Loss

Best matches: Austin v Kane - RAW night after KOTR Jericho v Kane - 09/30/02 RAW leading into No Mercy Benoit v Kane - 07/04 RAW Benoit and Kane feuded when Benoit was champ. They had a match on PPV and a rematch on RAW a couple of weeks later. The rematch was better.

If I had them, I would. They all had better outings on TV than PPV, which was part of the problem.

ECW was the right thing at the right time, but I'm not sure it would work today. I agree that what made it work was having variety in the work, bringing over good workers who wouldn't have gotten a chance in the US before that and masking weaknesses. That said, ECW bugged me, because they didn't exactly use Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Jericho, Rey, Juvi or Psicosis any better than WCW did. WCW was often criticized for just throwing wrestlers out there without any reason for them to be wrestling, but did Rey have a storyline in the company at all before he started teaming with 911? Jericho won the TV title, but lost almost every other match he had, and he had to take a background role to guys like Shane Douglas who absolutely sucked. Eddy and Dean may have been given nice ovations from the ECW crowds for doing something unique for the time, but they weren't ever going to get that chance against anyone else. And why didn't Heyman ever put the title on Benoit? Why was the focus always on guys like Sandman, New Jack, Balls Mahoney and Tommy Dreamer, guys who weren't really much of anything, and one of which who shouldn't even be able to get any type of job in wrestling in the first place? Away from that, the problem with ECW was simple. They started as a 90s indy just like any other 90s indy with Southern-style booking with more emphasis on brawling than wrestling, with Eddie Gilbert and Kevin Sullivan both influencing the booking at various points. When Douglas threw the NWA title down after winning the tournament, that was fine, and getting more edgy with the adult-themed storylines was a great way to shake things up, but my problem with ECW is that they catered to the lowest common denominator. I seriously doubt if 90% of their fanbase had an Observer subscription or knew a lot of the backstage stuff. They were constantly reminded that what they were seeing was fake. Austin would do a promo about being told to get seven minutes out of Bagwell, or having ideas to push himself up the card that weren't being used in WCW. Brian Pillman would make fun of smart marks and show up unannounced. It's like they were trying to get as many RSPW idiots as they could find who knew wrestling was fake, and because of that one simple thing, thought they knew all the answers. The truth is that the average fan knows wrestling is fake as well, but ECW fans thought they were somehow special for stumbling onto what John Stossel figured out a decade earlier. I do agree that ECW and ROH have been a reaction to what the big two were doing at the time, but they also played a major part in shattering kayfabe, to a point where it's nearly impossible to get the crowd to buy into a major angle now without crossing the lines of good taste. In that case, you're right that they only had themselves to blame. When you put two babyfaces against each other, one of them is inevitably going to get booed, and the buildup to the X-7 match portrayed Rock as an asshole, and he was also repeatedly laid out by Austin. It wasn't going to work. That's why if Austin wanted to truly get over in his heel role in 2001, he should have put on a suit, apologized to Vince McMahon for being so ungrateful all these years and made a vow to stop drinking. Instead, he was the same guy, just more paranoid, and he was so funny and entertaining that you couldn't help but like him anyway. It also didn't help that they'd stack the odds against him like they did having Benoit and Jericho gang up on him in May/June. That was a case of bad booking causing a surprising fan reaction, and them trying to shift the blame to unruly fans for what they ultimately created. WCW never had a severe problem with this until the NWO started. It's a catch-22 there, because the NWO wouldn't have been nearly as successful had they not played it cool so much, but by playing it cool so often, especially Hall and Nash, it made it impossible for babyfaces to get heat against them. Hogan was the only true heel of the group and without him, it wouldn't have worked for that reason. Before 1996, WCW had smaller, more loud and involved crowds that reacted appropriately to just about everything in the ring, most of the time. It took WCW pulling off some ridiculous angle to get the crowd to get quiet or get undesired reactions. It was always a problem in Philly, because the fans there have always loved to cheer heels, so in Philly, blame the fans for trying to be too cool for the room. There were always fans who cheered Flair because he had carved such a legacy for himself, but it never caused his opponent to get booed. That's when the problems start -- not when a heel gets cheered, but when a face gets booed by proxy. That happened to the Midnight Express's opponents at times in the late 80s, and it wasn't because the Midnights were playing up those cheers. In that case, blame the fans. The crowd is usually quiet early on and warms up toward the end. The typical Japanese match has as much heat by the end as any American match, if not more. The roles are a little different there, in that the heels are more subtle, but the audience usually catches on and responds to everything accordingly. I can accept that as part of their culture just because those are their paradigms, and promoters in Japan have made the product work within those norms. That's also more of an All Japan/New Japan thing, as groups like Michinoku Pro, FMW and AJW usually don't face that. According to Dave Meltzer, that was planned by the company, although it was intended to come off as unplanned. It's my understanding that they had plants in the crowd. Eddy/Edge, the no DQ match from Smackdown a few months earlier, however, saw Eddy, the heel, get a standing ovation afterward despite Edge being the winner and the babyface. I don't see a problem with this, because the fans are cheering the effort, and they wait until the match is over to do so. Agreed. Fans do buy tickets and should be allowed to do whatever they want, but I can still say that the way they react sometimes isn't appropriate. The examples you named don't really fit the bill, and the whole "You Screwed Matt" thing is exactly why it was a bad idea to fire him after the whole thing had been made so public, but it's exactly why WWE did, because it gave control back to the fans and the company could no longer manipulate the reactions to Lita. That's true, but in Hogan/Warrior at Wrestlemania VI, a babyface match, everything is cheered, not applauded. Applause during a match is basically saying to a wrestler, "I'm not buying anything you're doing for shit, but thanks for trying." Talk about a backhanded compliment. Wouldn't that make it easier? They could add lots of promos on the DVDs. For all I know, they already are. I think ROH has gotten better about this now from what I hear, but the stuff I've watched so far hasn't impressed me, but I blame ROH for that, just because of the ridiculous commentary about "stiff moves" and "match of the year candidates". From what I understand, one of the announcers said on a tape last year, "Ricky Steamboat even got a good match out of Mr. Fuji!" What kind of wink wink nudge nudge bullshit is that? Exhibitions are boring to me. If you can't relate to the story being told in the ring in one way or another, then it's just a bunch of moves, and if that was all I cared about, I'd watch gymnastics. The smarky crowd bothers me more, just because they insist on putting themselves over, and that's annoying. Totally the conflict. All the way. There needs to be a reason why things are happening, even if it's as simple as one guy wanting to beat another guy to prove himself. It doesn't have to be elaborate at all, but there needs to be some type of conflict; otherwise, you don't have a wrestling match. I can enjoy the occasional fun spotfest like those, but a card full of them would leave me numb. Damian/Naniwa was total comedy that the audience got, which worked because they were familiar with the other competitors and it was self-contained. Rey/Psicosis is a spotfest, but it's a spotfest that doesn't let up. I don't have a problem with those, as long as it's clear who the face is and who the heel is. The size difference alone, along with Psi's attitude, made it obvious Rey was the face fighting from underneath. I think that's what wrestling is all about myself -- regardless of if you believe it's real or not, you get so wrapped up in it that you lose yourself in the story. It's the same thing as watching a movie where the villain pisses you off or that makes you cry because the story is touching. I don't feel bad for those people; I embrace them for putting themselves out there like that. They're fans, and they love wrestling. I do too, what do you know. Basically, sometimes it's in the hands of the wrestlers when the crowd reaction isn't what it could be and sometimes, the crowd is to blame. If the wrestlers are doing everything right but the crowd just isn't taking to it, I'm not going to blame them, but if the wrestlers are totally ignoring the fact that people are watching the match, then I'm going to have a problem with that.

I'd expect the show to get a good buyrate, but it's probably not going to be at the level they hoped, and Hogan will get upset over his payoff and the whole riff will repeat itself.

They were doing some good things in the promotion at the time -- they had just turned the Midnight Express heel again; Flair/Sting was getting a nice, long buildup with Luger and J-Tex waiting in the wings and Cactus Jack debuted. It was a fun time, but sadly, it would mostly come crashing down just a few months later. Rick & Scott Steiner v Samoan Swat Team - NWA Main Event 12/10/89 I thought I might catch a surprisingly good match here, since you never knew what you were going to get with the SST, but this really stops before it fully gets going, with some clumsy wrestling eventually leading to a quick DQ. Scott plays face in peril, but he doesn't do it long enough for it to mean anything, and the best part of this match is probably the feeling out process, even if it goes on longer than it should. We see glimpses of some of the great Steiners spots like Rick's release belly-to-back suplex and Scott's Frankensteiner, and the face/heel line in the sand is clearly drawn, but it's not long enough to amount to anything, and there's not a satisfying conclusion. Rick & Scott Steiner v Cactus Jack & Rick Fargo - NWA Saturday Night 12/16/89 This is Mick Foley's national television debut! The storyline was that he'd have a different partner every week, usually a jobber, who would be on the losing end of the deciding fall, and he would snap and destroy his partner after the match. That's what happens here, at least after they get going and Rick decides to stiff the fuck out of Jack early on for no real reason. It wasn't because he was executing a move or even adding to the match, it was just to be an ass, and it had no place in what was supposed to be a jobber squash. It's interesting to see Scott doing a middle rope Angle slam, in 1989, which Jim Ross refers to as a Wolverine slam, interestingly enough. Mick sums this up better than I can in Have A Nice Day, but it's not really obvious from watching that he's hyperventilating, even though he said he was. Arn Anderson v Mike Rotunda - NWA Power Hour 12/22/89 If this match shows us anything, it's that if you work smart enough, you can get by without doing anything overly exciting and still produce a good match. That's what they show here, as Rotunda is wrestling like he's the bastard offspring of Larry Zbyszko with all the stalling, but he doesn't take it so far that it makes the match boring, and Arn plays off of it well. All the hair and tights-pulling accusations are fun enough, and Rotunda ends up taking control with his typical work -- the rope-hugging abdominal stretch, some great uppercuts and some decent mat work. The middle part of the match sees Mike work over Arn's neck by dropping him neck-first on the guardrail outside, getting in a swinging neckbreaker and repeatedly going back to the well with the reverse chinlock. Arn tries to come back several times, but every time he does, Rotunda cuts him off with a thumb to the eye. They do some really fun nearfalls toward the end with Rotunda kicking out of a spinebuster, Arn kicking out of a schoolboy while Mike pulls his tights, Rotunda falling on top of Arn when he attempts a vertical suplex and finally, a quick inside cradle does the job. Arn is a far better heel than face, and I think this match would have been much better actually had the roles been reversed, but it's still quite good. What the match lacked was more aggression and something outstanding to put it over the top. *** Midnight Express v Bobby & Jackie Fulton - NWA Saturday Night 12/23/89 The Midnights are heels again, but you wouldn't know it from this crowd. Cornette, to his credit, does everything he can to try to turn the fans against them, but none of it quite works, even if it does on a smaller scale. The Midnights start off strong on the Fultons, but they quickly fight back and clear the ring, which enrages Cornette at ringside to a point where he wants to come in and _box_ both of them, but Eaton and Lane talk him out of it. The Midnights were great for stuff like this. No one can sell a punch like Bobby Eaton either, as both Fultons' punches leave Bobby staggering, and they finally calm things down and work over Eaton's arm. Of course, no one can throw a punch like Bobby Eaton either, as we'd later find out. The crowd is still booing, and Cornette is yelling at them all and calling them rednecks, but to no avail. The use of blind tags here is really fun, with the faces doing lots of that and catching both Eaton and Lane off guard several times. Lane gets in some great kicks in terms of variety, and Bobby acts as the face in peril, with Eaton getting in two great backbreakers and Cornette sneaking in a tennis racket shot behind the ref. They cut off the hot tag, but Bobby Fulton rallies back with an octopus~!, but gets clotheslined behind the ref's back. Fulton fights back more with a facebuster and a hot tag, and man, can Jackie Fulton throw a great dropkick and even a leg lariat! All four end up in the ring soon enough before Jackie falls victim to a double guzzle. This match was incredibly fun, and they did all of this in 8 minutes! Sting v Lex Luger - NWA Saturday Night 12/23/89 Characterization goes a long way in filling a void, as we'd see here. Luger has almost no interesting moves, but he plays the crowd so well by yelling at them, begging off from his opponent and sneaking in cheating tactics when he can that it's not as noticeable as it normally would be. And while Lex doesn't have much offense, he apparently decided he wanted to be Terry Funk before this match and decides to do Terry's trademark drunken selling, which is highly entertaining. They work some good nearfalls toward the end with Sting coming back strong after Luger is in control, but Luger ends up holding up a chair when Sting tries the Stinger splash, which both draws a DQ and prompts a big brawl with all the top stars in the promotion running in. While Lex was never a great worker and Sting was at his best when working with a heel who could carry him, it's easy to see why they were the hottest young stars in the company at this time. Doom & Dan Spivey v Norman the Lunatic, Rick & Scott Steiner - NWA Worldwide 12/23/89 It was so obvious Doom was Ron Simmons and Butch Reed, even when they were masked. I remember seeing them at a TV taping that October in what was their debut and knowing right off the bat who they were, and I was only nine years old. This match is fun, if only because Norman is face in peril, and he's surprisingly good at that role, and he provides all sorts of great comedy spots. Ron Simmons has so much natural aggression and is so fun to watch, and Butch Reed was past his peak but still a good worker at this time as well. The Steiners are really only in at the beginning and the end, but they're fun when they're around. Norman doing a Stone Cold Stunner in 1989 is a funny moment as well in retrospect, but not long after the hot tag, Teddy Long interferes for the DQ. This was fun while it lasted, but it could have been even better with a clean finish, and surely one of them could have laid down for another one of them. Brian Pillman v Cactus Jack - NWA Worldwide 12/30/89 These two made for a pretty good matchup with each other, although they probably needed more time. They did go all out for the 8 minutes they were in, but they were just getting started when it came time for the match to be over. Watching Pillman apply armbars from different positions while Terry Funk is on commentary explaining the difference in the armbar in different positions is awesome, as he explains it all without even having to think about it. Cactus misses a corner splash and goes sailing shoulder first into the ringpost, but sadly, it's not sold and it doesn't lead to Pillman going back to work on his arm. Since this is a Mick Foley match, it wouldn't be quite right without at least one crazy bump, which happens when Pillman reverses a battery ram attempt into the ringpost by giving Jack a belly-to-back suplex on the floor. They botch a few things, like Cactus' over the top rope clothesline, but Pillman is the one trying to carry things here, laying in some vicious chops and a great spinning elbow off the ropes before finishing up with a crucifix for the win. The post-match angle is great fun, as Sting is scheduled to wrestle next up against "Scrap Iron" Bill Ford, but Cactus destroys him in frustration over losing and refuses to leave the ring. Sting destroys Cactus as a result, and Cactus takes another great bump on the floor before bailing. Entertaining stuff, but not exactly good. Ric Flair v Eddie Gilbert - NWA Worldwide 01/06/90 It's not that Flair is doing anything wrong here, but he's not really doing all that awe-inspiring either, as he sells properly as a babyface, but he's much more reserved a personality and is far less fun. Eddie Gilbert is the one with the personality here, as this is supposed to be a babyface match, but Gilbert takes on the role of heel. Woman comes out to watch the match, which foreshadows Flair's upcoming heel turn and Flair keeps Gilbert in a side headlock, which Flair works exceptionally well by grinding his head as much as he can and cinching it in. Gilbert is the one stooging, though, as he begs off and celebrates small victories before they are his to celebrate, which eventually costs him the match when he thinks he has Flair pinned and basks in the moment. Gilbert working over Flair's leg and doing the figure four is nice stuff, and the sleeperhold spot is fun enough too, as it gets really great heat. The chops thrown in this match from both are absolutely brutal, and that eventually turns into a slugfest, which Gilbert actually wins before leveling Flair with a clothesline. As a short, throwaway match for Flair, this isn't half bad, but Flair's selling, typically his strongest point, is negated when he's working as a babyface.

Low Ki v AJ Styles - ROH Honor Invades Boston This match is proof that you can do all the moves in the world, but if they're not sold, they're meaningless. This makes a nice contrast to the Funk/JYD match I'm going to get to eventually that doesn't have even a fraction of the moves on display here, but because even the small things are put over huge, that match translated better. What good are Low Ki's kicks and Styles' inverted indian deathlock if they don't actually send the match anywhere? I guess they were trying to do as many moves as they could that end with the word "driver" as well, and AJ's double pump brainbuster is just stupid. Yeah, it's explained by the announcers, but come on, what's wrong with doing a vertical suplex? The submissions on display are nice, specifically the dragon sleeper, but both guys are up and running in no time. Styles does sell Ki's brutal looking Kawada kicks to the face, but I doubt he had much choice in that regard, as his eye swells up afterward. They morph into WWE mania toward the end doing not much more than repeatedly trying finishers over and over. The announcers are still going on about the "match of the year candidate" bullshit and it's distracting from what's going on in the ring, but then again, there's not really anything there worth watching.

I agree with the sentiment, but Kane has had good matches with Austin, Benoit and Jericho.

I'd take a crowd of fans who believe what they're watching is real over a crowd of uber-smarks any day. I can even accept the atmosphere as one where competition is more important than any face/heel alignments, but that said, I'd rather the audience cheer something they like than applaud it. As I said when talking about Guerrero/Malenko, matches aren't meant to get applause. Even with WWE crowds, if they're doing a quick early sequence to establish a pace, that does get scattered clapping, but it gets more of a cheering pop than anything. I have no problem believing ROH gets better from here.

Mark Briscoe v Jay Briscoe - ROH Honor Invades Boston After hearing so much about these guys for so long, both good and bad, it was a pleasure to finally be able to see them in action. I'm SO glad they wore different colors, because had they not, I don't think I would be able to tell them apart. While it's far from as good a match, this is more what I'd expect out of a brother versus brother match than Bret and Owen had at Wrestlemania 10 or Summerslam '94, just because they're not afraid to bring the hate here. The story plays itself out nicely that they know each other so well, and also that they're constantly oneupping each other. They actually ... pause occasionally ... to give the moves meaning. It works really well, especially when Mark, who's clearly the heel, gives Jay a Northern Lights suplex, and the look on Jay's face is one of surprise. To his credit, he doesn't overdo it, it's a realistic portrayal. And even though they do pause occasionally, they don't do it at the expense of the pace, as this is incredibly fast and spirited, even when Mark goes outside to catch a breather and rethink his approach, which works doubly well in having him play the heel since this specific crowd is going to reject anything that isn't action, action, action. Mark dominates most of the match, but Jay gets enough hope spots to keep it going, but not so much that it becomes a back and forth even Stephen match. Something is resolved here, both through the clean finish and the way they got there. Jay finally does come back with a flying headscissors and spinning heel kick and goes right to work on his brother's hand, which gets really good heat. Mark isn't totally beaten yet though, pulling out a springboard Ace crusher (!!) before getting overzealous and missing a top rope kneedrop. The only problem at this point is that the selling is uneven at times, with Mark selling his leg between most moves, but executing them without a problem. That's not the case once the match continues, since he tries a springboard later on and can't do it, and he also sells his knee while doing a springboard dropkick, which is nice, but he had to be reminded to go back to selling that leg, and has the acumen to put on a chinlock so he can think about what he's going to do next. After a double TKO, he hits his brother with a German suplex, followed by a Dragon suplex, followed by a Fisherman's suplex, but he misses a moonsault, which I think was excess, as that trifecta should have been enough to put Jay away and it wasn't. Jay teases another comeback with a death valley driver, which gets a great nearfall, and follows that up with a BRUTAL Michinoku driver before missing a senton bomb, which gives Mark all the opening he needs to finally execute the cutthroat driver, which he has been trying to do for the last half of the match, and he gets the win over his older brother. This, like Dragon/Donovan, is more a case of great ideas than great playing out of those ideas, but unlike Dragon/Donovan, they created an in-ring storyline to which anyone with a sibling can relate. So, that said, it's a better match than Dragon/Donovan, but based on what they both showed here, I'm not convinced they could have such a good match against anyone else, especially in singles. ***1/2

Add the following wrestlers to the mourning. Anyone who has words for any of these guys should feel free to share them. Ultimate Warrior Rob Van Dam Demolition Smash Bob Backlund Diesel Christian Sid Sgt Slaughter

Mr. Perfect (12 votes) defeated Ultimate Warrior (2 votes) Chris Jericho (13 votes) defeated Rob Van Dam (0 votes) Razor Ramon (12 votes) defeated Demolition Smash (0 votes) Owen Hart (12 votes) defeated Bob Backlund (1 vote) Marty Jannetty (10 votes) defeated Diesel (4 votes) Rey Misterio Jr (7 votes) defeated Christian (6 votes) Undertaker (14 votes) defeated Sid (0 votes) Bad News Brown (8 votes) defeated Sgt Slaughter (5 votes) Big Show (10 votes) defeated 1-2-3 Kid/X-Pac (5 votes) Ted DiBiase (15 votes) defeated Booker T (0 votes) Tito Santana (11 votes) defeated Paul Orndorff (4 votes) Honky Tonk Man (13 votes) defeated Greg Valentine (2 votes) Jake Roberts (14 votes) defeated John Bradshaw Layfield (1 vote) Kane (14 votes) defeated Taijiri (1 vote) Davey Boy Smith (15 votes) defeated Ricky Steamboat (0 votes) Brock Lesnar (13 votes) defeated Dynamite Kid (2 votes) I had this wrong before. These guys will face each other in one more round, and the winners of these matches will face the losers in Bracket #1, Round #3.

Brock Lesnar Dynamite Kid never got the spotlight Lesnar did, or it wouldn't be a contest.

Davey Boy Smith His peaks are higher than Steamboat's within the parameters of the tournament. He was also a big international draw and had a solid run.

Kane I wanted to vote Taijiri, but I think he's already gone further than expected in this tournament and it's been fun. Kane has taken everything he's been given and tried to make the most of it, and he's been given some utter shit.

Jake Roberts JBL wishes he could be as great a heel, even if he's had better matches than Jake in the last year.

Honky Tonk Man If this were extended back 10 years, Valentine would get the nod, but as it stands, HTM does because of his 14-month reign of error in 1987-1988.

Tito Santana Orndorff has the Hogan feud, and Tito may have been past his peak by this time, as the feud with Valentine was in '84, but he could usually be counted on to deliver a good match, and was having very good matches as late as 1990, specifically against Curt Hennig. He was over enough to be a featured character on Hogan's cartoon, and he and Martel had some good matches against the Hart Foundation in '87/'88. Also played a part in the 10-team match at Survivor Series '87 that I love so much.

Ted DiBiase Booker never met his full potential. DiBiase didn't either, but he made it much further, and was a hot enough heel that they were going to put the title on him in '88 until Honky freaked out. The Savage/DiBiase series of '88 is better than anything Booker has done in the company.

1-2-3 Kid This is my pick, but if you asked me in five minutes, I'd probably say Show. I'd rather see someone on the way up than the way down, which is the case for Show, but I don't know if Show ever hit Kid's peak from 1993-1996. Kid was involved in at least three of the top 10 matches of 1994, at least in the WWF, which is a major accomplishment since that was a competitive year. Also had a hell of a match with Shawn Michaels on RAW to close out '93 and did some fun stuff with Hakushi in '95.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow evening at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.