Torch Talk Library
Kevin Nash talks about telling Vince McMahon he was leaving the WWF for WCW (05-14-05)
May 14, 2005, 04:38 AM
Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 6
Originally Published: May 14, 2005
Torch Newsletter #861
Kevin Nash was one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry. In this, the sixth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about meeting Triple H for the first time, the power of The Clique, comparing salaries with other wrestlers, breaking the news to Vince McMahon that he was jumping to WCW, why he made the decision, whether he ever regrets the decision, his return to the WWF, and more.
As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including the MSG Clique farewell, the formation and success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, and much more.
Wade Keller: Talk about getting to know Triple H.
Kevin Nash: On Saturdays we'd watch the Saturday show from our hotel rooms. He was Terra Rizing (on WCW). He was me and Scott's favorite guy. So he comes to our TV. We were in, like, Worcester, Mass. and Scott said, "Did you see who was here?" I said, "No." He said , "Terra Rizing." I said, "You're sh--ing me?" So Scott was walking down the hallway step for step right behind him. Hunter stopped and Scott bumped into him. It was kind of an awkward thing because Scott was kind of f---ing with him. So then we sat there and he had his tryout match. It was halfway through it and Scott looked at me with that look that said, "F---in' this dude's money." He got hired. We went right to Vince. It was me, Scott, and Shawn (Michaels). We said is he good or what? Vince said, "Yeah, he's real good." We grabbed 'em the next road trip. The first road trip we had, he travelled with Walter ("Killer" Kowalski). He felt compelled to do that. The next road trip we told him, "You're with us." I know he was thinking, "F---, I don't know if I want to travel with (Sean) Waltman, Michaels, Hall, and Nash. I don't know if I want to travel with the Clique." I said, "You are travelling with us. We need someone who can drive us!" (laughs) We needed a designated driver who was clean and he jumped in and it was the same thing. Here was another guy who loved the business like nobody else. It was so great. It's great to watch him now. It's like, there are other guys who grew up with our psychology and our philosophy and just took it to another level.
Keller: During the same time, were Stephanie or Shane McMahon around much?
Nash: Not much at all. I'll tell you a funny story. Stephanie came to Chicago for Summerslam, I think. I knew it was Vince's daughter. I wanted to go out to the blues club. I talked to her and told her my plans. She said, "All right, I'll go with you." I took Vince's daughter out to a blues club in Chicago. Shane (McMahon) found out that I took his sister to a blues club and he came looking for me. I'm sure he went, "You've got to be sh--in' me. Nash has got my little sister." She was like 20 or 21 years old then. He walked to the blues club and came up to me with that look on him that he was about to throw a punch at me. I told him to sit down and have a beer. That was the first time I ever spent any time with Steph. At the time she was going to Boston College or something. I've always really liked her. She really has an aptitude for the business. Her biggest problem is the people around her. I don't think the people around here are best for her. Stephanie knows a great idea, she can create one, but she needs somebody - you can't have people around you who haven't drawn money. I don't think you can have somebody from the Drew Carey Show write for wrestling.
Keller: I think you have to have lived it as a fan or a wrestler to some degree to understand what it takes to sell tickets. I think one of the detriments to Stephanie is that she didn't grow up a fan who needed to be talked into buying a ticket, so she never knew first-hand what would have made her buy a wrestling ticket. She was born into the business instead.
Nash: Right. There's a huge thing to that. I'm curious with WrestleMania coming up how the Batista-Hunter match is going to come down. I'm really curious what the finish will be. I won't ask on (Shawn) Michaels vs. (Kurt) Angle. Those are the only two reasons that I will buy that pay-per-vew. There is not another thing on the card that means a sh-- to me. So, I'm wondering how Hunter's going to drop it because you know he's going to because he has to. And I'm wondering what the finish is to Shawn and Angle. I won't ask because it'll ruin the show for me. I look at what they've got and I say, "That's all they've got."
Keller: You mentioned earlier that other wrestlers were upset with The Clique. How much influence did you really have with Vince? You attended production and booking meetings. Do you ever look back and said, "Yeah, we might have abused that power," or do you look back and think that whatever influence you did have, you always had the betterment of the WWF in mind?
Nash: I know we did. We sat in a meeting and we said uncle at one point. He came to Columbus, Ohio. He came with Pat (Patterson ). They came immediately and we say, "This isn't working. We have some things we need to run down." This was when Bam Bam (Bigelow), (Ted) DiBiase, and a couple of other guys gave Vince an ultimatum: Break up the Clique or we leave. I remember sitting that night or that afternoon in a room. Hunter asked if he should stay. I said, "Dude, you need to be in the room. You're going to get the heat anyway. You might as well be in here and get the lesson with the heat." I remember Bam Bam's name coming up and everybody going, "Hey, I think he's a f---in' douche bag, but he can play on my team any day of the year." We never made it personal. If you could go, you could go. That's all we worried about. If you could go, if you could carry the ball, then you could be on the team. But if you were a piece of sh-- and you had a bad attitude and you couldn't work, then we didn't want you around.
Keller: Name a wrestler who got a bigger push who wasn't a friend of yours because of your group's influence with Vince?
Nash: I think Bam Bam got a bigger push out of that meeting. They started using him a lot more.
Keller: Is there anyone who got less of a push because of you guys.
Nash: No. Never.
Keller: From Vince's perspective, what made you guys so valuable that he risked locker room mutiny to an extent by letting you guys in a room and kind of separating you from the rest of them?
Nash: I think it was a situation where when it came down to it, Vince could probably get anybody else. Say we had 60 guys, of any of the other 55 guys, he could get them in a room and basically say, "Okay, honestly now, you're really not his friend are you?" We had five guys who took a pact that we weren't gonna ever turn against each other. There was such strength in those numbers, especially in the business at that time. We were the first guys who worked with each other who called each other up and said, "What'd you get for a payday?"
Keller: A lot of people don't realize that wrestlers have almost always kept their pay secret, and it worked out to the advantage of the promoters.
Nash: I remember when we did Survivor Series in San Antonio and Shawn Michaels stood on the apron all night and me and Scott basically worked the whole match, and we called up Shawn and asked what he got. He got 75 (thousand). We went, f---, we got 50, and he did nothing but a superkick. We called J.J. and said, "What the f--- is that?!" He said, "It must be a misunderstanding. Hold on." We got another 25 grand each. It was one of those deals where they went, "Oh, f---, these guys are talking to each other, telling each other payoffs. We have no power on these guys."
Keller: How did you end up first heariing about the opportunity to jump to WCW?
One time we were in the locker room. It was me and Scott, we were somewhere in Virginia or West Virginia. I think it was Charleston, West Virginia. Me and Scott were in the show. Scott said, "I'm not going to redo my deal with Vince. I'm not going to let it roll over." I said, "Oh, f---, that's not a good idea." He said, "All right, between me and you, I've got this, this, and this with WCW. I have a deal memo done with Barry Bloom. It's legit. It's cash money." So I said, "What! That much!" So I talked to Barry, and Barry talked to them (WCW). I said I'd be interested if they offered the same money for me. It was basically double the money.
Keller: You were making about $375 at the time and they were offering $750, right?
Nash: I made as Diesel probably $750,000 that year, but I worked 300 days. We were talking 750 for 150 days. They were basically talking double the money, first class air, rental cars paid for, hotels paid for. So basically all you had to do was show up and get your food.
Keller: And if you get injured, same money.
Nash: Right. And it went up each year - 750, 850, 950. Nobody was making 950 at that time but Hulk. He was the only guy making over a mill. The 750 offer was the WCW cap for everybody. We went in and got over like we knew we would, then we renegotiated and we were the first guys to make seven figures over five years.
Keller: Was there ever talk of Shawn Michaels jumping with you two, also?
Nash: Never. He was never, ever going to leave. To him, I'm a Yankee and I'm never leaving the Yankees. I think Taker actually changed his gimmick a little bit because he saw where the money was going. I think Taker knew that the dead guy character wasn't something he could take with him to WCW. It was the WWF's intellectual property. I'm not sure, I haven't talked to Mark (Callaway about it), but I think that's one reason why he changed his character so much.
Keller: Because it gave him negotiating leverage he wouldn't have?
Nash: It gave him the ability to go someplace else and be "Mean Mark" or whatever he had to be again. At that point, I remember Vince telling me that when you walk out of this company, Diesel dies. "You don't understand, man," I said. Then I pulled my license out and put my hand over the name and said, "Who's that? That's Diesel right there? No, it's Kevin Nash." (laughs) I tried to tell Steve (Austin) that when Steve left, when he didn't get the (rights to the) name Stone Cold. "Dude," I said, "The most important intellectual property that you have is your face. If I'm sitting in the gym and you're on a f---in' television commercial, I'll be like, ?That's Stone Cold Steve Austin.' From a Q-Factor, I know who the f--- you are. I don't need somebody to put something on the bottom that says it's Stone Cold Steve Austin. You are Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Keller: Do you ever or have you ever looked back and wondered what would have been if you had stayed?
Nash: (Deep breath, pause) To me, maybe the wrestling business wouldn't have boomed like it did. I never, ever in my life have looked back. I mean, out of high school, I got a call from Magic Johnson and he told that he was going to Michigan State and it would be a smart idea for me to go to Michigan State with him. He said we'd win a national championship. "We've have you, me, and Jay Vincent. That's all we need." I said, "No, man, I'm gonna go South." When I look back at it now, I'd be wearing an NCAA Championship ring every day of my life. But you know, you can't look back in life. You can't do it. You've got to look forward. To me, at this point in my life, I'm a 45, almost 46 year old man, and I walk across the mall and some 18 year old kid threw up a WolfPac sign and said NWO. I mean, f---in', I would never trade it for a million years. It changed the landscape of pro wrestling. I mean, I was part of a synergy that would probably never have been created. There are a lot of people who say (the Outsiders and NWO) was the greatest angle of all time. I feel blessed to be a part of it. I feel blessed to be able to throw some of my input into it. And I feel blessed to be part of the wrestling world.
Keller: How did you tell Vince McMahon that you were making that move, and was it difficult on a personal level?
Nash: Oh, God, it was like telling your dad that you were not going to his college or joining fraternity, saying instead, "I'm actually going to join a sorority." I remember where it was. It was Stockton, California. They had offered me the money. I pulled them outside and talked to him. I said, "I want to tell you this man-to-man. I laid it out to him and told him what the contract was. If you match it, I'll say in a f---n' heartbeat." He said, "I can't match that." He didn't have that kind of money then. I asked if he understood. He said we're family. "Dude," I said. "I love you, man. But my f---in' wife was seven-and-a-half months pregnant and I knew at that point I had a little boy coming into this world. I knew that I could not f---in' work 300 dates a year with a child. I knew I had to cut my workload. To me, it was God telling me something.
Keller: The time couldn't have been better.
Nash: No, it couldn't have. At the beginning especially my son was born. I think I started June 6th with them. I think - no, I know my son was born June 12th. I worked June 6th, and June 12th my son was born. I went to TV the next day and it was like just Mondays. Back then we'd show up on a portal for a show. They'd play our music, we'd show up, and we'd retreat. We did that for six or seven weeks. F--, man, I was getting a check for 50 or 60 grand or whatever it was every two weeks and I'm not even taking a bump.
Keller: And you're not worried about what the gate is to determine your paycheck.
Nash: Exactly. And I'm not wondering if they're skimming off the top. When Zane (Breslof), God rest his soul, was leaving (the WWF) and we walked into Phoenix, you know it's a 160, 170 thousand dollar house and he said it was 100. You're going what? He was leaving and taking the cash with him. There were too many intangibles (to consider turning it down). To me, guaranteed money is a no-brainer.
Keller: Did Vince feel betrayed or did he understand?
Nash: I think he felt betrayed. I think to this day he felt betrayed. I think moreso by me than anybody else. When I came back, I told him when we were at Hunter's bachelor party. I said, "I owe you." I came back and was basically hurt the two years. I felt I owed him. Yet at the same time, when I tried to come back and cut my hair for (Chris) Jericho, I basically wanted to do the Diesel thing with Jericho. I could stand behind Jericho because he was undersized and that was always going to be a problem for him as a heel. I laid it out for everybody. Then I went and did The Punisher movie and came back and they kind of sh-- on me. I said, "You know what, f--- you! I've got a bad neck. I'm going to get my neck f---in' fixed and f--- everybody." I'll get my neck fixed and the doctor will say I can't work until January 1st and my deal will be over and f--- you. I still wanted to do business. I thought Chris was a really talented guy. I thought it was something that would work. The creative team just didn't have anything for me. When I came into Orlando with like a month left in my deal and I talked to (Jim) Ross, Ross basically - they offered me a creative job. They said, "Hey, we really don't see anything for you wrestling-wise." I'm thinking, f---, as beat up as I am, I can outwork 90 percent of your f---in' crew just because I know how to work. I remember when they put me in that Hell in a Cell. Everybody was thinking I'd have a sh-- match. No, psychology still rules, you f---n' mark. I can't go out there and light myself on fire and do a huracanrana from a f---in' 40 foot balcony, but I can go out there and sell a f---in' hammer to my head. I can sell. I can get people to believe that what I'm doing is real. That's the f---in' key. Nobody believes the Chinese fire f---in' drill with all the tumblin' and all that sh--. I roll you and you roll me and roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll. Oh that's the finish, no this is the finish. Nobody f---in' buys that choreographed sh--. The closer it is to a bar fight, the more f---in' jokes Joe Schmo in the audience believes it's real. And that's just it. I've never been in a bar fight my entire life where I kicked somebody in the teeth, they went down, and punched them three times in the f---in' temple. I never thought at that point thoguht it was a good time to get on top of the bar and come off with something big. You know?
Keller: I think if you were 5-8 in a big man's business, you would do what you had to in order to stand out. The style differences have to do more with what you need to do to get over. The realistic part is important, but so is excitement.
Nash: (pause) To me people always say Nash has got six moves. I'm thinking, Larry Holmes had three. (laughs) He had a jab, a hook, and a cross. How much do you need to be effective in life. I mean, if I don't drop you with my right in a shoot, then I'm gonna follow it quickly with my left because I'm a south paw. If I don't drop you with that, the next thing coming behind that left is my elbow to your temple. And if that doesn't work, I'm going to drive a knee into your groin and if that doesn't drop you, you're a bad mother f---er. You either know how to go or don't know how to go. To me, I watch sh-- on TV. I remember when they had the La Resistance guy come down with a poodle. I said, "Oh my God, they've reverted back to the Koko B. Ware days." They're so lost that they're gonna revert back to '83. I mean, I can't watch it. It insults my intelligence.
Torch Talk Library
Kevin Nash explains the motivation behind the MSG Farewell incident (05-21-05)
May 21, 2005, 06:20 PM
Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 7
Originally Published: May 21, 2005
Torch Newsletter #862
In the following seventh installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about the infamous MSG incident with the Clique right before he left the WWF for WCW.
Wade Keller: After you gave your notice to Vince McMahon, you stuck it to him a bit by taking part in the unauthorized MSG Farewell Incident with Scott Hall. What was behind that idea and do you regret it at all?
Kevin Nash: The thing was, and you can print this, I don't give a f---, we could not smoke marijuana. Scott and I went on a European trip right before that and Scott and I said f--- it, because we're putting guys over, they're not gonna fire us, so we were smoking pot the whole time. We smoked pot on the way to the Garden. We tried to get Shawn (Michaels) to smoke pot with us. He said, "F--- you guys." (laughs) He said, "Are you trying to get me fired. No, I'm not smoking pot with you guys." Of course, me and Scott get high and we said, "You know what would be f---in' great. I'm semi-main event, you're main event, f---in', we should do a Clique deal where we all come out later on. You guys come on one side, we go on the other, and we kind of face off like the Clique is taking over the f---in' business. You guys are South, we're North." So we run this idea by Shawn. Shawn runs it by Vince. Vince said, "I don't care, whatever you guys want to do." (Gerald) Brisco pulls me aside and said, "Vince won't say it, but he's pissed." We were supposed to go out to dinner together afterward. So Brisco said, "You still work for Vince and Vince wants to talk to you. Vince doesn't know what to say to you." I said, "Gerry, it's real simple. Match the offer and I stay. I haven't signed a hard copy with WCW. Match the offer and I stay. That's as simple as that. I don't wanna leave. You guys made me."
Keller: But the matching offer would have to include the limited dates WCW was promising, not just the guaranteed big money, right?
Nash: Yeah, that's the offer. Match the whole offer. He said, "We can't do it." So we went out and did our sh--. There was one point where I told them not to have cameras down there. They still brought cameras down half way through our match. I gave Shawn a bump and stood at the door and looked at the camera guy and said, "Would you like me to walk out the f---in' door right now? Get the f--- back to the back." Because Vince told me when I told him I was leaving, he wanted me to put over Mark (Undertaker) at WrestleMania. I said, "A pleasure. I will put Mark over 100 days in a row." I have nothing but respect and love for Mark. He's a man's man. I saw him work with f---in' broken ribs in a flack vest with a face mask on and a broken orbital bone. He is a stud. He's the sh--. He said, "I want you to put Shawn over in Omaha at In Your House." I said, "Absolutely. I'll do it after his finish right in the middle." And he said, "I want you put over Warrior." I said, "Only live on Raw and if he can take one on me." He said, "Okay, never mind, I'll take the other two." I said if he can take me on Raw live, then fine, but otherwise I'm knocking him the f--- out. I was mad at the time that Hunter had to put him over at WrestleMania.
Keller; Would you have done the MSG Farewell if you knew what it was going to do Hunter in terms of him taking the heat for it?
Nash: Never. God, never. I mean, I was so pissed for a year at Shawn. Shawn had the strap. Shawn could have deflected that heat. Someone had to take the brunt of it and poor Paul did. You know what, though, it's one of those deals where, to me, God always has the last word. Hunter got all the heat and now he's probably worth 250 million dollars and he's got a beautiful wife.
Keller: And if it weren't for that incident, Hunter would have won King of the Ring maybe before he was 100 percent ready and Steve Austin would not have won King of the Ring even though he was definitely ready, but instead was being overlooked.
Nash: Yeah. I think that for WWF, the stars were so aligned right for them for so long that everything worked out. When they kicked our ass, I didn't want them to kick our ass, but at the same time I was so proud of Vince for digging in and doing what he did. Those were my boys, man. I mean, you felt like a traitor anyway. You felt like Judas. You got your 30 pieces of silver, but it was nice to see the resurrection of Christ. It's nice to be there to watch them kick your ass. It was not a bad feeling.
Keller: Was there a reaction backstage after the MSG incident? Were people's jaws dropped?
Nash: Yeah, that was back in the days of kayfabe, kayfabe. We broke that. We were the guys who basically told the world how all the tricks were done on the magic show on Fox. With me and Scott saying adios amigos, there was no heat on us. It was Shawn with the strap and given his personality, it was left to poor Paul (Hunter) who got the heat. The heat had to go somewhere. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. I think that year of him being beaten down like that made him what he is. Right now when he's in that position, there's heat with the fans that he won't drop the strap, and there's heat from the locker room. I was there. I know the heat he has for being "family" and being "office." To me, it sickens me because I know, I watch the show, and I'm biased, but he's by far the best guy on the show. He is the best piece of talent in the business right now.
Keller: It's not as if Rock and Steve Austin are on the middle of the card and he's holding them down and dominating TV time.
Nash: Right. There's Paul and there's everyone else. It's amazing that when Shawn Michaels comes back, he becomes the number one babyface. I mean, immediately. Shawn could be gone for six months, the day he comes back, he's the number one babyface. People can talk, but it is what it is. Fans want big names. It took a long time for Shawn Michaels to get over. It took a long time for Kevin Nash to get over. It's going to take a long time for Batista and for (Randy) Orton to get over. The thing is, you can't book guys wrong. You can't book a smart, cocky, mother f---er like Randy Orton as a babyface. Oh god, he was the next Rick Rude. He should have been the guy walking to the building with two hot broads and f---ing Shawn Michaels walking up to him going, "What are you doing?" And he goes, "Let me get this right, you're a Christian now, but f--in' I know in your day you had plenty of pussy. Let me have my f---in' run and I'll find Christ later on." People would be, like, "What! Michaels, kick this guy's ass!" Don't push him in a mustard suit on TV and make me think I'm gonna like him. If I'm an auto worker from Detroit, I'm gonna want to punch him in the face.
Keller: Okay, so then let me ask this. If Hunter is so smart, how did he let that ill-fated turn happen in the first place?
Nash: You know what, Paul used to tell me something a long time ago before he was office. A lot of times if your face is an inch away from a painting, people will ask, "What do you see?" You'll say, "Black." They say, "Step back 35 feet, what do you see?" You'll say, "Oh, it's the Mona Lisa." So, I mean, it happens with everybody. You get in the wrestling bubble and you're looking for somebody to take some of the f---in' load off of him. If you're walking up the mountain with a load of bricks on your back and someone says, "Hey, this mother f---er over here might be able to take some of them," you don't think very long before you give him six bricks. You just do it. You just want the load taken off of you.
Keller: But do you think it's crazy when people say Hunter is a self-preservationist looking after himself ahead of the company?
Nash: I watch this guy and go out and I've never seen in the history of the business anybody give more in the first five minutes of every match than he does. I mean, he tries as hard as he can. Why is it the only time most guys are over in the territory is when they work with him? Then they go off with somebody else and they're no longer over? I mean, he tries as hard as he can to elevate talent. I love Eddie (Guerrero) and Chris (Benoit) to death, but those guys were mid-card guys 13 years in the business in WCW. I mean, they're great and probably two of the best workers ever, but they never (main evented) anywhere else, so I don't know why they put them on pedestals on both of the shows. I thought it was great in a way because they're great workers. Eddie actually drew that Latino and urban demo they were trying to get, but I don't know if it translated to dollars and sense on the house shows because it still comes down to - and I hate to say it because I'm a big guy - being a larger than life business. That's why Batista has that. No matter what, a guy at home from the assembly line in Detroit goes, "Damn, I couldn't kick his ass. He'd knock the f--- out of me."
