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If we're going by 1993, I suspect that I'm less annoyed by the STF crawl than most other selling of submissions, simply because it does result in finishes. Contrast it with other submissions in pro-style matches in NJPW, AJPW, WCW and the WWF (in a sense, the "peer group" for Chono and NJPW). On one extreme we have Bret's Sharpshooter. While it doesn't work all the time, it pretty much was his only true finisher at that point. Of course he got typical WWF-style schoolboy finishes and Conference Finishes and the like. But by 1993, that pretty much was his finisher when he was going over with one of "his finishers". Choshu's Scorpion would be up there on that level: he doesn't have those annoying schoolboys, but he'd also win matches with the Riki Lariat, so he had at least two signature finishers. In the other extreme, you probably have Flair's Figure Four. It's Ric's signature finisher and in matches that he wins is the finisher... well... did he beat any non-jobber with it at all in 1993? Maybe the Hollywood Blonds match? No, that was a Pin and a DQ. Where does Chono's rank on that list? I suspect pretty high. Looking at just the matches that he wins and he's the one getting the pin/submission, I'd think that the STF gets a good % of those wins. And it's not like Chono doesn't get wins. Misawa's Face Lock? Can't remember any win of note with it in 1993 (or 1994). I don't even recall if he won a tv six-man with one. Kawada's Stretch Plum? Yikes. Any "submissions" that Kobashi, Taue, Hansen, Doc... most anyone in AJPW did were just throwaways. This was NJPW before Mutoh went figure four. Hash didn't use a signature sub. I've blocked a lot of Sasaki out of my mind... I recall at some point he tried to get a submission over (and think his wife riffed on it a time or two)... just don't recall if it as by 1993. Hase? Eh. Fujinami had the Dragon Sleeper, probably up there with the STF. Gaijin? Juniors? STF would be decently high on the list. I can't knock the struggle too much because it's what all the submissions had/have. The difference is that Chono's actually worked enough that there was "drama", especially late in a match where the result was in doubt. People bought it. John

You're right, it was Kobashi who ate it and sld the shit out of it in the earlier six-man. On the one in the TC, they way they had it hit (Misawa kicking the ropes in some way if I recall) and the way they *both* sold it (seem to recall Doc selling the impact) gave a story of "this one isn't like the ones in the six-man and the Doc-Kobashi". Whereas the one in the title change the next year was pretty much "holy shit he finally nailed one on Misawa!" vibe, with Misawa only surviving the pin by falling out of the ring, being "out" on the floor, needing Doc to even get back in the ring (Greatest Wada Moment Of All-Time*), and having nothing behind his attempts to Misawa Up before getting put to bed. I thought the first TC came across closer to block + dangerous backdroppy + Doc damaged rather than Misawa Just Got Dropped Straight Down On His Head And Is Fucked!!! John * Wada signaling to a still slightly out of it (and selling his ass off) Doc to come out and get him: symbolically a "you ain't winning the TC via a COR... it's not just the AJPW anymore as Baba-san has clean finishes to all the title matches now."

I thought the storyline was that the backdrop driver wasn't fully hit (Misawa being able keep it from fully being hit), thus he wasn't Killed Dead (as he had been in the six-man earlier in the series) and could come back. Misawa often came back "too easily" relative to say Kawada. A bit of his persona. Never quite as harshly as say Super Shawn Comebacks, but it usually was an element. Kawada is literally kicking the shit out of Misawa in the corner down the stretch of 6/3/94 and Misawa starts blocking them... and Misawas Up. John

He'd gone as far as he could in the WWF, and this was in the days where where Ted could make more money while working less in All Japan than in the WWF given where he'd fallen to. That changed in the Nitro era where even mid-carders were making good money. I recall Furnas talking about having an exact figure in mind that he needed to make from a US promotion to make him give up the AJPW gig. It wasn't until the Nitro era where the Big 2 were even throwing around enough money to get a mid-level AJPW guy. You'd see guys make the move, but often it was people who had dreams of making it Really Big. Furnas was more practical than that. With Ted, he'd already made it big and was on the way down. The mindset was that at the age of 39 in 1993, he had a number of years left in AJPW as a main event partner with Stan, who at that point was five years older and doing better than he ever had. I think what Ted didn't know is that AJPW had changed a lot since 1987, the style passed him by, and it was a lot more physically brutal. There's part of me that wishes at least one of the two title matches between these teams made it to the set in full. Folks should see just how badly time passed him by. It's been ages since I watched the matches (and I think there had a six-man or two on the next series), and it pretty much was "great" whenever Stan and Kawada were together, and largely very noticable "not great" or worse most of he time when the two of them weren't opposite of each other. Ditch might host the two title matches somewhere. John

I think by that point we had five years of "Liger" matches and finishes to study and recall. Was there another finish that was remotely like that? I'm talking along the lines of the WP-Sasuke finish in the Final. That one wasn't a regular finish of WP's matches, but it certainly was consistent with a lot of finishes we'd seen out of WP in New Japan. The Liger-Sasuke wasn't. Going forward, I can't recall a specific time where Liger used that finish again in a big match. He booked the Super J Cup, and almost certainly laided out the finish of his own matches in it. So if he thought it was a great or cool planned finish, it's likely we would have seen it again in 1995 or 1996 or 1997... and I'm drawing a blank we someone *blew* a spot in one of his big matches leading pretty straight to the finish. There are some people on this board who've watched a lot of MPro and Sasauke's pre-MPro matches. Since it wasn't a "Liger Finish", then would have to be a "Sasuke Finish" if it were *planned*. Has anyone see a Sasuke match with that finish prior to 4/16/94? Or one Sasuke booked in MPro? We've all see a heck of a lot more blown flying spots in the past 15 years than we typically say in 1992-96. We've also seen some intentionally blown ones, which kind of come across pretty damn stagey rather than fucked up. We kind of know the really screwed up spots by now. Doesn't Liger-Sasuke looka hell of a lot more like 1/93 Liger-UD or the sloppy stuff in Liger-Tigermoto or Kikuchi blowing the spot against the Fantastics? John

( a ) I want to be entertained ( b ) I don't mind entertainment that makes me think a bit / reflects some thought could have been put into it ( c ) I really hate feeling like the wrestlers are trying way to hard to wrap a hand around my wrestling cock and play to what they think my wrestling fantasies are Generico-Ricochet entertained me. Generico-Ricochet made me think a bit with it's Established Star vs Newcomer/Rising Star in the promotion storyline. Generico-Ricochet didn't feel like they were trying to hard to play to me or a specific type of hardcore in general. They had their match, and sure the highspots in general play to indy fans, but it's not like they were doing going over the top with what they were doing. John

Art Barr's obit talked about his statutory rape issue and his issues. Curt Hennig's had some stuff that was unflattering, though perhaps Dave thought they were "wrestling stories" that he could run with. The Pillman piece was pretty brutal. That Savage didn't go back was a topic Dave covered. He's talked about it on his boards, and on his radio show. But he's unwilling to put it in the WON. John

The problem: Dave has asked. And it's clear from everyone he's talked to that they "believe" it, and thus Dave "believes" it. We're past the point of Dave asking someone about it. If Dave truly believes it, even in the confused "Nothing else makes sense" basis, then it's something he should have dealt with explicitly in the bio. Dave claims he's heard it from enough people that it's clearly well sourced at this point that he could say: "The story from many people within the business, including many who've worked with the WWE over the years, is..." Report the story. Dave has done as much to keep it alive as anyone else, so he should have some balls as a reporter and report it. John

In this week's WON, Dave was again in "Nothing else makes sense" mode... though in both issues copped out of putting in "published" writing what he seems to think is the reason. It really comes across as a cop out. John

This is a "star" leaving the company. And he wouldn't be making him work for free. Just dock him that PPV/Mania bonus. Whatever his normal pay rate, give it to him. Hall was suspended from Feb 20 to April 7. His last match was the same card as Nash's: So instead of 2/20 through 4/7, make it 4/1 (day after Mania) through the end of his contract. Same difference. And if he comes back positive, then dock him the PPV bonus. I'm almost 100% certain that the WWF's fairly one sided contracts would have been worded in such a way that you could do it. John

Simple enough though: * don't tell him prior to Mania * having him piss in the jar at Mania * suspend him at the tapings the next night based on the earlier test * if his Mania result comes back positive (of course it would), then dock him the Mania payoff That's if you're worried about the payoff. The tricky part is that if you squash Ramon on the undecard, just how crybaby is Nash going to be in working his job to Taker at Mania. But you kind of deal with that. John

Hall flunked a dozen dope tests over the years. He gave notice, so Vince suspended him as punishment. This was after Leon was already in (i.e. the Rumble debut). They could have as easily squashed him at Mania and *then* suspended him for the balance of his time in the WWF. John

I agree they should have done it eventually at a IYH PPV, but Vader should have killed a JTTS at WM. I remember how they built Ludvig Borga at SummerSlam 93 by having him kill Marty Jannetty. Jannetty made him look like a god. Vader should have killed a guy who could make him look huge and brutal, like Bob Holly, instead of feuding with a fat guy from the get-go. Of course, him being thrown into a random 6 man in which he had to sell for old Jake Roberts and bump for Ahmed Johnson made things even worse. Way to make him non-special already. What was the reason for turning it into a 6 man ? Was that because Yoko's health was getting bad (getting way too fat for his own good) at this point ? Why bother with a JTTS at Mania? WrestleMania XII - Anaheim, CA - Arrowhead Pond - March 31, 1996 (15,855; 12,909 paid) Vader, Owen Hart, & Davey Boy Smith (w/ Jim Cornette) defeated Ahmed Johnson, Jake Roberts, & Yokozuna (w/ Mr. Fuji) at 13:11 when Vader pinned Roberts with a running Vader Bomb followed by a Vader Bomb off the middle turnbuckle as Roberts attempted to hit the DDT on an interfering Cornette; had Yoko's team won, Yoko would have received 5 minutes alone in the ring with Cornette In Your House “Good Friends…Better Enemies” - Omaha, NE - Civic Center - April 28, 1996 (9,563; 8,273 paid; sell out) Vader (w/ Jim Cornette) pinned Razor Ramon with a sit-down splash after blocking an attempt at the Razor's Edge and hitting a backdrop at 14:49; prior to the bout, footage was shown of Vader injuring Yokozuna's leg three weeks earlier on Raw; after the match, Dok Hendrix interviewed Vader & Cornette at ringside during which he announced Vader would face Yokozuna at the following month's In Your House, with Vader then arguing with Cornette over the announcement (Scott Hall's return TV match after a 2-month absence and his last TV appearance for nearly 6 years) Hall is leaving the promotion and they have it take 15 minutes for Vader to beat him? Vader should have squashed Hall at Mania. Singles match, quick, kill him dead. Then you never see Hall again until he shows up on Nitro. John

Not really accusing you. A number of time people tossed "Top 10" at you. You came back by saying you hadn't said top 10. What you said needed to be made clear in this thread. I quoted what you said, in full. You were explicit that you think they're Top 20. On Top 10, you weren't as explicit though people could easily read it as such. Hedge / waffle / etc Lord knows we all do it. "I don't know if Backlund is a great worker. I will say he was a good worker." That's a hedge by me, one I'd cop to. I don't know if Backlund was "great", "excellent", "Top 10" or "Top 20". But it also wasn't what I ever worried about arguing. Getting people to see "good" seemed like a big positive. PG-13 "Top 10" or "Top 20"? Does it really matter? I suspect getting people to the "Damn... PG-13 was a really great team" level would be a big positive. John

Oh hell... Heel In Peril in the WWF 80s Thread: http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=2937#2937 http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=3222#3222 http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=3258#3258 http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=9193#9193 I've barely scratched the surface of Golden Tag Era matches, saving them for the end of the process. Heel In Peril was so noticeable in WWF Tag matches in the era that it was a breath of fresh air when things were even 50/50, let alone FIP-centric matches. John

This is the second time you've said that, so here's what you said: You make it a hedge, but it's pretty easy for people to read into it that you were thinking they're Top 10. You could clear it up: "I think PG-13 is somewhere between 11-20." John

Beniot. There really is no one else at that level, to the degree that even suggesting someone else is #1 would feel false. :/ That's something of a Kill Thread thing to post, so perhaps it's better to retitle the thread: "Big Falls From Grace". It's an interesting concept for a thread... John

I suspect we can watch available film from the 50s and 60s where they were doing that in New York... and not because the Fargos brought it there. It's an old school spot. John

That hits it far clearer than I did. "utility guy" is perhaps fairer than "filler" as well. John

Didn't say it came out of nowhere, and am familar with the earlier JCP feud (and enjoyed it). But... Ronnie was something of a "filler" opponent. Not as much filler as the Brad Armstrong was, but not really top tier earlier in JCP. Nikita, Maggie, Dusty then Morton... those seemed like more focused, intense, bigger pushed feuds in that 1985-86 time frame. With Flair you always juggled who he was booked against because some place like Greensboro or Charlotte would get the first run of it, but other cities could be *months* away from getting it, especially in the expansion period. So they often had multiple people warmed up to go against Flair, and generally always had Dusty they could throw against him when breaking in a new city. Ronnie felt like something belo that. I thought all of the angle worked fairly well. I suspect I like the Flair-Jimmy better than most at the time since I was just watching it on TV, and thought the TV aspect was interesting: new opponent rather than the Usual Suspects, and Jimmy turning face felt like something new as well. Didn't seem like Crockett's fans enjoyed it, as it wasn't a big draw. I didn't see any of the matches at the time other than the cage match. Ronnie was a solid extension of that, and the TV aspect of it was very good: some of Flair's best stuff, even the campy Date With Precious. I don't know how much it added. Dusty tended to have Dusty's Guys and he tended to take care of them. So he would have been around through the end of 1988 (frankly was there most of the year). I don't know what his relationship with Flair was, but if he got in with him he might have been able to get a decent multi-year contract from Turner. It's just a matter of getting there. He didn't last all that long in the WWF. So it didn't add a *ton* of years to his career. As pointed out, he was essentially job fodder by 1990. John

What.The.Hell?! Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights? I don't think he was. He just listed teams that he thought were better than PG-13, and put numbers next to them so that we could see there were more than 20 of them. You're reading more into smkelly's list than was there. John

I seem to recall that Doc wandered off before they could do anything. Not that they had much planned with it. But I seem to recall him working into December, then had issues and wandered off. He came back in March 1988, got a build up to face Flair, and had a short rather forgotten series of matches with him. I'd forgotten that Doc didn't go Varsity Club until November 1988 after Steiner turned face. Damn, why in my head did I think that Mike & Rick & Doc were briefly together? The Tag Titles they just blew off. Actually, the Sheep had the belts at the time, not the LE. I don't think they would have wanted the LE to lose to Arn & Tully prior to Starcade since they were doing Nikita-Terry. But it also was kind of dumb to even have them drop the titles to the Sheep at that point. Just hold it, then merge them after Starcade. John

I didn't think it was a matter of no one else wanting it. I always thought, even at the time long before reading the WON, that: * they wanted Flair to challenge & regain at Starcade * they didn't want to sacrifice any of their young babyfaces The first we all agree on. But I thought, and still believe, that they had long term plans for Barry and soon-to-be-turned Lex. Sting at that time hadn't blown up, so didn't count yet. I think in Dusty's mind, Barry winning and then dropping it back would have left him like Tommy Rich and Kerry: former NWA Champs who couldn't get back up to that level, and worse get dropped back down a few spots on the cards as someone else challenges Flair. There's room for Dusty in that roll, since with the book he could always give himself something (as he did at that Starcade). But Barry dropping into the middle of the cards after winning the NWA Title makes Barry look really bad. It is one of the problems with a closed promotion: what do you do with guys after they've hit a peak like that until you re-peak them. They kind of took care of Lugar after his 1988 feud with Flair by giving him the US title basically forever (I exagerate... but it was pretty much all of 1989 through mid-1991). Sting was a bit lost after dropping out of the NWA Title picture in early 1988, but they were also a bit thin in top faces so by default he continued to look like one. He got lucky to have Muta come along in 1989, then getting drawn into the Flair-Funk feud. He also got a bit lucky since they flipped Lex, so that cleared one top face out of the way. The WWF had ever so slightly better luck with it in that era because of their split crews: the #2 and #3 faces didn't always have to be on the same card as Hogan. The #2 or #3 heels didn't always have to be on the same card as say Savage, and in a sense Hogan's Opponent was something of a #1-A Heel in the promotion while on that run. In Crockett, there were a lot of guys who got runs with Flair that never really felt like anything other than an Opponent: Brad, Jimmy Garvin.. and frankly Ronnie in 1987. He didn't feel like a bigger face than say Dusty, or Nikita, or Barry. Anyway, I've gone slightly adrift here. But I've always thought, regardless of what they might say now in work-shot-interviews, that they simply didn't want to sacrifice anyone else. Flair had good matches with Garvin over the years, they always tended to work for the crowds in the buildings... though admittedly weren't big draws. Flair knew how to work a feud with him, and it was a natural storyline extension of Flair-Jimmy. John

I suspect there wasn't an "NWA Vote" after the Kerry-Flair title changes. Flair-Dusty and Flair-Garvin were Crockett moves, and Flair-Steamboat was under Turner. If there was a vote, it was a meaningless rubber stamp one. Crockett fully controlled the title by 1986. John