better is that Eddy does a *much* better job selling the size difference between himself and his opponent.

Will try to watch Destroyer/Baba before I move. I want to have at least the high points on all my DVDs watched by the end of next week. Thanks for the date. Just watched Fujinami/Adonis from the 6/22/84 NJ TV and it's another great, spirited match with some really hot nearfalls. It's paced more like a 90s heavyweight match than an 80s heavyweight match, and had this match ever happened in the WWF or WCW at any point from 1990-1999, it'd be considered one of the best in the promotion's history. Awesome crowd control and Adonis carries things in terrific fashion. Fujinami is very good, but this is Adrian's match.

Adrian Adonis v Tatsumi Fujinami (NJPW TV 06/22/84)

Jushin Liger v Dick Togo (NJPW 06/17/96)

Wow. Destroyer/Matsuda is just ... better than words. Probably the best entirely mat-based match I've ever seen, and not because the mat work is the most advanced I've seen, but because of the simple joy that Destroyer seems to have in just wrestling. Matusda was perfectly capable and great in his role as well, but Destroyer is mind-numbingly great. He doesn't do a lot, but he doesn't have to do a lot. Soon as I can find a date on this, it's going on my list, and it's a match I have no problem calling *****. Expect lots of updates in the near future since I've finished packing and going through my stuff and don't even move until next Saturday.

Two matches definitely getting added ... Stan Hansen v The Destroyer - AJPW 10/30/75 First of all, anything that has Stan Hansen sporting an 80s Hollywood starlet hairdo is going to rock! But more than that, this is such a great story of a veteran going against a guy climbing the ladder, with the youngster being lured into a false sense of security and it ending up costing him the match. This is more Destroyer than Hansen, but it's a brilliant match that's simple enough that anyone who had six months of training could pull off everything they did here. The fact that the match was so simple and was still so great is what made me love it so much. The headscissors is the big move of this match and is the centerpiece to the larger story at hand, and it works so well in establishing roles, connecting with the audience, conveying the big and small points and advancing the match. YOU MUST SEE THIS. Jushin Liger v Dick Togo - NJPW 06/17/96 Skydiving J Tournament You know, maybe it's because this match took place in 1996 that you don't hear loads of praise for it, considering that was an ungodly year for work, but this is probably my second favorite Liger match ever. If I was going to show two matches to someone to really explain what Liger is all about, it would be the Samurai match from '92 and this one. Togo makes the mistake many before him have made of thinking he can be his usual assholish self to Liger and get away with it, and Liger responds by destroying his arm. There are so many odes to previous matches here that I'm sure I missed many of them - we see Liger snap in the same way he snapped when he destroyed El Samurai back in '92, but we also see that he's grown since then, as he's far better at keeping his cool. In fact, he can go into all out assault mode and still laugh about it, as he does his share of KDX mocking while Togo is laid out outside. Second, Togo makes the same mistake Otani made on 03/17 of creating an opening and not following through on it, and you just can't do that against Liger. I also like this because Togo is a bully in Michinoku Pro and he meets his match - his superior even - when he steps outside of his universe and tries to treat the kingpin of all juniors like he would treat Masato Yakushiji or Tiger Mask IV, and finds himself in Hell as a result. There's also the importance of this in the bigger picture, as it was a bad night for KDX with Taka also losing while Liger was victorious and went on to encourage all champions to unify their titles later in the night. For the night, for the time frame, for the audience viewing it live, for the larger purpose, this is a near-perfect match that works on at least two levels.

None of the results have really surprised me on this show, but I do think they slaughtered the undercard mercilessly. And the Matt Hardy burial is pretty ridiculous.

For the sake of discussion, if you call something "insane", please offer some type of explanation for your comments. Anyway, Orton isn't bad, I just think he's been presented in the worst possible way and anyone new getting shoved down everyone's throats is going to be resented by the fanbase. That's Orton's entire problem - maybe the time away and brief depush earlier this year will do him some good in the long haul.

Knowing Dave and the people he talks to, voters probably include Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Jim Ross, Pat Patterson, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin, The Rock, Michael Hayes, Paul Heyman, Jim Cornette, Chris Benoit, Konnan, Raven, Dory Funk Jr, Terry Funk, Larry Matysik and Mike Tenay, among others. Hardly just Meltzer stooges anyway you slice it. Anyway, HHH getting in is no surprise since he got within a percentage point last year. I'm more curious about the breakdown in votes (current wrestlers, historians, retired wrestlers, etc) than anything. I'm also curious who came close to getting inducted. The only slam dunk picks that I see making it in sometime in the future without much struggle are The Rock and Rey Misterio Jr. Both are eligible in two years.

Flair is a mess in that match.