Loss

Then, they could drop Grateful Dead teddybears from the ceiling, create an indoor rainbow and broadcast the rest of the show in psychedelic acid-style trippage.

That's the one. They really should have gone all the way with it and had angels descend from the ceiling singing songs and spreading mysterious white dust all over the Providence Civic Center.

?????? What a horrible decision! I only say that for continuity reasons, since he's been moved to RAW twice and to Smackdown three times now.

With the feeling that WWE needs to make Smackdown the stronger show right now according to the Observer, I'm expecting them to send the guy over that they think is the greatest wrestler of all time. I predict a HIAC win before jumping with the belt, and I fear for the future of both Rey and Eddy if that's the case.

And especially considering that the Bret/DiBiase stuff in that match is some of the best work in a WWF ring that year. I actually really like that match.

Use this thread to plead the case for all your favorite tag teams. Ideally, having 64 teams would be the way to go, but if we have less, we'll narrow that down to 32 teams. Have at it. 1985-2005. All American promotions.

I'm ready to start anytime. I'm going to start a mega-nomination thread now.

I'm hoping I can get my hands on Part 7 and Part 8 soon, but for now, here's Part 9. ------------- Here is the whole interview from this week.... Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 9 Originally Published: June 4, 2005 Torch Newsletter #864 In the following ninth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about Eric Bischoff and the job pressure he faced in WCW, how he believes Bischoff feels about his run in WCW in retrospect and how he handles being part of WWE today, how Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara were sabotaged from the beginning when they arrived in WCW, his admiration for the pressure Vince McMahon is under and the work ethic he puts forth year after year, how important he believes size is in terms of wrestlers' drawing power, his coining the term Vanilla Midgets, and why he'd promote Rey Mysterio as a World Champion in WWE if he had the power right now. Wade Keller: Do you think in Eric Bischoff's mind that his accomplishments currently outweigh the sense of defeat, or do you think he is haunted and always will be by his sense of defeat no matter what he accomplished? Kevin Nash: I think he's haunted by his defeat. I don't think he realizes what he's done. To a degree, I think, when he got to New York (WWE) and became a part of New York and saw the f---in' machine - if you've ever been to the log cabin, the place in Smyrna that was WCW headquarters - you'd walk in there and you couldn't find an IQ above 30. Not to be sh--y, but it wasn't like you had a marketing department. You had a guy who studied marketing in high school (laughs). Keller: So Eric might have felt better about things once he saw first-hand what he had gone up against? Nash: I think once he got to New York and realized the machine he actually beat, I think that helped. Keller: Eric puts up a brave front during interviews. He has his three reasons or whatever for why WCW went out of business and why it wasn't his fault or in his control, and he talks about what he did accomplish. He says things to indicate to an average person listening that he's at peace with himself. But deep down there must be a feeling of lost opportunity, right? Nash: I know that once he came there and saw what he was against, he went "Wow!" Keller: Do you think he's content in the role he's in now? Or does it hurt him to have once been in control and now just be a talent who isn't even consulted? Nash: Knowing him the way I know him, he's happy doing his own thing, riding his bike. I'm sure that he liked the ride, but he likes his family times, too. I'm sure he enjoys being able to perform, do what's expected of him, and be off for five days. Keller: Was there ever a point where you lost respect for Eric seeing how he handled the pressure? Nash: Never. Keller: Were there times you ever wanted to grab him and shake him? Nash: No, because there were so many snipers. It was like trying to go to the grocery store in Bosnia in '93. I mean, there were so many snipers It was paranoia, but it was warranted. Everybody was out to kill him. Keller: If there was no recreational drug use at all among anybody in WCW during the best year or two period, do you think things would have been better off in that things would have lasted longer? In certain pockets and certain areas, did drug use contribute to the spin out of control? Nash: If it wouldn't have been for the recreational drug use, the thing probably would have collapsed after three weeks (laughs). I mean, it was sex, drugs, and rock and roll. That's part of what made it what it was. There was a reckless abandon, showing up on Monday TV with one match done at 7 o'clock and people going, "Oh, f---, we're live in an hour!" Keller: And two hundred wrestlers flown in and you're going to use 14. Nash: It was crazy. The thing was, of those 200 wrestlers who got called in, and the 14 that were used, all of them were at the Marriott bar that night (laughs). It was a party. It was what it was. It was like when I worked at the Cheetah. It was like working a strip joint. I can't wait to get this three hour show over so we can go to the party. Keller: Like any good drug trip, you're going to have the high and then the inevitable crash. Do you think there was an element of crashing from living that lifestyle? Nash: I think so. How long could a rock tour last? After about two years, by that time it's "Behind the Music" and everybody hates everybody. And that's what happened. It was kind of the whole deal like "Behind the Music." Keller: Do you think Eric handled the pressure of the job well all of the time? Nash: I thought so. Keller: Even when he was throwing coffee at Eddie (Guerrero)? Nash: Eric's a hot-head. Eric's the kind of guy who will call you a mother f---er and Eric will say, "You're a prick and I want to kill you," and then that night he'll drink a beer with you and he's over it. I like that. I like somebody who wears their emotions on their sleeve and can get it out and at the same time, can three hours later say, "You know what, f---, I was kind of a dick to you, sorry." At the same time, if he goes off on you and you were wrong, he doesn't apologize, he'll stay on you. Then you should apologize and say you were wrong. That was a high pressure position Eric was in, though. It's understandable that he went off at times. One thing I've always said that amazes me is I know that I'm responsible in my life for probably 20 people at various times, while Vince is responsible for probably 400 people's lives - and that's on a day in, day out basis. When you get older and you get more mature and you sit back and look at it, I said to myself, I don't understand how the man does it. I don't understand how he puts in the 16 hours. I don't understand how he has the drive that he does on a day in and day out basis to make that many people's lives. He's responsible for a large number of people's well-being. Keller: Is that a big weight on Vince's shoulders, or is that just who he is? Nash: You know what, people say they let this guy go and that guy go and that guy go. They talk about the cuts at WWE. They think that doesn't go through Vince. Vince doesn't hire anybody that he doesn't have somewhat of a relationship with. So everybody who gets cut, Vince has had a relationship with at some point. Vince is the captain of the team, so it's just like somebody from the team got let go. I know how personally Vince takes that. He takes that as defeat. Financially that means the company wasn't doing well enough to keep those people on. God, that kind of pressure on a day in, day out basis, f---, it's another one of those things that increases your respect for what you have for the man. He is such The Man. He is The Man. He is able to handle that kind of responsibility and that much stress. Keller: What's the one aspect about him that if it were changed, it would make his life better. False pride? Not being good at taking criticism? Taking too much criticism? Having too many yes men around him? What's something about him that might slow down or hinder his success? Nash: The thing about the yes-men is that when we were there as the Clique and we talked to Vince, he was always wide open for ideas. If somebody comes up to you and all they ever say is how pretty you are or how handsome you are, if that's all they ever say, that's who that person is. Keller: There are people who are scared to make too many suggestions outside of Vince's vision because Vince does have a certain road he drives on, and he wants you to make that drive smooth. Nash: Yes. But I've never been around Vince and seen him where he fired somebody for that. (Vince) Russo bumped heads with him. Russo said, "No, that's not the way, Vince." I mean, Russo will say he basically booked everything. I know better. Russo gave him an idea and Vince took it and made it his. Russo's got a strong personality. Vince (McMahon) is Vince, and there's no coincidence that they're both named Vince. That's how the play's supposed to play out Shakespearean-wise. Those guys, they had a synergy that was f---in' beautiful, from the placing of the Sable spot with the spike, they knew how to do it. Wrestling was doing an 11 back then. Monday Night Football was thinking of going on Thursdays (laughs). I mean, you think back about that and you go, I don't care what you say, if you were part of that machine at that time, you have been successful in life. Keller: How much was Ed Ferrara in that mix? Nash: Ed's great! Ed always gave the comedy aspect. Keller: There was a synergy with Russo and Ferrara working together where they filled in each other's weaknessees and each had different strengths. Nash: Absolutely. That was a great group. They brought them to WCW, but they came in there and then J.J. (Dillon) and all those guys started chopping their heads off the minute they came in. That old-school mentality kicked in. They immediately separated me from the booking team so they could chop their heads off. Keller: Do you think that Russo and Ferrara got a fair chance in WCW, or do you think there were some weaknesses that were exposed in WCW that were exposed outside of Vince McMahon's leadership? Nash: Oh, God, not a chance. They were in the back of the car at Daily Plaza when they walked through the door. The plan was in motion to be sure they did not succeed. They were brought in on a whim and they were never given a chance; right away they were shot down. The old school Florida booking team went to work on them. Keller: Do you think Russo and Ferrara could have been successful in WCW without Vince McMahon as part of that equation to keep their blob of ideas going in a certain direction? Nash: I think no. I think the thing that made them successful is a lot of the times they go too far out, and Vince (McMahon) always had the capability to say (imitating Vince McMahon), "Ahh, that just doesn't make sense. That's bullsh--." It isn't like Vince hasn't drawn money. That's the one thing about Vince. He's been there before, so he knows. He can see when something's not going to draw money. Keller: It probably makes a difference for Russo and Ferrara when they're writing to please Vince McMahon versus "I want to establish my own identity as a writer." When you're writing to please Vince, you're to a certain extent within a formula that has worked for years. When you become an artist writing for your own vision without McMahon to rein you in, you're going to make mistakes. Nash: Absolutely. Absolutely. Keller: Did you coin the term Vanilla Midgets? Nash: (pause) I may have. (laughs) Keller: When you used that term in reference to Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, and other smaller wrestlers, what was the context of that? Any regrets? Nash: It was one of those deals where I loved what they did, but at the same time, it's like watching a porno with a guy with a four inch c--k. It doesn't matter how he moves. I'm a big guy, I want to watch big guys wrestle. That's just me. I didn't appreciate what they did, but at the same time when I took over the book and Eric told me, "I'm paying these guys 500, 600 thousand dollars a year, you have to get them over," I said, "F---, because you did bad deals with people, don't expect me to get people over. F---, it's going to be hard. When a guy looks like your neighborhood gardener on the gas, it's tough. If a five-foot-seven guy walks through the airport, it's not gonna be... I'm very surprised Vince (McMahon) did that (signed and pushed them). Vince was never that guy. Vince was always, like, "When he walks through the airport, he's got to turn heads." He wanted that bigger than life guy. Keller: Yet you respect Rey Mysterio and what he contributed to Nitro. Nash: That was a different thing. To me, right now, if I was booking New York, Rey would be my champion. Keller: And it might happen. Nash: It should! Benoit is probably, to me, as good a worker, and so is Eddie, but they don't have that - if I'm sitting at home - me and Scott (Hall) used to always say to be over in this business, the girl's got to want to f--- you and the guy's got to wanna be ya'. Girls don't wanna f--- Benoit. Girls I don't think wanna f - -- Eddie. Girls wanna f--- Rey, guys want to be Rey. That's what gets over in this business. Guys want to f---in ' be Batista? F--- yeah. Do girls want to f--- Batista? Yeah. Do guys want to be Orton? Yeah. Do girls want to f--- Orton? Yeah. There's a real intangible in this business and that's it. Keller: And there are big guys, 6-5, 6-8, with muscles and a good look who don't fit that description that Rey does. Nash: Right. Keller: So the formula, as much a size is and always has been and always will be a factor, it's the be all, end all. Nash: It is not. Because you have to have "it." Michaels has it. Girls want to f--- him, guys want to be him. He's a 6-1, 219 pound champion in world of 300 pounders. The thing is, his physical attributes, his work was so far above - but he was still 6-1, 219. I mean, you're a strong safety in the NFL. I mean, you're not a small guy. Rey is, like, an exception to the rule. But I watched Rey work and I put Rey over because I wanted everybody in the locker room to know, guess what guys, everybody does jobs here. The biggest guy is putting the smallest guy over because guess what, he has enough offense to do it. And I'll tell you what, we blew the roof off that place that night in Sacramento. The only thing in retrospect I should have done is I should have been the last one he got to. I should have had him be the giant killer the opposite way - have him beat three or four of the bigger guys - (Scott) Norton types - and then go to a PPV and beat me. That was the mistake I made because I had no idea how over he really was. New York can learn by that. My mistake was I didn't realize how over the guy could be. Next week, he talks about the lack of fresh talent being rotated into WCW at a time when the WWF was creating new stars during the Monday Night War.

I definitely agree that Angle is overhyped. The guy had the potential to be one of the greatest wrestlers ever based on his background, but I don't know that he's successfully parlayed that into a great career. He was often praised for being so good so early in 2001, but that was two years into his career, and I can think of people like Jun Akiyama, Chris Benoit, Jushin Liger, Barry Windham and Bobby Eaton that were better that early on. I do agree that his ripping off of the style of those around him is incredibly annoying, and I don't even think he's the best at the WWE style of wrestling. Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio Jr and Chris Benoit are better all-around performers, even though all of them have seen better days. Looking at his career year by year 1999 - He didn't do anything remarkable that year. The best workers in the company in 1999 were Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, Chris Jericho and X-Pac. None of them exactly had banner years either, but they were all at a level above Angle. 2000 - He was carried to some fairly good matches that year, but he was outshined easily by Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho and Eddy Guerrero. 2001 - This was probably his best year, and Steve Austin, Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho were all better that year. In fact, if anyone is comparable as a worker to Angle, it's Jericho, and Jericho does the small things better than Angle. 2002 - This was a good year for Angle, and this is the closest he ever came to being the best in the company. That said, when Rock was around, he outshined him, and Jericho was far more consistent. You also had Eddy Guerrero coming back and working hard, and Booker T and Goldust were also better than he was overall. 2003 - This wasn't a good year for Angle at all, and I'd argue that Jericho, Michaels, Rey, Knoble, Eddy and Benoit were all at a higher level than he was. 2004 - Bad year for Angle. He had the match with Guerrero at Wrestlemania that was really nice I thought, but what else did he have? Rey and Eddy were his best opponents, although 2004 was probably the only year he trumped Jericho in the ring, which I attribute to booking as much as anything. 2005 - The jury is still out. Hardly a HOF career, especially when the guy hasn't drawn big money and he's expected to go in based on work.

Aye

Part 2 ...

The site I mentioned in the topic description no longer exists, but there were some really good historical articles posted on another board recently that were saved, so I wanted to cross post them here. The first one is on ECW.

I'd love to include Japanese teams personally, but there are probably arguments good and bad there.

I love you, Marty.

Anyone else remember when WWF.com asked for suggestions in 1999 to name the Owen/Jarrett tag team because they couldn't figure out a good name for them?

Yes, the finish was done on the fly. In his shoot interview, Sid's only comment on the powerbomb was that it sure looked great on TV.

It was Rick McGraw, who not only was a jobber for Vince, but in other territories as well. He did a stretcher job to Roddy Piper in his last match and ended up dying a few days before the match was to air, and it aired anyway.

Benoit's selling is still awesome, and he still does some big high-risk moves, maybe more than he did at his peak even, and he's still intense. My problems with him is that he wrestles every match the same way lately, regardless of his opponent, whereas someone like Eddy Guerrero can adjust his style to fit his opponent, and does so on a regular basis. Benoit at this point would approach Rey Misterio and HHH the same way, and he's become more reliant on a formula full of German suplexes and the crossface than he should be. Outside of that, and the diving headbutt, there's just not much deviance in his style anymore.