Loss

I'm all about doing WWF tags next, then switching to WCW singles and WCW tags, and then maybe doing a few overall ones with the top seeds from this tournament. For example, if we do a WCW tournament next, we can take the 32 who do best in the WWE tournament and put them against the 32 who do best in the WCW tournament. If we do a WCW tournament though, we need to establish a timeline ahead of time and stick to it. I would love to stretch it back to 1985 so we can include the Crockett-era stuff, but some may not have seen enough of that sort of thing to give it its due.

Yeah, THAT philosophy will make the Cena feud work. With Rey sidetracked with Eddy, who are they going to use to build up Christian for that feud anyway? I can't think of any babyfaces aside from Booker T who can put him over in the buildup, unless he gets some wins over Cena in some tag matches or something.

Randy Savage Rock was the bigger star and Rock had the bigger impact, but Savage got so much out of Hogan and Warrior that I have to give him credit. Yeah, he was part of a well-oiled machine and was never the crucial cog in the wheel to keep it going, but Savage consistently drew when he was put in a position to draw, excelled in whatever role the company decided to have him play, and I honestly believe that had he gone with Crockett instead of Vince in 1985 for some reason, the war would have been much more competitive, although admittedly, I don't Crockett would have had a clue how to market someone like Randy Savage to his full ability to get the most out of him. He didn't even know how to do it with Ric Flair.

The Rock I almost gave this to Hogan, because with Hogan, there would be no system for guys like Rock to excel. However, Hogan fucking over Ricky Steamboat in 1987, giving the company legal and PR nightmares like crazy in 1992 and pulling a selfish stunt against Bret Hart in 1993 all hurt the product, and Rock never did a single thing to damage the product. Yeah, he could have put over Booker T in the build to Wrestlemania, but I totally understand why he didn't do that job, as Rock became much more cautious about elevating guys after HHH buried Chris Jericho. Interesting story on that, from one of the WWE writers that used to chat with me online a while back -- Rock put over Hurricane under the agreement that he would stay away from HHH. When HHH squashed him the night after 'Mania, Rock decided to play it cool in the Goldberg feud as a payback. I don't know how true that is, but that seems 100% likely.

Mick Foley If this was closer, I'd probably go with Rock honestly, but I wanted a chance to speak Foley's case. He came into the company in 1996, and suddenly the Undertaker became a good worker. That feud did wonders to transfer 'Taker out of the cartoonish era into the more mature product, keeping him relevant all the while. He gave Shawn Michaels the best title defense of 1996, and I think that match did more to put him over strong than any other match Shawn had that year, if only because Shawn didn't win the match, he survived it. He gave Austin his first, red hot feud as champion, delivering some excellent promos and basically making a fool of himself to put over the feud. He catapulted Rock to superstar status. Without him, HHH is someone who could not have carried the load as top heel in 2000. I'm not so high on the Orton feud, but Mick did so much from 1996-2000 and I think he deserves credit for it.

The Rock

The Rock

Chris Jericho I was actually going to side with the majority here and vote Rock, but reading HTQ's post really put it in perspective for me. For those who are curious what he means by the promos making you want to see matches, check out what Jericho did before the '02 Royal Rumble. I'm confident that interview had *a lot* to do with the buyrate being so high for that show. Also, check out Jericho's side-by-side comparison of himself and Shawn Michaels before Wrestlemania XIX. It was an amazing interview, and showed that when Jericho gets the chance, he can do some awesome stuff on the mic. Jericho is also the only guy who has ever been able to go both word-for-word on the mic with Rock and move-for-move in the ring, as Rock has even admitted that Jericho's promos were so good during their feud that he felt he had to elevate his game to keep up. The Rock, in 2001, told anyone who would listen that Chris Jericho was far and away the best worker the company had. I feel bad voting against Rock here, but I'm making it up by supporting him against practically everyone else anyway.

The Rock This is very close, so I wanted to explain myself. Considering I've changed my vote three times before finally typing this out, I felt it needed explanation. I tend to think Austin and Rock share the same relationship Flair and Sting shared in WCW -- Rock is the one who is put in the position to symbolize the company, Austin is The Man. One aspect of their relationship was different though -- Rock did jobs with great frequency, and Austin didn't. In some ways, that's a credit to Rock, but in some ways, I also think that's a credit to Austin, or at least it could have been had beating him -- had it ever happened cleanly -- would have meant more than beating Rock. With Austin, I still see a fairy tale ending that never happened, a situation where the guy became so paranoid toward the end of his run that it hurt the company. In Rock, I see a guy that fans were starting to tire of by 2001-2002, at least when he was programmed with another babyface, but that who could adjust accordingly. Austin's priority was making money, and there's nothing wrong with that, considering that his merchandise sales were through the roof. However, as short as it was, Rock's heel run in 2003 was actually effective. Austin's in 2001, entertaining as it was, didn't work out. Rock had better feuds with HHH and Chris Jericho than Austin, who had better feuds with Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit. Rock represented the company in a better light as champion, I do believe, because I think he's everything good about pro wrestling because he's so willing to give back. If you look at the company from after 2000, the company only tried to elevate three non-Austin/Rock/HHH/Undertaker guys until 2003. Let's look at those guys. Kurt Angle -- Rock dropped the title to him. Austin would later do the same, only to regain it later. Austin had a match with him on RAW -- while he was champ -- where he actually tossed Angle out of the ring so he could fight HHH. That's a burial. It's been said that the writers wanted Austin to get beat up by Angle for most of the match at Summerslam '01, only for him to attack the ref and get a DQ out of pure desperation. I'm not as high on that match as most, because I think Austin made Angle look weak by staying on offense so much. It's a great match nonetheless, Angle's best, but I don't know that it did anything to make Angle look good. Angle has gotten one victory over Austin -- his title win at Unforgiven. Austin has either beaten him or there's been a non-finish every single other time they've wrestled each other. Chris Jericho -- Rock dropped the title to him, and did everything right to prep him for a big run as a long-term top guy. Jericho shouldn't have had to worry about losing his spot anymore after the Rock feud, and like Goodhelmet said, that feud should have really run the gauntlet for a full year with every gimmick match under the sun -- 2/3 falls, I Quit, Hell in the Cell, etc. It was the hottest feud they had, and that's because Rock made him look his equal. Even when he did something to openly criticize Jericho, like mention that he was losing to Juvi on Nitro just a few short years ago, it always led to Rock doing a job to him in the near future to take him seriously. The "I am not a joke" promo before the '02 Royal Rumble remains Jericho's finest moment on the mic. The debut where he ran down Rock is second. Austin was never interested in doing much with Jericho, had no desire to put him over cleanly, and when he did lose to him, it was reluctant and he took out his frustrations by crapping on the match. Now, it's my understanding that Austin and Jericho get along very well on a personal level, but on a professional level, there are some obvious problems there. Brock Lesnar -- Austin walked out rather than job to him, while Rock pretty much passed the torch to him, and he'd carry the load as Smackdown's top star for most of the next two years. That Rock match was the moment in his career where he became a superstar. People forget that prior to that match, Lesnar wasn't getting over when they pushed him, and fans resented him when he went over RVD because Van Dam was the guy they wanted to see in that position. The Brock/Rock match made people forget that. Austin has probably had a bigger impact on the company, but Rock has had a *better* impact on the company. Austin paved the way for Rock to become such a star, but Rock took his ten and raised him twenty. The attitude of the attitude era, ironically enough, is what puts Rock over the hump here for me.

The Rock I would proudly support Benoit here if he wouldn't have fallen so hard after returning from his neck injury in 2002. He just hasn't been the same since. Since coming back, let's take a look at Benoit and see if he's been the best in his company at any point. 2002 I'm not a Kurt Angle fan but I would venture to say that Angle outworked him that year, carrying Edge to a fairly good series and also getting a decent match out of Big Show at Armageddon. When pressed, Benoit couldn't do the same with Show during that time period, had his best match against Angle (which wasn't that good), couldn't have a good match with Eddy that December and I think the No Mercy tag is horribly overrated. All of my favorite Smackdown Six matches don't involve him at all. If you look at others in the company, he was probably on par with Rey Misterio Jr overall, who was still adjusting to the style and hadn't become great again yet. I think Jericho was better in '02, especially for carrying Hulk Hogan to his best matches in ages and getting Kane's best career match out of him, along with carrying HHH in the WM main event *and* at HIAC, and getting a better match out of Van Dam at KOTR than Benoit got out of him at Summerslam. 2003 He was probably the best on Smackdown, and he had a good match with Angle in January that saw him hit the highest point he has since returning. I'm not a huge fan of that match, but it is mostly a good match. The match with Eddy Guerrero at Vengeance is not one I'm particularly fond of -- in fact, I think he had better TV matches with A-Train. Love the Brock Lesnar match on Smackdown in December, and Eddy didn't really return to top form until 2004, and with Angle falling hard and Lesnar inconsistent, Benoit *was* the best on SD, but he was the best by default. I think Jericho outworked him in 2003, specifically with his carry jobs of Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash and Bill Goldberg, along with my pick for company MOTY against Shawn Michaels, where if you pay attention to the match, Jericho is basically leading him by the hand all the way through it. He also had a better tag team with Christian than Benoit had with Rhyno, and both of those guys are probably comparable as workers. 2004 Eddy Guerrero and Rey Misterio Jr were both far better in the ring in 2004, and I would argue that even Chavo's best > Benoit's best in 2004. Eddy's title reign was far better than Benoit's, though it was a bit shorter, and he had far less to work with. When Eddy has a better match with JBL than Benoit has with Shawn Michaels, I think it's obvious that Benoit has slipped. 2005 So far, Eddy looks to be having the better year, and also seems to be doing much more with the opportunity he has. 2000 and 2001 there's no competition. Benoit was head and shoulders above everyone on the roster, although Austin peaked in the 6-8 months before Benoit was sidelined, and that was competitive. The reason I'm even writing all of this is because I believe so strongly in Benoit's place in WWE history. His arrival did so much to improve the quality of wrestling in the company in 2000 and 2001, as for a spell there, you could pretty much guarantee that everyone would have their best career match against Benoit. I think he made Rock better because Rock really wasn't considered a good worker until he started wrestling Benoit, which he started doing before the Ironman with HHH that has been praised. I think he was the only guy who could work with Jericho without Jericho having to dumb down his game considerably, with the possible exception of HHH. His match with Matt Hardy on RAW is when people started thinking that maybe he was the one carrying Jeff and not the other way around. He forced people to reevaluate the talent level of everyone in the company, and while Angle is overrated, I don't know that he'd even be good if not working with Austin and Benoit so much. Benoit gave Austin the match he needed to seem like he was back in top form in Nov of 2000 on RAW, with Austin doing more *wrestling* than he had in a match in years. I give Rock the edge, however, because his impact has been enormous, and once he developed into one of the top heavyweights in the company, he was consistent at that level. 2000 really saw him blossom as a performer, and 2001 saw him become in my eyes a great worker, considering that I think he was in two of the top three matches of '01 -- one with Austin and one with Chris Jericho. He was a major star even before that, and he's never had a period where he's regressed as noticably and obviously as Benoit.

There was a three-month window or so between Taboo Tuesday and the Royal Rumble where Edge was a hot heel, but when HBK beat him on RAW in that streetfight and HHH defeated him in a title match on RAW, people just sort of stopped caring anything about him. Now, he's just a heel that annoys everyone, but he's not really considered a threat. Having someone's entire character be that they can't get a fair shake title shot, only for them to get a few fair shake title shots and fail, is going to ruin them.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks. PLEASE ONLY VOTE IF YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR VOTE FROM THE PREVIOUS MATCH BETWEEN THESE TWO. THANK YOU.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks. PLEASE ONLY VOTE IF YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR VOTE FROM THE PREVIOUS MATCH BETWEEN THESE TWO. THANK YOU.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Harley Race v Jumbo Tsuruta - AJPW 08/01/82 The latter stages of this matches are really good, but the earlier stages don't really work out so well. They're just performing a bunch of moves without any real rhyme or reason, although Jumbo's bladejob is amazing and makes for some really awe-inspiring images, especially when his facial expressions are so great. They fight back and forth for the first 14 minutes of this 16 minute match, and while it's all executed fine, it's not really much of a match. Neither guy takes control for any length of time, but when they get into the nearfalls, things pick up substantially, especially when the hot finish and Race's sympathy bladejob are taken into consideration. This was a really good match once it got going, at the last 2-3 minutes are absolutely fantastic, but there wasn't really any build to get to that point. ***, 15:23

Harley Race v Ricky Steamboat - AJPW 12/07/82 Lou Thesz referees what up until now has been my personal favorite match of 1982. Race's career was in its twilight at this point, but it would be 1987 before he'd stop completely, and five years in wrestling is actually a mighty long time, if you take pretty much any wrestler into consideration and look at the progression (or regression, as the case may be) over any half-decade period. He's still got it in spades here, surprising the Hell out of me by pulling off a flying headscissors! He also puts Steamboat over strong -- the use of the headlock in the opening minutes is fantastic. They do all sorts of things to keep the match fun when typical move description may label it ordinary; we see a really cool sequence with Race trying to turn Steamboat's headlock into a pinfall with Steamboat countering that by bridging up so he can't be moved and keeping the headlock cinched in. We see Race try a backbreaker, which doesn't work, as Steamboat headscissors out and returns to a headlock. I love the determination Steamboat has to stick to his game plan, as well as the determination Harley has to reverse the momentum and come up with something that works. Steamboat switches to a front facelock, and Race is finally able to outwrestle him in that position, working over Steamboat's neck and shoulder with headbutts, a neckbreaker, a piledriver and a gorgeous butterfly suplex. He does so in a way where Steamboat is kept down, but not out -- they transition from Race in control to Steamboat's big comeback when both attempt a dropkick off the ropes at the same time. Any match where Harley Race is a high-flying bastard is all right with me. He incorporates the high-flying moves, however, without ever forgetting who he is -- you'll see him bust out a flying headscissors, but then he goes for another piledriver, which Steamboat reverses to start the final stretch, which is filled with some fantastic false finishes. Steamboat learns a valuable lesson that if you're in the ring with a veteran who has any sort of ring savvy, you don't try the same thing twice -- Steamboat nearly defeats Race with a flying bodypress the first time around, but he tries again and Race now knows to just calmly step out of the way. For veterans working against younger guys, there are probably better matches, but this should have a place as well. Ricky and Harley wrestled many times in the Mid Atlantic area in this time frame, and it's a shame we don't have an abundance of those matches in full, because they may have topped themselves; although, this was really good. ***3/4, 15:02

Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta - AJPW 10/09/81 They had a match in 1978 that I haven't seen, but this is Flair's first world title defense of note in Japan. It's two out of three falls, and features two wrestlers who would become the defining figures of their respective companies in the 1980s. Needless to say, that factor alone contributes a lot to the atmosphere here, as the crowd is very excited about this match and pops huge every time the workers goad them in that direction. The first fall sees Jumbo work a headlock most of the time with many fast-paced sequences in between to keep things interesting. Flair would work his way out, and try something different, and end right back up where he started. The character work from both is also very strong, as Flair is definitely cocky in his role, and Jumbo is perfect as the local hero. The Flair formula hadn't been established yet, although the signs are there, with the overdone begging off and being slammed off the top turnbuckle. While he comes across a bit cartoonish at times, he also comes across as a worthy champion -- it's a fine line that Flair teeters on at times, but he mostly stays on the right side. In fact, he very well may be more World champ-like and more tenacious than he usually is. Part of that can probably be attributed to the fact that being the champ was something very new and exciting for him at the time, and part of that can be attributed attributed to having a quality opponent who he doesn't have to carry -- someone who'll work with him instead of requiring Flair to set the rhythm, the pace, the offense and his opponent's comebacks. This match feels much more organic than many noteworthy Flair matches as a result. Flair takes control in the second fall, and surprisingly, he's better on offense than Jumbo was on offense in this match, although I think that was intentional -- it made sense to give the new champ a chance to get over since he'd be performing in front of this fanbase for the foreseeable future. His vertical suplex is fantastic, one of the better ones I've ever seen, and in fact, this fall is probably the best of the match. He works over Jumbo's leg to set up the figure four, incorporating most of his typical stuff, but doing it in a faster way than usual, and in context, it's all fresh stuff. The figure four gets great heat, because Flair teased it a few times before locking it in, and Jumbo sells it as well as you'd expect him to sell it. It's a quick fall, but it's very well done. The third fall has a nice touch before it, with the younger wrestlers icing Jumbo's leg down and checking him for injuries, similar to the sporting atmosphere in a boxing match. Flair goes after the leg with in even more aggressive fashion this time around and Jumbo continually hobbles back. Because of Jumbo's selling, this rivals Flair's matches with Steamboat and Windham not only in quality, but as some of the best limb work he's ever done. The ref bump stuff at the end probably could have been eliminated, but clean finishes were the exception more than the rule in this era in All Japan, and Jumbo did so much to not only have everyone in attendance believing he was going to pull off the victory, but also to put over Flair, even if he never took a pinfall to him. This was a nice start to what would be a five-year rivalry, with Flair defending the belt against Tsuruta nearly every time he toured the country with the title. ****1/4, 30:39