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Police probe Adeyemi incident I'm guessing that Pool Fan doesn't really HATE Tom Adeyemi, but instead is just choosing to be racist. Or perhaps it's time to revisit the notion that there are no moral narratives in sports. John

It's perhaps more limited than that: Rock 'n' Wrestling WWF is the frame of reference That's not to say that JCP, Memphis and loads of other promotions / territores didn't have over the top angles and gimmicks and what not. But Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera isn't exactly the same as Hogan vs Kamala. Different level of heels, one is closer to the movies, the other is trying a bit more to be "sporting" even if it's theatrical. John

You talked about Moral elements, and also *narrative* elements. "There is no narrative element in real sports." "The narrative arcs are from tv and film." "Titles are won and lost on the pitch, yes, but scores are no settled." When people beat you up on the narrative element, you shifted slighty: "There ARE narratives there, but they are created by the media to CREATE INTEREST in what's going on." Then went crackers: "The stories don't matter." And seem oblivious that sports fans give up on teams all the time: "Football fans just don't stop watching if there are a few boring games or if their favourite players retire. They watch NO MATTER WHAT." In terms of committed fans, you're more likely to find a highler level of committement and fandom in major college (american) football in the US. All the same seedy shit as well. Well... I tried to make that point earlier. This is so wrong that I don't know where to start. It's just completely way off base. I think what some of us are trying to get across is the ones in sports are... BETTER The best angle storyline in wrestling last year (say Punk's) wasn't as good at the 20 best sports storylines around the world last year. Hell... I suspect that *we* collectively on this board don't even know the 20 best sports storylines in the world because the best ones are happening in some small town or country that we know dick about. I'll just randomly toss one out: If you were a hardcore College Hoops Fan, and didn't hate UConn hoops (which sadly I happen to hate), the Huskies storyline from Jan 29 through Apr 4 was something epic and compelling and mindboggling. If you were a Husky Hardcore and a Punk Hardcore, I suspect that you'd rank that Husky run of falling off the cliff then doing the nearly impossible as one of the greatest storylines you'd ever seen in sports. And that wasn't even an epic story for an emotional standpoint. Just a hell of a narrative that developed. Packers run to the Super Bowl last year? Looking at 2010, did pro wrestling have any narrative akin to Kelly Kulick's run at the PBA Tournament of Champions which was just nutty great both on an emotional level and on a historic level for the sport? Sports have narratives. Great ones. Of the charts ones. They've moved some of us far beyond anything in pro wrestling has moved us. Which was the point some of us made: Wrestling does a worse job with Storyline and Narrative than Sports... and it has no excuse for doing worse because pro wrestling has Control over Storyline and Narrative while Sports develop from play. John

No it's not the same thing. Spurs and Arsenal are morally neutral entities. Establishments connected to particular localities and communites which pre-date anyone alive today. You can support one or the other. Except... Spurs, Gunners, ManU, Barca, Real... these teams have fans around the WORLD. It's not just "localities and communites" of fandom. I've got two friends here who are Wednesday Fans. You know... the team that is down in the 3rd level of English football. They both live in the US... always have. Just happened to become Wednesday fans back in the 90s. Pogo Pete Stein is a ManCity Fan, which I seemed to be oblivious to. My friend Simon is a Blues fan... Hadi is a Spurs Fan... I'm a ManU fan. We kind of don't... you know... live in the "localities and communites" of the teams we follow. I'm a Duke Fan. They're in North Carolina, while I'm in SoCal... and always have been. Once the Braves got my favorite pitcher (Greg Maddux) in 1993, I started enjoying them while my interest in the Dodgers ebbed and flowed. Braves are in Atlanta. The "connection" is to the Team and the Players. This is meaningless. A neutral third party of a Hogan vs Andre match doesn't think that Andre Fans are good or evil. On they other hand, while they might not be Hogan or Andre Fans because (let's say) they're a Savage Fan, because they're Savage Fans they might hate both Wrestlers. In sporting terms: I hate Chelsea. I don't generally hate their fans. In fact, I like Simon quite a bit going back for close to a decade. But generally... I want to see Chelsea do very, very, very badly because it's good for my team. I root against them. I don't dislike the Gunners because I've liked the way they play football going back to the 90s. I root against them just enough for it to be good for ManU... but I don't root against them to the point that they're in the relegation struggle. I have no issues with their Fans because their Fans aren't competing with ManU: the *team* is. On the other hand, I kind of strongly dislike Liverpool Fans. That "comeback when you win 18" was a douchebag comment. Then the glee they took in 2010 over their team jobbing/tanking to Chelsea on the final day of the season to keep ManU from getting to 19... that was jerkoff stuff. Then add in Heysel... yeah, Liverpool Fans can take a flying fuck. Listen to sports fans talk. They often talk in terms of "we", feeling a strong bond to the team that frankly goes far beyond the nutty fandom of pro wrestling. That's a bond that's so strong that they don't even think in terms of being a Consumer. Which isn't too dissimilar from wrestling Wrestling Fans not seeing themselves as Consumers even when they're buying a Hulk Hogan Foam Finger. What's nice about this example is that we have a current example: Luis Suarez. And we know what happened there: Liverpool Fans have circled the wagon around Luis, rightly or wrongly. In contrast, I'm a rather large fan of Good Luis on the pitch (the extremely high quality of his play) while being moderately annoyed by Bad Luis on the pitch (he's quite a diving simulating twat). I've been a fan back to his Ajax days, and also love watching him play for Uruguay teaming with Diego Forlan. Some amazing stuff to watch. *I* couldn't defend him when he went Mike Tyson on an opponent's ear couple of years ago. *I* was troubled by the charges against him in the current episode, and not just because of player/team that made the complaint. What Luis was charged for, and found guilty of, is high on the list of the most morally objectionable things you can do on the futbol pitch and needs to be completely and forever gotten out of the game. Liverpool Fan = Circle the Wagons around Luis Other Fans = either Anti-Luis about the incident or troubled by it Fans are often blindly loyal to their teams or players... or willing to cut them a lot more slack than non-fans of the team/player. They don't to *Spurs* Fans. They do to other fans. ManU Fans were supportive of Giggs. Fans of *other* teams roasted his balls. Some with Roon when he was caught banging hookers. Same with Robbie Fowler over the coke rumors, to which he had an interesting comeback. Speaking of Fowler, there was also the Graeme Le Saux thing where not only the fans but Fowler brought Le Saux alleged personal life into the mix. You're nuts. Rooney is a heel to much of English Fans... except when he's suited up for England. Roy Keane anyone? It wasn't the transfer that made him a heel... it was because he was a fucking nutter on the pitch always too ready to be the enforcer. What about all the players who English fans love to go on and on and on about being diving twats compared to Good Manly English players? Again, you're thinking far too narrow. There are rumors and gossip, but a lot of it is also storylines On The Pitch. People fucking HATE HATE HATE ManU because we were Too Fucking Good. 26 trophies of note (excluding Charity Shields and Super Cups) in 22 seasons... that's Too Fucking Good and makes fans of other teams pissed / jealous / whinny bastards. That's fans of other teams eating up the Performance of ManU into their own bitter, hateful fashion due to what ManU did on the Pitch. It's not Sometimes. It happens every year. There were Arsenal Fans calling for Wenger's head on pike earlier this year... and last year... and for several seasons. There are very few teams where a manager is as universally beloved as Sir Alex. Again... the notion that Storylines must be MORAL is... well... nonsensical. I'll watch an episode or Cheers or Seinfeld tonight. What are the odds that the storyline of the episode has a truly Moral point... or is just trying to entertain fans and make them laugh for 30 minutes? I'm sure that the movie Tintin has some deep moral hooks. But really... it was just a fun movie. Revenge as a Moral storyline element? Redemption as a Moral storylines element? If you believe those are Moral storylines, then futbol and all other sports have them in spades. ManU has a game this weekend that's has, for ManU Fans, a storyline of Revenge. Or... you just like the fact that he kicks the ass of his opponents. You like to root for the big guy who wins. Which is Hulk. On the other hand, I and a lot of other people HATED THE LIVING SHIT out of Hogan in the 80s. He was everything we hated about pro wrestling. So we had a choice: hate the fuck out of him. Did Hogan really stand for "me"? Not at all... not in any way. So it was easy to hate him. Except... Heenan was always telling the truth about Hogan. Hogan being an asshole forced Andre to ask for a match. And Ted wasn't really evil, but just a rich man willing to share his money if people just gave him what he wanted. I hate to break you illusion, but some players and coaches really do dislike other teams and players. They also want to beat them. I gave you examples of Rooney and other ManU players expressing their joy of getting #19 and being able to tell the scousers to piss off. Andre didn't hate Hogan. He just wanted a title shot from his friend, and his friend said "no". So Andre forced the issue. No. It was story of a selfish fuck not willing to give his best friend and mentor a title shot. I chose to root for Andre. Lots of fans viewed Their Team vs ManU as Good vs Evil. ManU fans now view ManU vs City as Good vs Evil now that the foot is on the other shoe. Except that I'm not buying a ticket for the FA Cup game this weekend. I'm just watching it. And it's not really Home vs Away, because we could be away. Except that wrestling fans aren't one homogenous audience. You have noticed how fans react to John Cena. In turn, Riki Choshu had his own fans when fighting Fujinami and Inoki, and then Jumbo and Tenryu. Don't pigeonhole either sports fans or wrestling fans. They have the ability to think for themselves. I was at one of the first Hogan vs Flair matches, and there were a good number of fans in the building who rooted for Flair... and his "winning" the title got a much bigger pop than you would think infront of a WWF crowd. The problem here isn't whether it's closer to one or the other. It's your denial that it bears any resemblance to sports, or that sports have narratives. Jumbo vs Tenryu was a lot closer to Yankees (Jumbo) vs Red Sox (Tenryu) than Die Hard. Ric Flair vs Rick Steamboat in 1989 was much closer to Sports than Die Hard, despite the Clash incident where Flair got stripped down to his undies. The majority of the series was pushed in a sporting fashion. You're trying to come up with one of your One True Rules Of Pro Wrestling when the simple fact is that there isn't one here. Flair had plenty of fans in JCP even while being a heel. Razor had fans while a heel... to the point that the WWF turned him face. Then there are guys like Skinner that no one gave a fuck about whether he was a heel or a face. Or guys that the company pushes as a face that only 10% of the fans give a shit about, while no one else does. I'm not a "neutral" when Spurs and Gunners play. I'm looking at the table, figuring out what result benefits ManU the most, and also which of the two teams I enjoy more this year. Perhaps a Wigan Fan who doesn't care about either of those teams is neutral, but a Rival Fan *cares*. I'm not a Heat Fan in the NBA. On the other hand... I enjoy them losing, and if I'm watching a game of theirs, I'm pulling for the other team. If I'm watching a ManCity or Real Madrid game, I sure as hell are not neutral. I'm pulling for them to lose. I've bailed out on a number of teams that piss me off. I gave you an example, which you chose to ignore, of fans leaving teams by the tens of thousands. We also all know of ratings, even local ratings, going down "in thin" when the team is losing or the ownership has pissed them off. I keep going back to this, but I think you truly do not have a good understanding of Sports Fandom and Sports in general. I want ManU to kick the living shit out of ManCity this weakend as revenge for that 6-1 ass kicking they gave us earlier this year. I want to see ManU re-establish themselves as The Man of the EPL, with a win launching them on a glorious run to a 20th league title and another FA Cup. I want to see ManCity reduced to controversy and internal strife that pulls down all that Mancini is trying to build with the Sheik's money. Fuck those City cocksuckers! How's that? I suspect that a few million ManU fans around the world are thinking that... most likely more than gave a shit about the Hulkster beating some lowe down SOB. John

Heels did do the Atomic Drop. Harley used it from time to time, but Harley used everything. Ivan Koloff used it. I suspect a few more. They typically used the Reverse Atomic Drop as the more Heel move, while the Atomic Drop was the more Face move due to one being for Cheating and the other for Stooging. John

Is think like a Syphilis vs Clap question? C'mon, Mooney is far from that bad. His old stuff can be perfectly fine or even somewhat entertaining, but Pettingill is literally unwatchable when he's not being reigned in Vince or JR on Action Zone. And was made worse by his female clone. I'm trying to remember Pettingill on Mania/LiveWire and if I thought he was a decent host for a highlight show. Suspect it was more likely early Cole where I thought it was a very good role for him relative to the interviewer role on Raw that transitioned into a spot at the table. It's also quite possible that I hated Gene Okerland so much as the host of All American Wrestling that I tolerated Pettingill on Mania/LiveWire as an alternative that he seemed "passable". Mooney just struck me as yet another of the WWF's shitty announcers in the 80s / early 90s. If you're going to be shitty, at least entertain me with your shittiness like Kal Rudman and Dick Graham did. John

They're not created by the media. Kobe's bad wrist, poor shooting and ballhogging aren't media inventions. They're real facts that Lakers Fans talk about simply by watching the team play. The media didn't create ManU's losses to a pair of teams that on paper they were expected to beat, nor their horrible defense and creative issues. It's things that happened in games, and that fans talked about. Christ... my dad called me on the phone at work after the game yesterday, before Sky Sports aried, and he's not one who reads the British tabloids online. He was just pissed off by the performance of the team, and had his own storylines he took out of the game (and recent games) that was annoying the shit out if him. He's just a fan. Not even a nutty hardcore fan like me. Some storylines are closer to sports, while some are closer to entertainment. No one is denying that... except for the person who is claiming there are no storylines in sports, and those that are in sports are faux storylines created by the media. John

Narrative is even more over the top in England than it is in the US. Rooney's issues with ManU in the 2010/2011 season were hyped well beyond their equiv in the US (Melo wanting out of Denver). Add in his injury issues the year before, his performance at the World Cup, his horrid start to the season... It was huge. My thought would be for folks to watch Sky Sports News, which is even more sensationalistic than a norm SportsCenter over here... and we're not even seeing the half of it since we're only seeing Sky's "news" program, not their shows wrapping around the soccer games which are extremely critical in terms of narrative and storyline. Wayne Rooney's issues with United weren't the equivalent of Carmelo Anthony wanting out of Denver. Carmelo wanting out of Denver wasn't a pimple on the ass of Wayne Rooney's issues with United. Rooney, if he'd stuck to his guns and not signed a five year deal two days after signalling his intent to leave, would've been as big a story as Lebron James; it wasn't. Rooney's story was the equiv of Melo: star demands to be shipped out of his team. They weren't the equiv of Lebron because Lebron never asked to leave, and strung Cleveland along until the very end that he might stay. In terms of hype, I said quite clear that Rooney's issues with ManU in 2010/2011 were hyped well beyond Melo's. Which they were. Not even close, even with Melo's storyline involving New York. Sure. The World Cup bids. Years in the making, and will linger all the way through the games. A typical Sky Sports News is more sensational than the typical Sports Center. Christ, they have a regular segment looking at the Tabloids. The US is a larger country with more "major" sports to cover. It beats the shit out of me why we need a dick swinging game on whether the US or UK have more sports coverage. My point was that Jerry was either oblivious to or in denial about the fact that sports even in his country have regular, continuing and massive storylines in his sports. But by all means if you want to defend Jerry's contention that there aren't sports storylines in the UK, I'd invite you to go up to my point about ManU's storyline of the 19th Title, Jerry's claim that it was just a media storyline that the players and fans didn't really give a shit about, and the evidence that he was either oblivious to or in denial about it. The Lakers played the Blazer tonight. I listened to storyline about it this morning when driving to work. Heard storyline about it on the radio while driving at lunch (i) to pick up a card for a friend whose father died, (ii) from that Hallmark to Togos to get a sandwich, after eating it (iii) from Togos back to work. Read a few blogs and posts today on storyline about it. Listened to the game on the way home, where there was a crapload of storyline talked about during halftime. When I got home, I listened to local storyline on KCLA... and flipped over to get national storyline on TNT's coverage of the game. More on the post game show on TNT. Was flipping the dial around 10:45 and passed KCAL where they were getting a live post game report from Portland by their reporter (who doubles as the Lakers radio pbp man)... storyline. If I wasn't kinda enjoying The Song Remains The Same on Palladia right now, I probably could flip over to SportsCenter and get me some there as well... or ESPN News. That's one rather minor game in a season of 66 games for each team... not counting the post season. That's not even couting the articles I read today about the Howard deal being speculated about. The notion that storyline is a Media creation to sell the Media is obtuse. Anyone who participates on a Sports Board knows that fans talk about storyline all on their own. Or anyone who simply talks sports with their friends. John

Is think like a Syphilis vs Clap question? John

Ah yes. I still remember with great glee the sight of Pervis Ellison, Milt "The Stilt" Wagner, Herbert Crook, Billy Thompson, and Jeff Hall celebrating after beating Duke for the Championship. Great game. Having been a Dodgers Fan and as a kid watching them lose in the WS in 1974, 1977 & 1978, then lose in the 163rd game of the 1980 season, it made the 1981 WS richer. I liked that with Duke: all those Final Four loses, climaxing with the 1990 ass kicking at the hands of UNLV, made 1991 much more awesome, then in 1992 being the first since 1973 to back-to-back... especially over UK and those Fab Five assholes, all that much greater. Having a great / good / productive season while not winning the ultimate prize doesn't piss me off. I kind of was okay with the 2009/2010 ManU team even though the Blues won the EPL: I had expected the loss of Ronaldo and Tevez to sink us to the point that getting into the CL would be at risk. Instead, there were a lot of positives about the season. It's stuff like the 1999 loss to UConn and 1998 loss to UK that piss me off since Duke should have won both games. John

Narrative is even more over the top in England than it is in the US. Rooney's issues with ManU in the 2010/2011 season were hyped well beyond their equiv in the US (Melo wanting out of Denver). Add in his injury issues the year before, his performance at the World Cup, his horrid start to the season... It was huge. My thought would be for folks to watch Sky Sports News, which is even more sensationalistic than a norm SportsCenter over here... and we're not even seeing the half of it since we're only seeing Sky's "news" program, not their shows wrapping around the soccer games which are extremely critical in terms of narrative and storyline. That's not even touching on the level of storyline around even the most mediocre of teams: Blackburn fans to step up Kean protests That's an ESPN site, so it really doesn't get across strongly enough how massive the storyline of "Kean Sucks And Has To Go!!!!" has been all season for Blackburn Fans. And I'm not even going to get into the goofy owners of Blackburn. John

And the USC Trojans football team. Growing up in Los Angeles, add in the Dodgers and UCLA basketball in my youth. I have a low tolerance for shitty run organizations / teams / program because I grew up watching good ones. When looking for teams, I tend to look for one that's run like the Dodgers of the 70s or Bruins of the later Wooden era of my youth, or the Lakers of the 80s. Actually got in on the front end of Coach K's run with Duke with the 1985/86 team, and the front end of SAF's run with ManU with the 1992/93 team which is when I got back into futbol after bailing with Heysel. John

Understood. That was the thing I led off with: Vader is just a starting point to (i) make money, (ii) freshen up the top, and (iii) buy time to develop/steal more talent. Which was the rest of the folks and things they needed to do that I talked about. Vaders price wouldn't have been massively high in 1995. His WWF deal wasn't a monster simply because WWF deals weren't monster at the time: extremely low guarantees and a promise of % based on where they worked on cards. More work, and slotted at Vince's whim vs a very good guarantee and less dates working for Baba. At the time, Japan gigs were considered plums that high. On the other hand, Vader was use to making $650K+ from WCW and a nice chunk from UWFi as well. He'd be making less from Baba, though probably more than from Vince given the push you'd expect him to get (which wasn't that far removed from what he got). I don't think Baba looked at Gary as an option in some big grand plan to freshen up the product, since he really didn't seem to be in the market to go out and grab a lot of talent. Came across more as something that popped up, and he grabed him. They were looking for quite some time for a partner for Hansen, and Gary seemed to them to fit it. Seems clear they saw the error of their ways not long into 1996. It was in the WON a week before the Vader-Orndorff fight that Gary was expected to be Hansen's partner starting in October. I wouldn't have bitten on Gary. I think I mentioned earlier what I more likely would have done in 1995 after Doc went out: * Hansen rejoining hands with Ace * Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue vs Hansen & Ace to fill 1995 / early 1996 * Doc returns at Carny '96 * Ace turns on Hansen to go back to Williams * Kobashi moves over to team with Hansen * Jun moves up to team with Misawa * Misawa & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue vs Hansen & Kobashi vs Williams & Ace after Carny '96 At least as far as mentally blocking things out in Mar/Apr 1995. Which would have led to one not searching around for a Hansen Partner in the Summer of 1995 because you know where you're going with him. Which in turn if Vader pops available as he did, you're not already distracted by Albright. Setting that aside, even if I had Gary in hand, I would have bit on Vader because of the money that he could make you and the time he buys. John

He was brought in on 3/1/97 if I recall correctly. He wouldn't have been available before the NJPW vs UWFi feud was done, but he is one of the guys that I would, in hindsight, bring in when it was over. If you're doing an UWFi vs NJPW feud, then you'd want to hold him off until Takada was brought in... but since Takayama would have had some longer term, regular role, the important thing would have been to bring him in as soon as possible to develop. In a sense, that's what they did after UWFi died at the end of 1996. I'm not pimping his as being ready in late 1996 to be Taue's partner holding the Double Cup. On the other, I do think he quickly could have been a #3 on someone's group and worked towards being a #2. He really wasn't developed in that way by NJPW. Team No Fear did get a push, but a rather odd one compared to the usual top native teams going back to the begining of AJPW: there was no #1 on the team. I wouldn't have worried about the size. Kawada broke through that despite being shorter than Baba, Jumbo and Tenryu. I also wouldn't worry about being spotty. Tanaka was 23 in 1996. Taue was 23 in 1984... four years before his pro wrestling debut. Tell me which one was a better worker at 23? Working with the top guys in AJPW made Taue a better worker. Why wouldn't we think it would make Tanaka better? I suspect the stuff to watch is his work *before* AJPW. I also think that midcard AJPW by the time he got there was meaningless stuff, not exactly the stuff that one would compare with say 1993 midcard AJPW stuff. Ikeda came in, got stuff, saw his future, and just did his thing. If you're casting out a net and tell guys like him you're projecting him to being one of Jun's rivals long term, he knows he has to work to earn that spot. He certainly had the skills and tools to do it. Izumida didn't. I mentioned Honda in another thread... probably the 1994 pimping thread, talking about his match with Ace. They certainly could have done more with him, especially putting him under someone's wing more clearly (and using TV better to get that across). We talked about it a lot at the time. It was frustrating. Some things you missed, like seeing any potential in Takayama. Some you saw as obvious, like the brief Jun-Omori window. Others had some flashes like Honda in his match with Gary, but there really wasn't enough to jump out at you as "This guy needs to be put under Taue so he can learn to work with and around his limitations." BTW, one interesting thought in all this is what would have happened if Takada was given enough time to avoid fighting Gracie. 10/11/97, it was the dawn of Pride. Of course they backed up a Brinks Truck for him, and that money might have been there in 1998 or 1999 if he was occupied in AJPW in 1997, and Takada certainly loved money. John

You're contradicting yourself here. If you're a Spurs Fan, you hate the Gunners. If you're a Hogan Fan, you hate the Brain, Andre and the Million Dollar Man. Same thing. You are a Fan of one side in a game, and you root against / hate / dislike the other team. No. People are prone to like the teams / stars the Like. There are all sorts of reasons for it. It can be their father or brother or friend was a fan. It could be that they have a friend who likes the team, and they're tired of listening to their fandom so they pick a *different* team to root for. It could be a player they like being on the team that they like, so they end up liking the team. It could be as simple as the color of the kit, and then liking them over the year. True story: I have a friend whose son isn't a Giants fan like they are, but is a Packers fan because he liked Green when he was a kid... then started liking Farve when he got old enough to know the players... now likes Rogers. It all started because he liked the Green Team. I told the story of Hoback's kid liking Hulk Hogan. The kid doesn't even really like pro wrestling, but because his Old Man hates Hogan, his pre-teen way to drive his Old Man nuts was to like Hogan. Brilliant wise ass kid. I follow ManU because of what we could say is "storyline": (i) Heysel, and (ii) getting back into futbol in 1992-93. It would take some explaining to get across what I mean by that, and I suspect I've written about it either here or on tOA in the past. So there are lots of reasons to like a team / player. Don't think so narrow or project why you like a team or player onto why others do. Except that... Chelsea Fans loved Jose. Inter Fans loved Jose. Madridistas Fans will love Jose if he has them at the top of La Liga at the end of the season. *I* would love Jose if he coached the Red Devils. Actually, lots of people hate ManCity because they have the Sheik's ££££££££. Same reason a lot of people didn't like ManU in the 90s when they started winning and were spending tons of £££££££, and the Yankees are hated for spending tons of $$$$$ when the Blackburns of the world are broke. Which is my point: folks in England don't have a grasp of how the rest of the futbol world views them. One of the more eye opening futbol things I ever did was reading a lot of rec.sports.soccer back in 1996-98 where you got a real good taste of how roughly 90% of non-English fans thought the English were a bunch of jerkoffs on so many levels that it wasn't even funny. The 10% who didn't think that? Yanks who were fans of the EPL. Everyone else really had a shitload of fun pointing out flaws of English futbol, players, teams and fans. Of course in England, 1966 is viewed as a saintly event. I watched the game live, so I remember both well. I also remember in both 1998 and 2002 England still gripping about it. Maradonna is a heel to England. You can still admire a heel. I think Real is a heel team. Doesn't mean I can't be in awe of some of their performances this season and last. I just happen to enjoy stuff like Barca bouncing them in the CL and beating them in the Spannish Super Cup earlier this year. The second was better to watch because the quality of futbol was off the charts, but I confess to also enjoying Barca driving Real nuts in the CL with all sorts of gamesmanship. Maradonna and Hollywood Hogan are. You didn't happen to be in Los Angeles in 1984 and see the jingoism. Granted, since the Mega Heel stayed home, there wasn't real xenophobia. Except... the "fans" went out of their way to "cheer" for the countries that broke the Heel's boycott. Except of course when things like Team USA in gymnastics. You must have missed the Monkey and Banana stuff. I'm getting a feeling that I'm wasting my time talking sports with you since you don't actually seem to be following sports. Manchester United players share their elation at winning 19th league title with fans on Twitter: Manchester United’s delirious players shared their delight at helping the club to a record 19th title with millions of fans on Twitter as they celebrated into the early hours of Sunday morning. Wayne Rooney shaves 19 into his chest hair as Man Utd stars tweet glee: Wayne Rooney found an unusual way to celebrate Manchester United's record-breaking Premier League title triumph - shaving '19' into his chest hair and posting a picture of it on Twitter Rooney taunts Liverpool fans after clincing record 19th title You're bitter because we're more successful than you! Ferdinand hits out at fans of Manchester United's great rivals Liverpool I could post another hundred links, pictures about "Comeback When You've Won 18", point to the 19 Times Champion products sold around the net... even on ManU's own website. Hell, I've got a 19 Times key chain from my Old Man as a Christmas gift because he, a YANK, enjoyed beating Pool's record so much last year. Am I wasting time going through the rest of this when you don't even know one of the biggest storyline of English Football in the 2010-2011 season? :/ Yeah... except his players... and all real ManU Fans. No. There's a narrative of ManCity Fans to beat ManU after years of having to eat shit from them. The media isn't making it up: ManCity Fans *want* to beat ManU. Messi wants to win titles. It's well known. We fans who follow him and also were lucky enough to watch Maradonna also having it in our heads: Maradona was a one man gang that got his team the Copa, and dragged them back to the final four years later. Can Messi be better than Mardona if he doesn't make his mark on a major national tourney? Does he need to win? Netherlands didn't win in 1974, but it made enough of a mark that a certain someone gets talked in that very upper level. This isn't just stuff that the Media talks about. *Fans* do. It's what sports fans talk about. Not at all. Come April and May we'll have Relegation storylines involving sad sack teams all over Europe. It's not just the nobility of football that have storylines, but the peasants and middle class as well. El Classico is a rich one. But Wigan's battle up from the 3rd Division through three promotions to the EPL and now regular battle to stay up... that's a great storyline. It may mean nothing to fans of other teams, but to a historian it's pretty great... and to a Wigan Fan it's amazing and now dramatic as all hell trying to stay up. My mind hurts. Austin Rivers, Duke's young freshman starlet, was tweeting about his HATE of the North Carolina Tar Heels before he even got to Duke. You're wrong. As a six year old, I learned to HATE Notre Dame football from my father, a USC Fan. And loved Anthony Davis torching them for six touchdowns: As an either year old, I watched in horror as the Irish ran out to a 24-0 lead. Then... AD struck, and one of the legendary games in USC history unfolded: Now in the other direction, Domers fucking HATE Trojans... and I'm sure if there are any Domers around here, they'd be able to point to their great storyline game, or games... of that whole damn streak of games where they beat the Trojans. So why do ratings of games go up and down? More Bama Fans watch their game against Auburn than their games against Kent State, North Texas and Georgia Southern. ManU drew just 52,624, rather than 70K+ for their game on 11/30. Why? Carling Cup. Didn't mean as much to fans. I suspect that their ratings also move up and down given the opponent. ManU vs Blackburn doesn't draw the ratings that ManU vs Chelsea draws, even among ManU Fans. You're wrong. Fans of sports, teams and players quite all the time. Ask any fan of NASCAR on this board about the ratings and attendance of the sport, and how even long time fans are dropping off. There were several storylines with the LA Dodgers this year that impacted their fans watching the team. Look at the drop over the past several years: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAD/attend.shtml The Baltimore O's use to sellout every game. Check out what's happened there: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/attend.shtml I'm sure some O's fans could explain to you why... though I've followed it enough if we don't have any O's fans here. Only to someone who doesn't truly follow sports or understand them and Sports Fans. :/ I confess to being totally gobsmacked by your post. John

I could do the same with Movies and Pro Wrestling. It doesn't mean that Movies = Pro Wrestling. Or Movies and Sports, and it wouldn't mean that Movies = Sports. It's just to point out that the notion that Sports do not create and have narrative and storylines is... quite wrong. John

I almost hate calling them "heel" and "face" because it gives the impression that the NBA and Media actually pushed them in a pro wrestling fashion. That really isn't the case. Instead, nearly the entire basketball world (other than in Miami) decided they hated Lebron when he jumped to Miami from CLE and joined hands with Wade and Bosh. It just... happened. Because sports fans do work up a lot of hate towards teams/players they don't like. John

Exactly. This is a point that I, and I suspect others, have been hammering for a decade and a half. Pro wrestling has no excuse for doing as shitty of a job on narrative, drama and storytelling relative to sports because pro wrestling can control it far better. The Saints and the Pack have won the last two Super Bowls. Pitt and New England have gone to seven of the last 10 Super Bowls, winning five of them. If there were a Rogers vs Brees and Brady vs Big Ben pair of Conference Championships, then any of the four match ups in the Super Bowl, it would be a massive natural story. The NFL can't write it to happen. It just does happen on occasion. Manning vs Brees a few years back just happened. Manning vs Brady was a long term storyline, with a massive monkey building up on Manning's shoulder. The Rams in 2000, the Greatest Show On Turf, just developed out of nowhere doing the course of a season, and actually had the payoff of a Super Bowl. Two years later, the Rams were back... and we didn't quite get until the next year that we saw the dawn of a new Hall of Famer in that Rams-Pats Super Bowl. Every sports has stuff like this... and it's often just "shit happens" stuff. John

There weren't any reports at the time that Baba was trying. I don't recall the WWF being his first choice, but it ended up being the only option: * he got run from WCW * ECW didn't pay * NJPW was still pissed off from his 1992-93 stuff * UWFi was dead * FMW didn't pay long term * AJPW was in its cocoon The Inoki match gives the illusion that NJPW was willing to have him come back, but that was largely an Inoki deal i.e. "We'll humor Inoki with an opponent he wants" rather than a sign that they wanted him to be a regular. The WWF wasn't paying remotely close to his prior big WCW deal, nor his WCW+UWFi income. There also was the WWF being the WWF, which Vader knew well... and we ended up seeing exactly when he first went in and got bogged down in dumbass feuds (and jobs) rather than being programed up to the top quickly as a monster for Shawn to chase. One suspects that if the Babas quickly went after him once he was dumped by WCW and made him an top gaijin offer (on par with Hansen), Leon would have bitten. It depends on the time frame people are available, and how they fit in. Vader was available when he got canned. I would have signed him quickly to an exclusive (i.e. no US work) deal that ran through the 1997 RWTL, which probably would have ended up being just about right to keep him from getting obsessed about the massive jump in US salaries going on due to the Monday Night Wars and longing to sign a big deal with the WWF when they got desperate. Tamura was never available because he didn't want to work pro style, hence his avoiding the NJPW-UWFi feud and instead going to RINGS. The balance of the UWFi guys weren't available until after the NJPW deal was done... unless Baba somehow picked some off who didn't want the NJPW deal. Not sure who those would have been. On the other hand, they all were largely available once the NJPW deal ran its course, and UWFi largely was dead. Look at what happened to them: feud with WAR and then Kingdom, which also died. I disagree with the notion that Takada wouldn't work with Baba. He worked with WAR after the NJPW deal was done, with there being two Takada-Tenryu matches. He worked with Tokyo Pro, having the match with *Abby*. Takada would have worked with Baba. He would have been available after the NJPW deal was done, and one would have wanted to grab him *before* his matches Tenryu. There's also the question of usage. Takada probably didn't want to work a full series of matches, 8 series a year. I'd actually argue that it wouldn't have been wise to use him that way, and instead milk him for special, big matches and once they've run their course, move on from him. In turn, Vader *was* an every show guy. Problems with getting Vader? Hansen was the top gaijin, and Williams was returning in March 1996. Vader coming in would clearly be the top-top gaijin, and booked quickly into the TC if you're planning to make the most out of him. Vader, Doc and Stan are all making good money (and AJPW expense). You'd be pushing Stan down, having a ceiling on Doc returning... and who knows what that does to the locker room. Is it time to scale Hansen back from 8 series to 6? What do you do with Doc? Not easy answers. I wouldn't let them get in the way of signing Vader since the product needed a shot in the arm, but I'd also be realistic that it alters the dynamic of the other two gaijin, and adds a big expense. * * * * * * * When you look at Takada and Vader, they're *short term* additions. They're not guys who are going to spend the next 10 years as rivals of Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue. They're guys to pop some big houses, and should be seen as such. There's value and limitations there. The value is that if you pop the houses and know that they're short term, you can use that money (if you're smart) to invest in the long term and/or set aside for investment as the product comes down. I know... no one does that. But still. The limitation is that when you come out of those, the product is going to dip because it's hard to get people super excited for going Misawa vs Kawada again if they've just done Vader vs All Japan and/or Takada vs All Japan. Which means again that you need to look beyond those two. I don't think there was anyone out there that AJPW could easily get who would be long term peers/rivals of the Four Corners, unless it was Hash when he finally hit the wall with New Japan... which if I recall came *after* the Split. The other peers in the country weren't moving (the NJPW top guys of that age group) or were problematic (Takada isn't going to work 150+ AJPW matches a year). So instead, the company really needed to be looking at people who would be Jun's rivals / peers, at least in the heavyweight range. At a certain point, Masato Tanaka was available. I recall stories of how low his pay in ECW was, and it probably wasn't all that great in FMW. I would have looked hard at stealing Tanaka with the promise of a push opposite Jun as a long term rival/peer. I confess to, in hindsight, missing the boat on Takayama's potential. Add to the long list of awkward guys that you could have put under Taue's wing to learn the All Japan Way. I certainly would have pushed hard to sign Sano the instant things went south for UWFi. He's not a Jun rival, but more along the lines of a younger Fuchi that would be a valuable addition to either the junior or All Asia divisions as an anchor, a part of one of the native groups, and a terrifically rounded worker who would be excellent to work with younger wrestlers to learn a broader base of work. Same with the other promotions. I would have looked for underpaid guys who would have been interested in moving from a small pond to a bigger pond, or who were unhappy with being under a one-man anchor who no doubt was taking a big chunk of the money. Hayabusa? One does wonder how thrilled some of these guys were when Onita came back at the end of 1996. They did eventually lift Ikeda, though the stuffed him down in the junior which I wouldn't have. I also would have looked at the guys who largely got hung out to dry when Sasakue had his dreams of going to the US. The AJPW midcard was thin and weak, whereas the NJPW midcard was a value added part of the cards. Were there enough spots in the card for all of them? Perhaps not. Find the balance, and find people who would prefer the stability and paydays of AJPW, dealing with a solid front office rather than a crackpot like Sasuke. * * * * * * That's all good and fine, but in the end All Japan also needed to beef up their Dojo. 04/11/91 Inoue 05/25/92 Izumida 09/17/92 Akiyama 10/16/92 Omori 10/08/93 Honda 11/26/94 Mossman Those are the debuts of potential heavyweights in the 90s. It... really sucks. Guys like Inoue and Izumida are marginal, Honda was older than one would want. Which leaves you needing to hit the ball out of the park with Jun, Omori and Mossman to have just *three* guys akin to Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue. You can't sustain a promotion with production like that. Hence some of the stuff I said above about knowing Vader and/or Takada were short term: the objective out of them would be to milk the use of them to invest in other things. Grabbing Tanaka, who sure as hell would have been cheaper than Gary Albright, is one side of it. Investing in a better Dojo process was the other side. * * * * * Not saying that all of these are possible. Getting Vader then Takada is a bit of a problem, since you'd have Vader in hand when Takada came open, and also midway through your first year with him right in the middle of the biggest part of the push. It's a little hard to grab Takada and then "bench" him while waiting for the right time in Vader's run to bring Takada in as the next big push... and also do it in a fashion that works around Takada not working every card. Picking off the indy guys you want isn't easy. Baba didn't have any love for garbage *at that time*. You also never know when someone's ego is stroked (Busa in 1995) isn't (when Onita came back) or restroked (when FMW tried it's run as a more "serious" promotion). You need to strike when you get a chance. But AJPW did have to wake up to the fact that: * they were stale as hell in 1995 * Doc coming back in 1996 wasn't a magic potion that deals with that * they had serious issues in developing peers for Jun * they didn't have time to magical develop those peers, so they would need to steal if possible * the midcards sucked * the depth on the Four Corners teams needed to be developed behind them * top gaijins were becoming rate * going Four Across (four top teams/groups) with 2 native and 2 gaijin teams was getting hard * they needed to transition to 3 native and 1 gaijin teams eventually... if not 4 native teams If they ever got to the last, that meant splitting each of the Four Corners into a group leader *and* having not only a solid #2 for each (i.e. Jun for Misawa), but also #3 and #4's for depth. If they didn't have the talent in the promotion to fill out those 16 slots (they didn't), they needed to look around to do it. John

Very cool. John

Heels in life aren't "artificial constructs designed to elicit cheers or boos" - they simply are people/things that are disliked and elicit boos and/or are hated. George Bush is, to the majority of people in the world, a big giant heel. Not just outside the US, but even in the US where he left offsive with monsterous unfavorability numbers. You'll find that the biggest heels in real life are vastly bigger heels than their fictional counterpoints: Jack the Ripper, Stalin, [Godwin's Law], The Bankers, OBL, etc. Ric Flair is a pissant compared to them. In turn, the biggest heels in sports are much bigger than goofballs like Flair. How many people watched the highest rated Raw or TNA last year? Compare that with the number of people who watched the NBA Final, were there was a clear Monster Heel Team and Players (Lebron and the Heat) that drew well even opposite a team and player that aren't really strong draws (Dirk and the Mavs). The NBA's wet dream Final last year? Lakers vs Heat, with the Monster Heel Team against a player who is a Big Face in the 2nd largest market in the NBA... and a Monster Heel in every other market. Hell, Kobe draw monster ratings the year before against the Celts. The Yanks have that Monster Heel / Local Face thing going on, and more people would watch the Yanks in the Series than the Brewers. Ronaldo and Real Madrid are heels... to everyone but their own fans. ManU are heels, as are Chelsea... as are ManCity... to everyone but their own fans. Maradonna was a heel to an entire country (England), while the rest of the world generally thought England deservered the fucking Maradona gave them as payback for the shaddiness of the 1966 Copa. Sports has tons of heels. Saints vs Sinners? WTF? There wasn't a narrative in the EPL last season of ManU trying to win their 19th title to go past Pool and turn the years of taunts back at the scousers? There isn't a narrative every time Messi takes the pitch for Argentina with people wondering if he'll ever win a major tourney to make a stronger case for where he fits into the list of all-time great players? Have you watched the Classicos the last three years, where Madrid seems to be getting more and more bent out of shape over Barca beating them? I think a number of us have pointed out over the years how sports come up with more compelling narratives and storylines *naturally* than all the great and creative minds in pro wrestling can come up with. Why isn't it the same? One is fake morality, while the other is real? In the 1985 NBA Finals, the Lakers got revenge on the Celtics for a brutally painful loss in the 1984 Final where Magic had a horrible series. What more, the 1985 Final opened with the infamous (in LA) "Memorial Day Massacre": a 148-114 Boston win in the Garden where Jabbar was run raggad by Robert Parrish. In Game 2, the Lakers turned around the series, and Jabbar turned back the clock. Or how about the Bad Boy Pistons later in the decade: choking in 1987 to the Celtic in the Easter Conference Final, then getting through the Celtics the following year before choking in the 1988 NBA Final to the Lakers, then finally breaking through in 1989 to win it all... getting revenge over the Lakers. Or the 1991 Eastern Conference Final, and the story that led to it. Or Jordan in the 1992 Final turning Clyde Drexler into his personal bitch? Or Jordan in the 1993 Final showing who the real MVP? Or Joran against the Jazz a few years later when the voters decided to give the MVP to someone else? Aw hell... do we really want to remind Will of the storyline of David Robinson vs Hakeem in a certain Western Conference Final when the Dream seemed a little insulted that Robinson was the MVP? Wasn't there a little storyline this year about whether Albert would resign with the Cardinals... the best player of his generation... which ran all the way through the World Series. Wrestling storylines are laughable compared to real life sports. John

That would be after Tully destroyed the knee with the chairshot. Hell, Dusty didn't even quit to the figure four. He passed out. John

08/82: Kerry kicks the shit out of Ric, gets screwed out of the NWA Title by the NWA Ref 12/82: Ric bitches out to Hayes, Kerry takes cage door off skull, Ric still can't pin Kerry, Kerry even makes monster comeback! Wait... did I forget the dumb ass Ric Comes Off The Top Into The Claw spot? Ric exploits Kerry's fuck up (trusting Hayes to be the ref) by... still looking weaker than Kerry at the end of the match eating the discuss punch. I get the feeling that the only wrestlers folks think are weak bitch wrestlers are the Mulkey Brothers. John

Just in case Jericho got cold feet? John

I suspect that Buddy actually had good depth of offense for the era. Not saying Backlund/Race/Jumbo level of offense, but probably good heel level offense for the era where a lot of the good offense was working holds and using things that compliment it. Dropping an elbow on an arm that you're working over is in a sense a "move". I'm willing to bet that Buddy wasn't just punches and slapping on an arm bar staring off into space. John