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There was very little national coverage. The Mags were just starting up, and were limited in how many people read them. People across the nation didn't see Rogers-O'Connor, just heard about it... if they heard about it. So for the most part, people would vote for their local great match that was either recent or something referred to by the local pbp man. Even something like Thesz-Leone was past history in Los Angeles when the promotion was focused on Carpentier then Blasie then Destroyer. New York might be a little different because Bruno's dynasty went on so long. But if people were randomly asked at the Garden for the GOAT, it's hard to think of the Misawa-Kawada jumping out at them. Perhaps Bruno-Buddy was talked about because it was the start of Bruno's run. There also was the famous riot match. But I'm wondering how much Rocco had already been written out of New York wrestling history by 1971 because the focus was always on the present. Does that make any sense? Once Backlund was done in the WWF, his was largely written out. Less for "spite" (though who knows with Vince), but more in the tradition of the promotions focus in the present. Long time fans in Florida might was on about Brisco-Funk. Solie might talk about it. But in 1988 when the WWF was essentially taking over Florida, the kids and fans they were drawing probably didn't know a whole heck of a lot about Brisco-Funk. Vince, Jesse, Gorilla, Bobby, Gene... they weren't saying anything about it. In the US, "wrestling history" tended to be about the Moment. The past was only useful to build up the now. What happened elsewhere only matter if it could help sell here. Drove me nuts when I was looking stuff up. History degree, massive fan of sports history... and digging into the old results in the papers, their references to history were sporadic and usually wrong. It was a beast to try to track down stuff back then. John

I knew about it when I was growing up. How many of your friends talked about it? You know the chuckle heads you grew up with... seriously, how many of them knew much about the movie? I believe there's some stuff that's popped up in the past few years of folks who don't know Jordan much beyond "the shoes" and "he's suppose to be great, right"? Hoops fans? Sure. But how much of the population watches hoops? Slightly different era. You were born in 1981. Do think the kids born in 1991 or 2001 know/knew all the stuff that you did when you were a kid? I'm sure they could quickly find it on their iPhone via the wiki if you asked. But knew about him in the way that you did? Baseball isn't even that popular in the culture that it was in say 1991. Good... 1991, Twins vs Braves... 20+ years ago... I'm getting too damn old. Agreed. John

Yeah... Dr Z was never terribly fond of Guy, and probably was the best go-to guy for 60s and 70s candidates. The net yardage would be an interesting thing to try to recreate. Sad thing is that you can't do it from the newspaper box scores, and instead would have to see if there are official ones filed with the NFL... perhaps in the Hall of Fame. Would be really interesting to see. John

I'm not "demanding" a %. What I'm pointing to is that "Jesse had a Big Impact" is a really vague comment that one needs to step back and ponder "just how much"? We all agree that Hogan & Vince deserve the most credit for what happened to the WWF: taking over nearly all of the country. Now we're trying to give credit down the food chain to Fink and Jesse. Are they the most worthy of that credit, or are there other who should get further up the line? We all know that, and Jerry's points as well. They're the same general ones that have been tossed out in support of Jesse since they got on the ballot. We know he defined a role. We also agree that some think he's great while others are less enthused about listening to him. If a voter happens to think he's the GOAT of color commentary and that color commentary is a critical thing in pro wrestling, then go ahead and vote for him. On the other hand, Sable for the HOF? Sunny was before her like others were before Jesse, but Sable really defined the Diva role as a key part of the WWE product for the past 15 years. Not only the WWE, but TNA ripped it off as well. Not really to belittle what Jesse did, but his current impact on the WWE vs Sable's? :/ We in 2010/12 are fondly looking back to Jesse 25 years ago... are people in 2023 going to be arguing with Dave to get Sable in the HOF? One suspects Hogan was infront of the line there as well. He's had business managers / attorneys forever. We've talked about this in the past. It doesn't "count" mainstream fame, but it does leave it up to the voter to count it if he wants to. Dave obviously does, as he's pimped it with Jesse. I think a number of us have pointed out recently (possibly in this thread) that the mainstream fame of Jesse that folks talked up when he became Gov ended up being pretty insignificant in the long term. He's kind of bombed out in what he's done since then, other than several books that sold well. John

I'm not so sure, especially with Kane. I don't recall anyone ever discussing it while I was in K-12: teachers or student. It was discussed in college, but only in the circle that took Film As Art classes... or whatever the hell they were called back in the mid-80s when get got good & stoned and go watch revivals at the Rialto and Nuart Theatres. I can't say that it's come up in many conversations with other people post-college. Yohe is a massive film fan, so he knows about Kane. But... It's not really a widely discussed or cited movie in the US anymore for the "masses". There's a generation of guys who don't know about Jordan's greatness because it was 1982-98, and that's already 14 years ago. He is the guy in the Haines ads, and folks on Sports Center talk about him a lot... but 14 years ago is old history. Think about the coverage this week of Ali's bithday. He was champ for the last time back in 1979. I was 13 at the time. He's an iconic person in my life. But lordy... it's staggering that it was 30+ years ago, and that lots of people don't know who he is. Kane was 70 years ago. John

I think most fans in general haven't seen Flair-Steamboat. Hardcore fans? Sure, they've seen it. Fans back in 1989? To a degree... a large number of fans... but the WWF was the bigger promotion and there wasn't always 100% cross over. Fans buying DVD? The Flair dvd and others that it's been on have sold well... but not in the numbers that watch the TV shows. The 2/89, 4/89 and 5/89 Flair-Steamer matches were nearly 23 years ago. A quarter century. How many generation of WWF/WWE fans have come and gone sense then? Nearly the entire Monday Night Wars generation has come and gone. :/ I don't think there would be a consensus among most "wrestling fans" that Flair-Steamer is the best match of all time if, for example, you blind polled folks at house shows for the next six months (i.e. getting a good sample). That's not the perfect sample because more people watch at home, but it might be the *cleanest* sample you can get because it's less likely to get influenced by outside sources as you'd get in online voting. 23 years ago... it's really ancient history. John

I didn't say Jesse was along for the ride. Kamala was along for the ride: he got to main event against Hogan right after the Orndorff feud and right before the Andre match where Hogan was arguably at his Apex. I'm not saying *any* wrestler could have done the massive business that Kamala did against Hogan at that very moment. But there are a number of people that Hogan main evented against from 1984-1990 who, if put in a time machine and given a similar push and angle as they did at another time, could have drawn every bit as well as Kamala if not better. Hogan along with Vince & the WWF were the machine drawing in that feud far more than Kamala. Kamala = Along for the Ride Orndorff = Much less Along for the Ride I think Orndorff warrants some credit for his feud with Hogan drawing. Not as much as Hogan, and probably not as much as Vince & The WWF. But... Orndorff was pretty much the perfect wrestler/worker for that angle to get nailed as well as it did. The lion's share to Hogan, Vince & The WWF... but that feud is a major positive upon Orndorff's candidacy. Jesse clearly wasn't along for the ride. He played a role in the era. But when you talk about SNME, who was the *real* people involved in the creative and production of the show? Vince... who else helped book it and write it... who produced it (i.e. the real producer not Ebersol or Vince) and who directed it. Kerwin Silfies was the long time director for the WWF, going back even before SNME... and did all of the SNME, and the PPVs and all the syndication shows and Raw when it launched. He did it before Jesse got on the air, and after Jesse left. Perhaps he's a good one to nominate? Again, I think the true production side of the WWF/WWE is an unexplored part of the discussion. Given the choice between Silfies + Dunn + Dunn's predecessor/boss in the 80s and Jesse, I'm far more likely to vote for the production folks than Jesse. Jesse was part of that presentation. But so was Hogan's body & size. And Hogan's mic spots. And Hogan's posing routine. And Hogan making appearances on TV shows. And the angles they booked for Hogan (like not returning Orndorff's call). Then there were the folks shooting and direction and editing that stuff together. Then there was Bobby & Gorilla on Challenge... and over on Primetime... and doing house shows. And of course Vince and Gorilla next to Jesse in the booth. So how much of that Presentation = 70% is actually Jesse? 1%? 2%? John

I gave an example of two people who spent more hours backstage and had more impact: (i) whoever was the key Production Person in the WWF in the 80s, and (ii) Kevin Dunn. I can't credit Fink much for being a backstage guy when there are some major, massive backstage guys they we're either ignoring or know nothing about. Seriously... that (i) guy above is someone who is forgotten by history but played a major role in Expansion. I think a lot of his impact gets rolled into Vince, possibly Pat (the only other Front Office guy who gets any credit), and possibly Dunn (whose bio is written in a way to give him perhaps undo credit in the 80s). That dude, or those dudes, is someone that folks should try to identify and find out more about. It's pretty much an unwritten part of the 80s history. In turn, Kevin Dunn almost certainly should be on the ballot, and should get major consideration for going in. Whatever negatives Paul E, Corny and others want to throw at him, WWF Production has had a major impact on the company and the business in Dunn's term in charge (essentially 1993 on, meaning the whole Raw Era and also the expansion to monthly PPV). A lot of those positives have put major $$$$ into the WWE's coffers. John

Dave thought he was the greatest ring announcer ever and that he played a huge role in helping get over Mexican / Ethnic wrestlers. I never saw Lennon do wrestling. Saw him do a lot of boxing. Liked him a good deal, and he was iconic in Los Angeles. But I'm not going to advocate him for the HOF. I also wouldn't, if one thinks Lennon / Ring Announcers shouldn't be in the HOF, use it to argue for Fink to get in. One doesn't address an instance of flawed selection by using it to justify a second flawed selection. If that makes sense. John

"Historians are like deaf people who go on answering questions that no one has asked them." -Tolstoy John

Those three examples are more on the lines of Hogan-Andre rather than Misawa-Kawada. I seem to recall someone who was in Chicago in the era and saw several Rogers-O'Connor matches mentioning that the title change (which is the one circulating) wasn't their best. I tend to think it's a pretty disappointing match. It's literally impossible for us to know what would win the MOTY/GOAT in those eras from a WON Era viewpoint, with WON Era level of availability of matches. We truly don't know who the workers are that would have tickled the WON Voters like we've seen in the WON Era. If we look over the list of WON MOTY winners, or more so the top 3-5 of serious candidates, we'll find in terms of workers a small percentage of "WTF?!?" level workers. But that I mean that you don't typically see Lex and Sting getting up there unless they're in there with opponents that are generally considered really good workers by WON Voters. And if there is say a Sting vs Jake Roberts match that ended up finishing #2 in a WON MOTY award, there would be something instantly memorable about it that pushed it up. Instead, you're likely to see those guys up there with someone the voters dig a lot. Flair. Or Sting & Lex vs the Steiners coming in the same year the Steiners won it with Hase & Sasaki... in other words, the Steiners were at their peak of WON Voters loving their style of work. Projecting back to the 50s and 60s... really hard. It's hard even to do it for the 70s because it's difficult to project what US Matches would be widely available if wrestling were taped like it was in the second half of the 80s into the early 90s (wider TV, Big TV Shows, PPV, commerical tapes, etc). Who really knows what the 70s equiv of Freebirds vs Von Erichs six man tag that did well in the 1983 and 1984 polling would be. We can project a little for Japan because there's more of that available for us to look at, and we have a general idea of what did air: basically the same type of stuff that did in the 80s and 90s. What we don't have is everything that aired on TV. So while we pop for Jumbo-Funk in 1976, we're not really certain that there aren't other really great All Japan matches buried in the vault that a WON-style Voter would have "seen" in 1976 if there was "tape trading" in 1976 like there was in 1989 where the great/pimped matches made their way over here. John

It's never been considered the greatest match of all time. It's always been considered the greatest match of all time. Which one it is depends on the question being asked, and to whom. I mean... think about it. Look at the awards polls and see where other matches people have cited as the GOAT have placed: 04/89 Flair vs Steamboat 06/89 Jumbo vs Tenryu 06/90 Jumbo vs Misawa 12/92 Yamada & Toyota vs Kansai & Ozaki 04/93 Hokuto vs Kandori 06/94 Misawa vs Kawada 06/95 Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue 12/96 Misawa & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue xx/xx Any Lucha Match Ever Pick your own personal GOAT Match and look up where it finished. Conduct a GOAT poll on this board or say DVDVR or what ever similar, non-Consenus board you want to, and you're likely going to find that the GOAT Winner there and/or most of the Top GOAT Placers didn't win the WON MOTY. In turn, you'll likely be able to find some people who not long after the matches took place saying something to the equiv: "This is the best match I've ever seen." "This just might be the best match I've ever seen." "If _____ is the best match ever, this is ever bit as good / doesn't take seat to it." Etc. So... John

Really don't recall why we didn't. Like I said earlier, neither of us were down on him. Fall through the cracks stuff... but what's a little more amazing is that it didn't come up in 1997 where we caught a few folks, or really since then. He was a voice of the primary opposition to the WWF in the initial war and in the Monday Night War. That does have some meaning/value. Was he good? Open to debate. I'm not much of a fan, but there are folks who like him. He's not the quality that I would vote for... but I'm not going to cry if he went in. Suspect there are better announcers out there that we don't even know of. I think Gene was a detriment from day 1 of going to WCW. It just made them look like they were ripping off the WWF. It's one thing to rip off wrestlers, but when you rip off their longstanding shill, it just looks week. I'd say it was entirely different when the WWF stole Gene from the AWA: Gene wasn't truly "national" at that point, and it's more like moving from doing the news in Atlanta to New York: a move upward. Gene to WCW was like CBS taking Gumble to do their morning show after he'd peaked with the Today Show. I'll grant that CBS at the time needed to do *something* with their morning show since they were getting hammered for decades by the Today Show and GMA... but it came across weak. Gene was worse because WCW looked like they were trying to beat the WWF by being the WWF. When WCW finally took off strongly, it was with their own "feel" in 1996. I wouldn't have Hart in the discussion with Monsoon since they're two different roles. I could see Fink on the ballot, though it worries me a bit since that section of the ballot is so light that he may end up going in easy rather than people thinking about him. I've got to say that the past decade or so have shown that he didn't add a ton on whether a match/card/show/promotion was good or bad. Seriously... when was the last time that you watched a "great" WWE match and thought, "Damn... this would have been a lot better of Fink did the ring intros and instead it kind of isn't so great"? Was Flair-Steamer better or worse due to the ring announcer? Jumbo-Tenryu? Austin-Hart? Taker-Shawn? Don't really want to belittle what he did, but in the end... it means dick. He's the best at what he does, but for fuck's sake... Kevin Dunn's production crew had a hell of a lot more to do with the salad days of the late 90s / early 00s and whoever the heck had that role in the 80s did as well compared to Fink. We don't even know who the fuck that guy was in the 80s. Here's Dunn's bio: http://corporate.wwe.com/company/bios/k_dunn.jsp Fink has something on *that*? It's just a feel good thing because Fink was a constant in people's memories. But in terms of importance to WWF/WWE product? It's pretty laughable that he'd get on the ballot while 90% of pro wrestling hates Kevin Dunn. John

FWIW, I have no love for NOAH Kobashi... or even much of Kobashi after 1996. John

He and Jun got a ***** or MOTY or both. John

You're talking about two different things. The "is the best possible candidate" is for *voting*, not for whether they deserve to be on the ballot. If that were the case, then it would be a short ballot. But "anyone of note" is a massive list. Honkytonk is someone of note. On the ballot? Bossman is someone of note. Kamala is someone of note. Tito is someone of note. John Studd is someone of note. Where is the line? Everyone who headlined against Hogan from 1984-92 is in some degree "someone of note": he was the biggest wrestler of all-time, and his opponents all were of some note simply because they got rolled out against him. That was the analogy I was trying to make with the baseball examples. Bobby Womack was on the ballot... and hardly the *worst* guy on the ballot. It's a waste for him to be there: he's not going to get in, and will get so few votes that he will fall off. I don't know... maybe people get a warm and fuzzy feeling seeing Hercules on the ballot for a year. He headlines against Hogan and got a SNME match against him. One against Steamboat for the IC Title as well. But truly... he's going to fall off, and it's a waste of time for voters to even have to scan through his name, along with others below a certain level. I loved Tim Salmon. He's better than a number of players who have gotten some HOF run over the years, and better than some in. I'd like to see him remembered for being a good player. But I'm not sure that being on the ballot and getting less than 5% of the vote the first time out accomplishes anything. John

I could see him on the ballot. He isn't worth a vote, though. Not really. He didn't work in LA regularly, and I don't recall him popping things when he came in. I do recall Baba drawing a big house against The Destroyer... don't recall the same for Toyonobori. He was the initial choice to take Rikidozan's spot. It's a sign of how well that went that the company went with Baba instead, and Toyonobori was bounced from the company. He failed in his first opposition attempt, and dragged Inoki into it. The early IWE wasn't terribly successful, and it was Kobayashi and Kimura who emerged as the top stars. I wouldn't cry if he's on the ballot. He's not worth a vote. Which gets to a key question: Is the intent just to have people on the ballot who will then draw less than 5% of the votes and drop right off? Or is the intent to get people on the ballot who actually should be seriously considered for inclusion in the HOF? Vinny Castilla was on the baseball HOF ballot this year. Eric Young. Tony Womack. Phil Nevin. These guys weren't even consistently *good* players of any length. I suspect folks think Castilla was, but it was the park: BA/OBP/SLG .331/.377/.598 Career Games Played in Denver Parks (Mile High & Coors) .251/.295/.420 Career Games Played in Non-Denver Parks .251/.295/.420 for a "power hitting 3B" in that specific era... it's just sucks. Every year the ballot has guys like that pop up and go away quickly. It's generally a waste. There was some truly *good* players who pop up and go away quickly, simply because while they're good, no one thinks they're HOFers. Tim Salmon was on the ballot this year for the first time. Good player... real good player. If he played in New York from 1993-2001 instead of Paul O'Neill, he's be a remembered player. But O'Neill fell off the ballot after a year, and Salmon did as well. Those are two good players who go on and fell off... and really didn't warrant being on the ballot since they never were going to draw a ton of votes. Bernie Williams got less than 10% of the vote this year, which surprised me since I would have thought he'd get a bit more than that. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Bernie eventually goes in via the Vet, though he's unlikely to get in via the writers. So where's the cut off? I would argue that someone at Bernie's level is: you could make a reasonable argument that he'll eventually will get in via the Vet even if the writers don't vote him in. Salmon and O'Neill? Not going to happen. I'd make that argument with trying to get people on the WON HOF Ballot. Does Toyonobori ever have a shot of getting in, even 20 years when/if he drops to a WON Vet Committee to consider? Or is he just a guy who is going to fall right off the ballot quickly each time he's brought back? If the point is to "recognize" Toyonobori... it's kind of a waste. He's dead and doesn't give a shit if he's on the ballot. He played second and third fiddle to Toyonobori and Baba and Inoki after Rikidozan died. One can pretty much always see the progression of someone's push relative to Yoshimura: All Asia Tag Title Rikidozan & Toyonobori --> Toyonobori & Yoshimura Rikidozan dies, Yoshimura moves up to be Toyonobori's partner. Toyonobori & Yoshimura --> Toyonobori & Baba Baba returns and is pushed as Toyonobori's partner. Toyonobori & Baba --> Baba & Yoshimura Toyonobori gets bounced, and the title eventually go to Baba. Baba & Yoshimura --> Yoshimura & Ohki They create the NWA Int'l Tag Title, and that goes to Baba. He's too big of a star for the All Asia. Yoshimura & Ohki --> Inoki & Yoshimura Inoki gets the push. Inoki & Yoshimura --> Yoshimura & Ohki Inoki gets moved up into the NWA Int'l Title with Baba. They bounce the title around Yoshimura, Ohki and Inoki holding it, with Inoki & Yoshimura holding it when Inoki gets kicked out of JWA. Inoki & Yoshimura --> Sakaguchi & Yoshimura Saka takes over Inoki's old role as the #2 in the promotion, being the "top" guy in the All Asia Tag team, the #2 guy in the NWA Int'l Tag, and the UN Champ. In turn the NWA Int'l Tag: Baba & Yoshimura Inoki was out of the promotion at the time if I recall. Tooyonobori is gone by this point. So Yoshimura is the #2 to Baba when they create / bring in a higher tag title. When Inoki comes back and show's he's a good boy: Baba & Yoshimura --> Baba & Inoki When Inoki gets tossed: Baba & Inoki --> Baba & Sakaguchi On *placement*, I don't think Yoshimura deserves to be on the ballot. There are two things that might benefit him if we knew more: * front office * worker He was a player in the front office. Of course JWA eventually failed, but in the transition from Rikidozan to Toyonobori to Baba, the front office made the *right* choice. In the choice between Baba and Inoki, the promotion made the right choice: Baba was the more stable wrestler. Inoki went out, bombed, came back and they got roughly five years out of the double header of Baba & Inoki. Things did eventually blow up, and perhaps they could have been avoided if the front office was smarter in giving Baba a cut in the promotion and more power. But overall, they did seem to do well in the post-Rikidozan period when they could have fallen apart. How much of a role did Yoshimura play in the front office relative to Yoshinosato and Endo? I don't know. Perhaps something Hisa could help fill in, but even then it might be a little fuzzy. On the worker side, if there was as much material available from the 60s as there is from the 70s, perhaps we would have some understanding if Yoshimura was the workhorse of some of those teams and a hidden strong worker. It's a thin argument for the HOF, but if he were say the Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton unsung worker of the promotion, it would be interesting. Since we don't really know either of those things, he's just someone who would fall quickly off the ballot. John

I thought people loved it because: * he was Kobashi * it was long lusted after "Kobashi Is The Ace" run The only match I remember enjoying out of the entire run was Kobashi-Suzuki where Susuki did the "I'll shit on all your pro-style stuff!" gimmick... until it was time to roll over for it. Was enterained by Suzuki's stuff. John

Jun pretty much annoys me after 1996. John

I'm not sure if this is a positive. The company didn't take off until there were live Monday night shows. John

There are people who love his WCW stuff, which goes to the "we could argue his quality". His impact on WCW was nil. Unless it was in making the Turner Marks think WCW was big time by signing Jesse, and it help keep them from pulling the plug. Well, if that's is the case... don't people think Eric should go into the HOF? Who had more impact on keeping WCW alive to reach the eventual level that it reached: Eric or Jesse? I hate Eric. Suspect a lot of folks do here. But honestly, who was more impactful on the wrestling busines: Eric or Jesse? If we're talking impact, which should go in first? It's not like I've voted for Eric. But if a gun was put to my head and I had to vote for one, Eric is the obvious choice to me. And I HATE Eric. John

Part of me wonders if Jesse is beloved because he was somehow smarkier in his comments. Or maybe he was just anti-Hogan at a time where it seemed like no one else in the rest of the country was anti-Hogan except for Dave and his ilk. As if he was their mouthpiece on some level. Maybe that's reaching too far. I think he's entertaining, but part of why I like him is because, as a kid, I always felt "hey, Jesse has a point!" which has nothing to do with him being effective, just with me being contrary. I think there were people who didn't like Hogan. I certainly didn't like Hogan at the time, yet I didn't read the WON in the 80s. I don't know, how important/extraordinary/influential/striking, relatively, is the WWF's success in the 80s? I think it's something of a valid question? The WWF's success in the 80s was landmark. Pro wrestling had seen nothing like it before, and arguably nothing like it since. On the other hand, who are the people most responsible for it? Vince and Hulk. Who else? We don't know all the details of Patterson's impact behind the scenes, or just when it became impactful. WWF Production was ahead of the game. I know that a lot of us like to point to WWF Production in the later parts of the Monday Night Wars as their peak, but from the standpoint of putting on a very professional production in the mid-to-late 80s for their syndication and PPV product, the WWF was well ahead of the curve in pro wrestling. I also know that folks like to point to Dallas for being ahead of the curve, and Mid South in terms of quality of their TV product... but both really looked rinky dink relative to where the WWF transitioned towards in 1986 with the refresh of their syndicated programs, and also SNME and PPV. Is there someone involved in that worthy of the HOF? Long term, that person's impact is probably more than Jesse's. Then other wrestlers? I'm just trying to figure out what % goes to Jesse. Vince and Hulk eat up probably 80% of the credit, if not more. On the other extreme, there are probably a lot of guys who were along for the ride on some level. John

Michael Cole. Well, it's a slightly different question. It's also akin to those folks who don't think Maeda would get in the HOF because the type of wrestling he defined is dead. That it died doesn't take away the significance of what Maeda did. This all doesn't have anything to do with why I don't vote for Jesse. * I don't think he was a good announcer Folks can certainly debate that, and the majority of folks fall on the other side of that. But it's my vote, and I don't think he really was all that good, let alone great. I thought Hayes with Ross in UWF was much better, and always like Cornette much better in the role later in the decade. * the non-wrestling is meaningless to me Dave gets a boner over him becoming Governor. It means jack shit to me in terms of a wrestling HOF. To most of the country, it meant jack shit at the time, and means jack shit now. Dude off the Love Boat got voted into Congress. It doesn't make me think he should go into a TV HOF. * impact overplayed The role became a cliche that was run into the ground to the point of being of marginal value as the 90s went on. That doesn't mean that the role didn't still exist, but that was largely because people inside the business thought it was a key role. Jesse had a role in the WWF's success in the 80s. So did a lot of people. Are we going to toss all of them in? John

Bored me at the time, and Misawa-Kobashi winning three straight really accomplished nothing for me. John