Loss
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Everything posted by Loss
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I just realized that if Ric Flair is a potato, HHH was instant mashed -- some people were tricked into thinking it was something worthwhile, but it wasn't a real potato. It was really just water (spat from a bottle, as the case may be) and powder. Occasionally, someone like Foley could come along to put some gravy on it and make it seem okay, but at the end, there wasn't much there.
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"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad
Loss replied to Bix's topic in Megathread archive
I'm not sure how the 90s All Japan style is the best style in history. It has probably produced the most great matches, but it was also a dead end style that was unsustainable because the physical risks were too high. At a certain point, matches started going longer than they needed to go. There were too many kickouts, and too many head drops. I know there was never an argument that the style was perfect, but the style only lasted a few years (at least in a way where it wasn't excessive). The traveling NWA champ worked for close to 40 years, and the bar wasn't raised so ridiculously high that a future generation of guys couldn't pull it off. -
Yeah, great trainers aren't always great workers, and vice versa.
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While we're talking about Santo, he occasionally will stand out in a big way, but he is often content to hide in plain sight in trios matches.
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Rey is not over in spite of his size. Rey is over because of his size. Spots like that only help make that even more true.
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I was about to mention that Nikita Koloff match, shoe! It really is a hell of a carry job.
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I'm trying to think of relatively young, unsigned guys with no star potential who would be better in that role, and I'm struggling.
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I thought that was a worked shoot, but maybe not.
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Link here: (For subscribers)
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Dave had a big argument with someone at The Board recently around the idea that Hogan/Warrior delivered a disappointing buyrate, and was even outdrawn by Summerslam that year.
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It seems like it's impacting your impression of him, unless you haven't had a chance to see more of his technical work in Japan. That's part of my point. By most accounts, Terry wrestled rather like a more energetic and aggressive version of Dory when he was younger. How many matches do we even have of Terry from before he was already World Champion? I feel like this is a sidedrain. People consider Terry Funk a GOAT based on available footage. Why?
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It seems like it's impacting your impression of him, unless you haven't had a chance to see more of his technical work in Japan. To be clear, I am hoping we can discuss Terry Funk on the merits of what we can see for ourselves, not what might be out there that we will never see. It does impact my impression of him, because I don't see the case based on what's out there for him to be ranked so highly. That's not to say I don't like him at all. It's more that I see him on the level of a Dick Murdoch, a great wrestler, but not a candidate for best ever.
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I only think that would be relevant if it stopped people from ranking Funk. It doesn't.
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"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad
Loss replied to Bix's topic in Megathread archive
I'm not disputing that Bockwinkel does this effectively, but I suspect we could create a skewed sample of Flair doing the same. * Flair vs Luger - Starrcade '88 * Flair vs Windham - Worldwide 1/24/87 * Flair vs Garvin - Starrcade '87 * Flair vs Taylor - Mid South 6/1/85 * Flair vs Koko - Memphis 11/85 * Flair vs Steamboat - Night of Champions '84 * Flair vs Martel - All Japan '85 Are all of these matches going to be worked the same way? -
"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad
Loss replied to Bix's topic in Megathread archive
If you want a Ric Flair criticism, it's that a lot of his signature stuff was signature defense, not just signature offense. He's unique in that regard. Pillman had the throat-first drop on the guardrail, and Michaels had his own version of the Flair Flip off the turnbuckle, but in general, signature bumps aren't that common. Perhaps you could argue that Ric Flair -- as the first NWA World Champion to be exposed regularly through cable television -- should have understood his role in a changing industry and removed the signature bumping from his act. He was taught in a business that wasn't like that, but he reached his peak when wrestling and technology changed, and as a result, he became the most "exposed" NWA champ of all time. It was a challenge in a business that prided itself on maintaining the aura of plausibility, and if someone saw Flair do some signature bumping several months ago, his matches started to look less like matches and more like performances. Those small things have a way of eventually making people invest less in what they see, and wrestling goes from being this life-or-death sport that has an emotional hook, to a television show that strives more to be entertaining than convincing. So if you want to criticize Flair, maybe the argument is that he paved the way for an era where wrestlers don't "work" anymore, they "perform". That's a Steve Austin quote that I always thought was poignant. It's not a trend I particularly like, as wrestlers who instinctively react -- to their opponent, to fans, to unexpected obstacles -- is something I personally enjoy watching a lot more. -
"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad
Loss replied to Bix's topic in Megathread archive
It always goes back to Flair. I've made myself clear on this one in the past. I don't think he's more repetitive than anyone else at that level. I just think we've seen more of him than we have of anyone else, so his routine isn't as fresh. But all of the other GOAT candidates have their formula match they would rely on as well. Funk, Lawler, Jumbo, Fujinami, Fujiwara, Tenryu and anyone else you want to mention also has a preferred style of match. I don't see repetition as a negative. If it was a negative, there would only be one Ric Flair match in history worth watching, and there are many more than that. -
It drew a bigger buyrate.
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I would be interested in someone showing me the way here. I do think he's probably a great wrestler, but everything I've seen has struck me as him being more of a "fun" wrestler, excluding the Lawler and Jumbo matches. I mentioned the spaghetti-legged selling which I'm not a fan of. His best matches also all seem to be crazy brawls, with the Jumbo match being the one exception to that. I like brawls as much as anyone, but I'm more of a traditionalist and think a GOAT candidate should also have some all-time classic matches that don't involve blood or weapons. I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm saying I don't know what they are, aside from the Jumbo match in '76. I've never been a huge fan of his promos, mainly because he seems to stumble over his words a lot, and his grammar is really poor. He seems sincere and has great delivery, but so do the Von Erichs. Do his best matches really stack up to anyone's? Does his longevity overcome that? I'm not trying to be confrontational in how I'm approaching this topic, even though I realize I probably am coming across that way. So apologies in advance if I'm going after a sacred cow, but I'm looking to understand what it is that people love about him. In some ways, his greatness is more pre-ordained and less discussed than Flair's, as I've never seen it challenged.
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I will add that Terry Funk's spaghetti-legged selling annoys me because it's too "performed". I wouldn't mind it so much if it was an occasional spot. Manami Toyota being too noisy in the ring is another. Masa Chono's odd breathing patterns where it sounds like he's doing an imitation of a horse are distracting. Hate the Jericho/Sting/Muto facebuster spot because it looks like a lazy bulldog. Steve Austin should have dropped the Thesz press.
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I agree with the Flair criticisms. HAPPY, EVERYONE?
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On the contrary, we'll just hope he's not getting coached to be *more* expressive.
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I'm looking forward to watching it. We debated clipping to the finish, but it didn't seem right to do that for what was probably the biggest match of the year in the United States.
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[1990-08-27-WWF-Summerslam] Mr Perfect vs Kerry Von Erich
Loss replied to Loss's topic in August 1990
Last few minutes. This probably would have been an excellent match a few years earlier. I don't understand the claw-to-punch transition, but the crowd pops big for his win. The Texas Tornado is the new WWF IC champion. Heenan and Perfect do some high-quality bitching and moaning after the match. I love it! -
[1990-08-27-WWF-Summerslam] The Rockers vs Power & Glory
Loss replied to Loss's topic in August 1990
Shawn had a bad knee, so they worked this match to get around it since he really couldn't do much. Jannetty gives a really fun one-man performance, almost singlehandedly carrying this to something good. Hercules and Roma do work hard here, and Herc in particular looks like a real badass, so I don't want to call them just passengers, but Jannetty is the one who makes this memorable. Watching this, I'm surprised that the team didn't take off. -
I dig the Harley Race interview before the match. I wish he could have stuck around in WCW. He's being billed as an 8-time champ, which I think is a mistake on their part, because the New Zealand switch wasn't recognized as being official for a few more years. This is a solid match. Race takes a brutal looking bump at one point, going over the top to the floor for a clothesline and hitting the mat face first on his way down. Later, he takes a back body drop on the floor too. Zbyszko has always worked holds so well. I love the application of the front facelock, as it looks like a legitimately painful move where Larry is really cranking it in. Race had quite a bit in the tank even this late, both in terms of his bumping and offense. This match, the Rich match, and the reports of some awesome house show matches when he was subbing for injured NWA guys for a few weeks makes me wonder what could have been.