jdw

It does look like Loss enjoyed Carny '95 quite a bit: Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/21/95) ****1/4 Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW 03/21/95) ***3/4 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 03/26/95) ****1/2 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/06/95) **** Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/08/95) ****3/4 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/12/95) ***3/4 Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/13/95) ****1/2 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/95) ***** I would be interested if he found some time between yearbooks to check out the other matches available from it and what his thoughts are: Commercial 03/21/95 Hansen vs Omori 03/21/95 Misawa vs Furnas Commercial 03/24/95 Akiyama vs Omori 03/24/95 Misawa & Kobashi & Hansen vs. Kawada & Taue & Baba Commercial 03/26/95 Akiyama vs Furnas 03/26/95 Kawada & Taue & Ogawa vs Baba & Hansen & Omori NTV: 03/30/95 Taue & Inoue vs. Misawa & Asako 03/30/95 Kobashi vs. Akiyama Bootleg 04/02/95 Kawada & Taue & Ace vs Misawa & Kobashi & Hansen (WPW Dome) Commercial 04/06/95 Ace & Kroffat & Eagle vs Hansen & Baba & Ogawa 04/06/95 Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori 04/06/95 Akira Taue vs Jun Akiyama Commercial 04/12/95 Kobashi & Akiyama & Shiga vs Ace & Kroffat & Eagle 04/12/95 Stan Hansen vs Doug Furnas 04/12/95 Toshiaki Kawada vs Takao Omori Special TV 04/13/95 Stan Hansen vs Jun Akiyama NTV 04/15/95 Hansen & Kobashi & Akiyama vs Kawada & Ace & Omori John

Hoback and I watched this as well today. Similar to Santo-Espanto, though we were a little less batshit for it. Not because it isn't a helluva match, but because it was later in the day. Santo-Espanto was the first lucha match of the day, and when you watch to very similar matches within a few hours of each other, the first is more likely to pop you. Santo-Espanto feels tighter, with the better run to the finish of the third fall. Both are probably due to the insane comfort level the two have from worker together forever and so often. Panther-Astro has the fun of seeing somone perhaps overly known for his highspots working a wonderful lucha title-style with the master. It's what we should expect: it's how title matches were worked at the time. But Astro=Highspots was overplayed so much back in the day that your brain might be somewhere else. So this has a really fun, semi-unexpected vibe (if your view coming in was screwed up like mine), while Santo-Espanto is pretty much 100% exactly what you'd expect out of the two if they're nailing their stuff. It's a waste to try to figure out which is better. Two great matches, just fantastic stuff. John

Watched this with Hoback today. We went batshit for it. Wonderful first fall with all that good mat wrestling, along with a good finish. Second fall transitioned into Espanto dominance, not quite as compelling, but they went through it quick. Third fall had a great run of near falls, good drama/doubt over who'd win it, just a load of action, a terrific finish with Santo jobbing, and a total class post match. Add on a crowd that loved Espanto winning. Fantastic match. John

"GSP just doesn't want to face me." -Nick Diaz coming to a screen near you John

I don't think _anyone_ believes Dave invented that. We all know it's the case, especially due to Vince's coked up brain. A recent example: the Punk = Greatest Angle Ever~! thread had a major subplot from almost the start that a lot of us thought the WWE would change whatever Master Punk Plan they had a half dozen times. I just added it in as a funny Daveism to play off Keith's running "WWE's creative team is so incompetent" line. John

Awesome. "WWE's creative team is so incompetent that I'm right even if I was wrong because I was right before I was wrong even if I was wrong about why I was going to be right because Vince keeps changing his mind." John

Someone needs to translate that... John

What happened to: "But Dave said today on Observer radio "at last word" the videos are for Undertaker and Bryan agreed. They sure didn't seem confident though." "Today" was like... earlier today. John

That would be the one from last week? Then today on WO-Radio he says it's Taker? My head is hurting... John

Someone should start a pool for when Dave says its Jericho. A bonus on whether he admits others had it right. John

I'm guessing you mean the one after the nodowa to the floor, and not the one in the ring? The cover in the ring is about two minutes before the finish. Then they kill Kobashi dead with the nodowa/backdrop, and it's only about 1:30. to the finish. Can't think that's a problem: a for 42 minute match where it's not inevitable who is going to win until 40 minutes in. They don't really start the process of killing Misawa until after he gets in the Tiger Driver on Kawada: Taue breaks it, stomps Misawa, blocks Misawa using the trusty elbows to Misawa up, pops Misawa in the Bad Eye, and then does a quick nodowa. They take time setting up the nodowa off the turnbuckle (Misawa is damn cool in covering the eye to sell it). I'm not sold that even then it's inevitable: Kawada is toasted, and when he hauls up Misawa, Misawa is in good enough shape to fire an elbow... which like the one against Taue is blocked (rather than being show Misawa is out of gas with weaker ones not doing enough damage like against Doc the prior July). So there's still a sense that Misawa isn't anymore out of it than Kawada is at that moment... Rolling Kick... they take a long time & struggle to finally hit the nodowa off the apron... Misawa sells the shit out of it... Kobashi crawls over to cover him with under 5 minutes left in the match. Maybe then... Except they're really slow selling thing given the epic war they've already had. Takes a while for Taue to get Kobashi off, and get Misawa in... and the "Misawa rolls back out of the ring" spot is still so fresh that when he rolls away from Kawada in the opposite direction to plop back out of the ring, you are remembering the last Budokan: Taue hit the nodowa off the apron. Taue got him back in. Misawa rolled out of the ring and survived. Misawa pinned Taue. It's Taue & Kawada rather than just Taue, so maybe there's a better shot. But Kobashi is actually *standing* on the floor in his own corner... so... ? When Kawada final rolls Misawa back in, gets the cover, Misawa kicks out... and when Kawada sets for the powerbomb, Misawa is able to move over to the ropes from a break. We've seen this story before? Kobashi breaks the next powerbomb attempt by grabbing the leg. We get the great visual of the nodowa on Kobashi and powerbomb on Misawa... and perhaps at *that* point how Misawa just rolls out it seems clear that he's fucked beyond the point at which he's been fucked before against these two. Even then, Misawa does do that little leg sweep to try to buy time. You get the similar "weak elbow" about a minute from the finish, which send Kawada down, but doesn't damage him like the usual trusty elbows... and Kawada drops him on his head pretty specifically because there's no one in the corner for Misawa to tag out to: makes the move there, brief gesture of reaching up even though he's at some distance, almost coming across as an instinctual move rather than like in 12/06/96 when he has his brain together and knows they're know Jun in the corner. One would have to go back and look at the 1/95 and 5/94 matches to see if there are other moments when Misawa reaches similar points that here might be seen as the point of no return. I'm not sure even while mapping this out just where that point is here. I guess I've seen that fucker come back too many times. It would get far, far, far worse over the next decade and a half where he'd willing eat all sorts of stuff from opponents before making the big comeback. :/ I kind of get the point you're making. But we also have a match where Misawa is still kicking the living shit out of Kawada more than 35 minutes in (the last Tiger Driver), and it's a while after that before he's in any situation that he hasn't gotten out of before. Damn... I'm not sure if he ever gets into a position until the 1-2-3 with these two that he hasn't gotten out of before because he's *always* gotten out of it with Kawada and/or Taue in the past when they've beaten the snot out of him. There is still the smallest of possibilities until Kawada & Taue give Kobashi the Nodowa Backdrop Combo that Kobashi will tag in and eat the fall. That's just 1:30 before the fall. Sorry if this is rambling, but re-watching the closing run on Youtube for the first time in 5+ years... I'm pretty stunned by how well they laid it out. I'm not the biggest fan of Kobashi's mugging in it, and am with those fan who boo it. But it's exceptional well laid out, and Kawada and Misawa sell the fuck out of everything, and New Taue is really nailing his spots and role perfectly. Kobashi does what he's suppose to do down the stretch, and does it well. Not my cup of given where Kobashi is at in 1995, whereas I think Jun's performance down the stretch in 12/06/96 is much more fitting of where he was... and perhaps not done as overly theatrical. I think perhaps the contrast for me to Misawa-Taue is *that* one has the inevitable finish from the time the bell rang: Misawa was going to beat Taue. :/ That's not really the case of 06/94, 06/95 or 12/96: in all of those there's doubt over who was going to win... until very late. I'll need to rewatch the whole thing at some point. The end run was better than I remember it... that's not *at all* what I expected... frankly 180 degrees the opposite from what I expect. Yow... John

Bix and Daniel from the WWF Thread: Is this better or roughly the same as their 04/22/86 MSG version of the match? It's essentially the same match, with the same beginning and end, but the Maple Leaf Gardens set-up means they can throw each over the barricade and use the ramp area to brawl, which makes the build to the bladejob a lot better than at Madison Square Garden. Savage's missed double axhandle happens later in the match and is arguably a bigger spot in Toronto. The first half of the match is probably better in New York, but the second half of Toronto fits the bill better and feels like more of a No DQ bout. There's also a difference in the way the matches are shot. The finishing stretch, for example, is shot from the front in New York and from the side in Toronto. When they use a front on shot in Toronto (and I'm assuming it's because of the ramp), it's from a far wider angle than in MSG, similar to the type of shot you see in handhelds. The upshot of all this is that the punch exchange, for example, is more interesting, if not better, in Toronto than it is in New York because of the different angle. The crowd seemed hotter in Canada as well. Re-reading that make me think it's time to fire up me WWF 80s watching. Happen to see where that's available... John

I think I've made the point before that most shoots need to be viewed with massive Bullshit Detectors on. There are times they lie simply to put themselves (or their pals) over. There are other times where they try to explain something and toss out either their distorted memory or a simply "This Might Work" explanation that sounds good at the time. Then when you actually think about the explanation, it doesn't make sense / doesn't pass the laugh test / doesn't fit into the timeline / etc. I've used the example of Konnan explaining why a match wasn't called a DQ after a pile driver was used: "You see... it was a No DQ Match." That actually *made sense* on why the pile driver didn't get a DQ. Where it fell down was: "But Carlos... the finish WAS a DQ." The finish of the match was a low blow that the ref called a DQ on. Wrestlers, like almost all of us, will toss out something that makes sense to them... even if in the end, it doesn't make sense. A lot of us get called on out bullshit. Great bullshitters... they often slide by for years... decades... a life time. I think the shoots are usually a bunch of con men spinning their bullshit. John

My recollection is that Ric doesn't care for smart marks anymore than anyone else from that era. John

Jesus Christ... _you're_ the one who made the quote. Go pull it, Matt. John

Paul wrote Magical Mystery Tour differently than When I'm Sixty Four. They're both Paul Songs from the Pepper Era. Neither of them would have fit onto With The Beatles. Neither of them fit into what he was working on just a *year* later when writing Hey Jude and Why Don't We Do It In The Road. Ric doesn't work that differently with Sam as he did with Jumbo. Different tracks on the same album. As far as the underlying structure of Ric's matches, we talked about that earlier in the thread: That's it. That is the underlying structure of Flair Matches. It changes ever so slightly when he's a face because he isn't bitching and stooging, thought he does sell his ass off to make the heels look good. But he's every bit as much in the Keeps Things Moving Along mode. There isn't any grand A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H structure to Ric's matches because he simply doesn't bother to think things through in those terms. He just moves the match along. Watch the Starcade '83 match with Race. It's not like Harley is someone who loves a ton of structure in his matches since he also tends to like to move things along, though he's more willing to lay around then Ric. There are times in the match where Harley looks like he wants to work on the obvious theme leading into the match. Ric... couldn't be fucking bothered, because Ric Has Stuff To Do. At which point it looks like Harley gives up on worrying about working the neck, and just does Stuff... and goes with the flow of the Stuff that Ric wants to do, since Ric was the face and this whole show was built around Ric by Ric's promoter so... fuck it. Another example: the beloved World Wide Wrestling match between Barry and Ric. I remember loving the shit out of it when watching it air in 1987. I've enjoyed Barry's work even more since then, and he struck me as one of the few big guys who was more than willing to sell his ass off to make heels look good. Totally buzzed getting it on the Flair dvd, first thing I wanted to watch. The thing that struck me with rewatching it at that time was how formless it was. Just a hell of a lot of killing time with Stuff randomly thrown together. Was it all done solidly? Sure. Did any of it add up to more than one point (Barry is better than Ric)? Not really. Was there any nice long stretches of Flair control where he did interesting stuff? Not... really. It's just Stuff... a lot of Stuff... keeping things relatively moving along since they're going 40+... but no real focused structure and themes. A contract would be the 02/11/89 Rick Rude vs. Tito Santana in Boston. I'm not pimping that as a Great Match, since it's not. But it's a fairly well structured and laid out match (before they get to the typical shitty WWF 80s Finish). If one is trying to do a thesis on Wrestling Structure, that's really a better one to look at than the random shit going on in Flair's brain. Flair, and Flair Matches, aren't great because he came up with a Flair Structure. It's because he Did A Lot Of Shit in his matches, Kept Things Moving Along, sold the motherfuck out for the faces, and was dramatic and charismatic. We'd be stretching things to say that Ric topped to tease big babyface comebacks.... because Ric was feeding babyfaces comebacks All Freaking Match Long. John

I'll quote it again: Now I don't think Ric tells the story that he was a 16-22 year old "kid" who watched wrestling like jdw, Loss, Bix, the Two Phils, Jerry and Cross Face Chicken Wing in the sense of Smart Fan Analyzing Wrestling: "Stevens did a really good job of selling for Robinson tonight, but I really missed the face first flop because that always seals the deal on Stevens really bitching out for the faces." -Kid Ric Flair Does that at all sound like how Young Ric Flair would watch wrestling matches? Or is that 180 degrees opposite of how Ric would watch it, given his (and nearly every other old timer's) dislike for hardcore fans over thinking ever aspect of wrestling? I go back to trying to draw the link between: #1 - what in Stevens/Buddy's act that Stevens/Buddy could have dropped out that disappointed Ric #2 - what in Flair's act he kept doing because dropping it would disappoint what *he* views as fans Did Ric back as a kid really think Stevens not doing the face first flop was disappointing? Or would it have been something like the Bombs Away? So what are Ric's equiv of the Bombs Away? * Figure Four * Chop, Chop and More Chops * Eternal Suplex * Face First Flop * Ric Tossed Off The Top * Ric Flips Into The Corner I'm guessing that Ric really, really, really doesn't think that the last three are his equiv of the Bombs Away and that fans would be disappointed if they weren't in matches. They simply are things that he knows make the faces look good and got pops from the fans. More likely the first three, more so the first two. Again... we need to stop thinking that Ric as a "kid" viewed wrestling like we do. We're hardcore fans who overthink this shit. Ric doesn't... not even when he got into the business and it was his job to think about the shit. John

I think he did as well. Along the lines of another very good match between the two, but not really replacing the MSG version of the No DQ if you're doing a feud arc. John

I buy the larger theme of Flair's point: * He does stuff to pop the fans even if it doesn't make sense. I don't buy the justification of it, which others (like Dave) have grabbed onto like Linus' blanky to defend Ric's shit not making sense and him doing the same shit over and over and over again: * sad little kid who did see Stevens/Rogers to some signature thingy in a match Seriously... think two second about it. So Stevens doesn't do the Bombs Away in a match and poor little Ricky is disappointed. So he makes sure he always does his equiv so that fans don't get disappointed in him: Ric Gets Toss Off The Top "Does this make logic?" -Konnan * * * * * * * * * * On Jerry laying out Ric's different Formula's... you're putting too much thought into it. *Ric* doesn't put that much thought into his work. He doesn't structure his matches. He's talked about winging it out there. Flair's Formula is just doing shit, keep things moving along, make the face look good, pop the fans. John

BTW... I like the Beatles post, and thought Daniel's response was pretty solid. Not pimping it, but usually when reading stuff I tossed up from several years back, there's stuff I cringe over. Thought that did a pretty good job getting across why one could be bored the hell out of Flair matches while acknowledging they're great. John

Because Ric said he was a Kid when he was disappointed in Buddy or Stevens: How Ric was marketed isn't really relevant. He claims he didn't want to disappoint the fans because he didn't do something they were expecting, which we can include getting tossed off the top. I'm not buying it. Ric liked that it got a pop and kept doing it. Earlier in the thread there was a funny comment (by Keith, I think) about how Ric comes across as more than a bit dump in the shoot. I chalk this up as another one: Ric coming up with his "reason" for why he did the same shit all the time, thinking it made him sound heroic ("I did it for the fans!") without being a mercenary ("I do what works."), and really didn't think two seconds about it. A few folks over time had agreed with him who were predisposed to agree with him (say Madden and/or Dave), and he said it a few more times... and probably now even believes it himself. John

#1 - You and I and Bix and Dylan and other Smart Fans might enjoy Ric bitching and stooging and bumping and be disappointed if Flair Tossed Off The Top wasn't in a match. #2 - A *kid* who is a Flair Fan doesn't think on that level. For Flair's claim about Buddy to be true and valid, #2 would need to be true, not #1. A kid wouldn't miss Flair getting tossed off the top. Even a non-Flair Fan couldn't miss it, as long as Sting was kicking Flair's ass in some other way. The reality? Getting tossed off the top got a pop. It was an easy spot for Ric (and other guys like Harley who did it). So he kept doing it. Someone "missing it" had nothing to do with it. I'm really stupefied anyone ever bought it when Ric said it. To me honest, I never bothered pointing out that Ric wasn't making sense because I thought it was pretty obvious. It's not like we're talking about fans missing Stan's Lariat or his Longhorn Yell. John

What's strange about his claim is that you would think he means some of the nonsensical stuff. I mean, what kids after a Ric Flair Match would tell their old man: "I was so disappointed, Father, that Flair didn't get tossed off the top rope." Or... "Oh Father... why didn't Flair get shoved down by the referee tonight? I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight." Or... "Papa, why didn't Sting throw Flair into the corner so that he could to his flip over the turnbuckle?" Or... "Daddy, why didn't Flair fall on his face tonight?" Or... "Sir... why did Flair not beg off in the corner tonight? When Ric is a bad guy, his matches always make more sense when he is begging in the corner to the Good Guy." I mean... does what Flair said make a bit of fucking sense when you slow down to think about it? What exact things that Flair does in the ring that, if they were absent, make a *kid* disappointed? What Flair over time got rid off were things that a Kid who was a Flair Fan (i.e. rooting for him to win) would miss: * a few more suplexes to damage the opponent * working over the leg more to set up the figure four * the pile driver Honestly, do you really think kids who were Kid Flair Fans would be all torn that they didn't get to see Ric thrown off the top? Frankly, what Buddy Rogers fans would have given a shit if he didn't beg off? Ric's just talking out of his ass trying to explain why he did the same shit over and over and over again. One wishes that he would have manned up long ago and responded: That's straight forward and truthful. John

Looking at Dan's 1990 list, that appears to be the case. The only ones that fit before he left were: 01/03/90 Genichiro Tenryu vs Ivan Koloff 01/28/90 Genechiro Tenryu vs Isao Takagi 03/04/90 Genechiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen vs Terry Gordy & Steve Williams 04/10/90 Genechiro Tenryu vs Randy Savage Dates may be off just a bit. I do recall Dan was missing 2-3 shows out of his set, and one of them was before Tenryu left. I suspect Tenryu Fans will love the Takagi match, especially if they saw what led to it. Probably not enough to think it's a MOTYC... Well, he does that on occasion. That would be what I was thinking of. I think that's why I've gotten tired of ranking matches. I love Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue. But there are 8 of them on tape. If I had to pitch one of those to keep Fans vs Malenko & Kikuchi, I wouldn't give it a second thought. If I had to pitch a second of them to keep Kawada-Albright, I wouldn't have a tough time at all. If I had to pitch a third one to keep the 11/93 Misawa & Kobashi vs Hansen & Baba, it would be an easy choice. I could live with 5 of them: 6/93, 12/93, 05/94, 06/95 & 10/95. If the cut was another match that I thought was really good, I probably could easily carve off 10/95... and folks know how highly I think of that. If you're looking for MOTYC? Sure. But then again, I don't think Danny vs RVD is a MOTYC. It's just a fun match, similar to me as watching Hansen vs Williams in the 1994 battle it out for the top gaijin spot. Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and to a lesser degree Taue were the MOTYC workhorses. I think we all knew that. John