Loss

I think narratives play a huge role, but in a different way. I tend to get skeptical when they get too clean, not because I think they are untrue, but because one person says them and then they are repeated by other people who don't show their work, which makes me wonder how they formed those conclusions. I think when this happens, the phrase develops more power than the person who originally said it ever intended. Examples, all of which I've seen repeated by multiple people, and to be frank, most of which originated with Dylan, I've listed below. Again, I don't think it's a matter of Dylan doing anything wrong or encouraging it, but I've noticed that other people sometimes repeat his points. - Shawn Michaels peaked as a tag team worker in 1986 AWA - Fuyuki was better than Kawada in the 80s - Hamada was better than Tiger Mask - Ric Flair was the worst worker in the world in 2003-2004 There is nothing wrong with any of those opinions, but when multiple people start repeating them without explaining how they too came to that same conclusion, it gives me pause.

Yes. I'm still trying to think through some of the issues with it and how to make rules for it, and I need to brainstorm with other mods and admins about it. In short, I think the definition of "Pro Wrestling Only" doesn't necessarily mean what it meant in 2007. It still means "We don't need a Current Events folder". I don't think it means "Avoid topics that have potential to go outside the lines". However, I want to be clear that the folder doesn't turn into a Current Events folder and that there is a strong pro wrestling connection to every single discussion. So yes but not immediately would be the answer.

The board only focuses on what it focuses on because that's what the posters choose to talk about. I have zero stance on it as an admin, other than have fun and talk about whatever you want as long as it's wrestling-related. As a poster, I encourage people to start threads for all types of modern scene stuff. It won't get siloed off into the WWE folder. I wouldn't mind seeing general threads that are a bit more specific though, something like: - Current Lucha - Current Joshi - Current Japan indies - PWG - Southern indies Those are just a few examples. I agree that the TNA topic we have is not the best for saying good things. It was never intended to be a thread for all things TNA, but it just became one over time. Goodhelmet and I have always wanted and tried to encourage people to start threads for things they want to talk about. When I've done so myself, I've been surprised at times at how many people have something to add after I do so. You never know what people want to see or discuss. I wouldn't even mind seeing a thread on Current All Japan! Hell, even Current Chikara or Dragon Gate! In fact, the thought of those is exciting. I'll also remind people of the Match Discussion Archive, as there is quite a bit of modern discussion happening there regularly. In short, be the change you want to see.

I should say a few words about it while it's still in my mind. Styles-Reigns had some booking stuff they had to work around, but they took every opportunity afforded them. They have Reigns in a good role right now because his heel mannerisms are subtle, feel really natural and are sooo great. He knows when to dial up and down his facial expressions, and I loved the way he sold for Styles. He took a staggering bump off of that one kick that was just an awesome visual. They also did everything they could to put over the size difference at every turn. If Reigns has more title defenses like this, it's going to be a fun 5-10 years or however long they run with him. Last night shows he already has a strong grasp of how to carry himself as a champion in big matches.

That main event was outstanding, even with the overbooking. It would have been better without it, but it was still so awesome with it. I am pretty forgiving of the extra tricks, considering that it was all leading to something, and there was a rematch announced with a date by the end of the show. That's booking with purpose. I felt the same way about the finish to Cesaro-Miz -- great stuff clearly building to an eventual Cesaro title win. The show wasn't perfect, but those are two huge positives.

The responses in this thread tell me it might be worthwhile to have a folder on this board devoted entirely to the topic of wrestling criticism itself, where we can dive into the wider sociopolitical implications of how we watch wrestling, while those who prefer to keep their fingers in their ears and scream "La-la-la" can easily avoid it. Thoughts?

I would LOVE for us to be the Larry Levan of pro wrestling! And I'm all for a mixtape exchange. More than all for it, even. As soon as I repair my destroyed music library that I foolishly didn't have backed up before my laptop bit the dust.

I want to add that one reason I want to keep an open mind in this is that I have seen an impact on music criticism. Pitchfork did their top 200 tracks of the 80s recently and ranked songs by Mtume, Al B. Sure and Frankie Knuckles. It's an interesting contrast to their 500 track list less than a decade ago which was more focused on traditional college rock and indie acts during that time. I've seen more LGBT representation and racial minority presence in indie and punk culture than in the past. It's more visible, anyway. Herodes post gave me some stuff to think about with regards to wrestling. We really are on the ground floor.

It really isn't. There is no nice way to say this but people have been driven away from the reactions thread because they did not enjoy your complaining. Most of the posts -- and not just from you -- have been more about complaining about placement and harping on the weaknesses of the greats. Parv tried to start a thread about chops in the main folder, which was pretty innocent until it became a conversation about who had the best ones. The lens through which I made my ballot is not at all the lens through which I normally watch and enjoy wrestling. Sometimes it's great to watch a match without having to immediately discern how it compares to Misawa-Kawada. That's what is meant by the stakes being too high. The board will be better as people leave the mindset of GWE. There can only be one Greatest Wrestler Ever, so competition is just part of the package. But there can be endless great wrestlers, and I can't wait to table comparisons for a while, or be able to enjoy a new wrestler without having to think about how he compares to Jushin Liger. That is what is meant by high stakes.

I'm starting this thread because I just saw MiB touch on the "silent majority" phrase as a conservative dogwhistle, which outside of this project it is. I saw Dylan make a post on how social justice impacts the way we look at wrestlers, and he's also talked about the difficulties of wrestlers receiving their due that are not products of American imperialism. And funkdoc ties everything back to this for the most part. In my mind, I separate my political worldview and how we view wrestlers entirely, but I'm willing to have that challenged because it's possible I have a blind spot. I'm starting this thread just to listen to the other side and try to understand where this comes from a little more.

I think the best we can hope for is that some people step outside their comfort zones and like some of what they see. That obviously happened with this project. But yeah, if you don't see it for yourself, you don't see it and I don't see how you can rank it. I ranked some wrestlers that don't necessarily excite me but where I watch them and their greatness is obvious, but I wouldn't vote for anything I can't see for myself.

I saw a ranking based entirely on average vote on Twitter. The whole mainstream bias argument would have mostly been avoided altogether had we taken that approach to rank wrestlers. It's not drastically different from the final list, but it is a bit more diverse for people who have turned that into an issue. That said, had we taken that approach and had that been known in advance, we'd have strategic voting out the wazoo, and I don't think we had as much of that as I worried we would. I have lots to say about the original post and some of the responses and will reply with more later.

As our winner once said, Space Mountain may be the oldest ride in the park, but it still has the longest line.

I just checked it out. Too tired to really elaborate at the moment, but that was an awesome match that I'm glad I saw. 4.5-ish.

I tweeted this just now but should also say it in the thread. I apologize for laying on the Positivity Police thing a little too thick. I'm doing it about 1/10th as much as I want to, believe me. I just want this whole thing to feel like a celebration of wrestling and a project of love. But I've made that point and will stop helicoptering.

The Terry Funk case has always made a lot of sense to me, and I think it's a strong one. If you watch a show that has him on it, you're guaranteed to have gotten something worth watching. It doesn't matter the time or the place. He doesn't waste your time. Ever. And it's hard to dispute that.

Thanks to those who can state their pick without insulting the other guy. While I do think GWE would have benefitted from more direct comparisons, doing so also does unfortunately lead to people thinking this is all a zero sum game. It's a valid point that the idea of Funk as a viable headliner in late 90s WCW is preposterous, sure, but I don't see the point in making things like that the focal point. Both guys are awesome, flaws be damned.

This is a thread specifically NOT to compare the two and instead lavish both with praise without arguing who is better. Terry Funk is in so many ways the living embodiment of pro wrestling. He had global reach. He just lived and breathed the persona in a way few in history have done. Great at every aspect of wrestling and even peerless at some. Flair had an incredible run that I think is easy to take for granted. He hit a high level consistently, sometimes against great opponents and sometimes against not-so-great ones. He is in other ways synonymous with pro wrestling. He is the model world champion. Together they had one of my favorite feuds of all time, one hugely responsible for shaping me as a fan. Keep the love coming. What does Funk mean to you as a fan? What does Flair mean to you as a fan?

Both in a class by themselves. Neither trounces the other. But Flair.

Now Gary Hart is involved!

I was looking for the old Flair promo where he talked about how he had never worn cowboy boots a day in his life and hated Texas, because that seems appropriate. Couldn't find it.

Give us #3!

Part of it to me was that simply being Misawa, because of his credibility, added something to matches that Being Kawada or Being Kobashi just couldn't. If he was in a match, the stakes were higher just because he was there.

I believe he was in a program with Savage during this time, but he was out selling injuries after Savage went back heel in late '84/early '85. He was off TV for a few weeks early in the year. He did a storyline in Memphis in '85 where he promised to retire if he didn't win the NWA title. If it wasn't specifically planned, he at least lobbied for it, so maybe he toured AJ as some way to curry favor with Baba? Just speculation.

Bryan's biggest flaw as a heel was his seeming inability to get fans to dislike him. But he did have the performances.