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What did people think of Dave's Thanksgiving piece? Other than obits and HOF bios, he hasn't done too many pro wrestling historical pieces in the past couple of years. Was the buzz on this positive? John

Anyone have the WON MOTY Award results listing for 1996 handy? John

I suspect "taking". I get get the overall concept of the item: Cena granting another 30 wishes. John

I've actually been to entertaining ones. Last madatory one I took, we were laughing our asses off through. Of course I've been to plenty of boring ones. John

Yeah, Al was a pretty fun, relatively level headed guy back in the early/mid-90s. But the business tends to drive everyone nuts eventually, so it's not a surprise. John

Could be the ACL. At some point, they clearly did get it right. Despite slowing down a ton in his Texas Outlaws run, he wouldn't have been able to be in the ring if he had no ACL. Decompsed is strange. Perhaps more likely that he just tore the new one, which is in a sense shredding it. Given Barry's track record, he probably didn't bust his hump rehabbing it and wasn't in prime condition/shape come the 1994 match. It's strange that it took him two years to come back from the second one. I don't even think pros are out for 24 months on a knee. Perhaps he was ready earlier, but he'd burned a few bridges. John

Maybe he's mixxing two things up: Knee replacement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_replacement ACL reconstruction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruc..._reconstruction ACL reconstruction uses cadaver tendon. Knee replacement tends to be plastic/metal, and has been for ages. I wonder if he had ACL reconstruction, after the 1993 injury, then blew it up in the 1994 match. ACL is of course pretty hardcore: http://www.nba.com/features/abdenour_aclessay.html I doubt Barry is the only one to have it in wrestling, but am too lazy to look it up. ACL reconstruction --> knee blowing up when coming back, that sounds odd. Barry did have a track record of short of half assing his way through dealing with injuries. On the ACL, I suspect there were/are a lot of common doctors that the wrestlers use for such stuff. Maybe less common than starting in say the mid-90s when people more regularly went out for surgery, but there were people who had surgery back then. I want to say that the WON had an item after Slambore of Barry re-injuring the knee, and that was the reason the match sucked. In the other direction, Barry did injury the knee prior to dropping the title to Flair in 1993. My recollection is that he went instantly on the shelf until working the match to drop the title, then went back on the shelf. John

Which Flair match is he talking about? The title change? John

This is a bit interesting when pointing to 1993. The Barry-Scorp is looked on favorably. I know that OJ likes another Barry-Scop sprint that was on TV. There's a Barry-Regal is getting praise on the 1993 Set. There's a rematch from Starcade early in the year that Loss liked. Folks seem to like the Barry-Steamer from January as well. It's somewhat too bad that the Barry-Arn from Slambore didn't make the set... not really because it's a Great~! match, but it's PPV NWA Title match between the two and interesting to see what they'd be up to. Not that long either as it was a shade over 10 minutes. Not saying Barry was off the hook in 1993 as I haven't watched all the TV since way back then, and the TV often could be pretty boring and/or screwy when tossing out matches that look good on paper only to have the run-ins or screw job 3-4 minutes into it. But a pair of Scorp matches, the tag title rematch, the Regal match and the Steamer match... not a terrible start to a year before the injury hit. I'm pretty sure that there would be more Barry on the 1992 set, and he'll get some praise there. He was right around his 33rd birthday when he blew the hell out of his knee. I'd tend to agree that Barry never was much of one to push himself hard on injuries and other stuff. Perhaps he was smart with his money and didn't have to bust his ass to come back, but that doesn't sound right. He didn't seem 100% when he game back, and then vannished again after that. Basically 3 years of not doing much of anything other than the one match with Flair in 1994. Really one of the great, bizzaro mysteries of the 90s. John

I'm stunned that someone didn't drag the All In The Family riff over here. John

Obviously Clash 1 was one of the cool high points of tv wrestling in the 80s. MX-Fans was a blast, and holds up. Lex & Barry vs Arn & Tully had that amazing pop for the title change, and remained an entertaining match the last time I watched it. I'm less of a fan of Flair-Sting, but it was a big contrast to what the Evil WWF was doing that same day. Flair-Steamer on Clash 4 was epic. Those two are Usual Suspect answers. I wasn't as high on Flair-Funk as others at the time, and it's not really clicked anymore with me since. I enjoyed Steamboat returning for the tag title change at the time, I'm trying to remember the last time I watched it... one of those you worry about holding up because it was something of a "moment" that worked so well. Other less "big" things that I enjoyed: Lex's matches with Tommy Rich and Pillman in 1989. The Rich match was a massive disappointment on paper when announced, but ended up being way better than I expected. I really enjoyed Clash 18 at the time as a contrast between what WCW did well and what they didn't do well. Steiners vs Vader & Hughes was interesting. Pillman & Bagwell vs Taylor & Smothers was three pretty damn solid guys working around the overly pushed Bagwell in a Nitro-style match. Cactus vs Hammer was a watchable Cactus match. The top two matches focused on the Dangerous Alliance, loaded up with good workers. At the time you kind of wished they both went 15+ minutes and that the crap part of the card below (Badd-Morton, News-Page, Freebirds vs Armstrong & Josh, Vegas-Rich) was largely pitched. Instead, you probably could pop that show in now and treat it as a proto-Nitro. All the big stars of the promotion are on there. You don't really get a major PPV lengthed match. Guys try to get to their spots in the limited time they have. The good is pretty watchable. The bad is forgettable and you wonder why it's there, other than Creative thinking they need to roll a ton of stuff of there. John

That makes better sense. Didn't know that the WWE picks up rehab on former workers. I guess that's a positive, though I might be annoyed if I were a former worker who was clean but needed some other health coverage and the WWF didn't cover it. John

I read it this way: WWE officials once gave him the “rehab or fired” ultimatum + WWE would cover the cost of Hardy’s rehab if he opted to go that route at that time Didn't read it that the WWE would pick up the tab now, or that anyone in TNA thinks the WWE would. John

My thought at the time, and something we talked with folks in Japan about, was that the fanbase shifted towards more 20-something aged fans who had money to spend in an era of increased consumer spending vs savings. The shows that I went to had the majority of fans in that age group, with fewer older fans and kids that you'd see in camera shots of the 80s (and earlier). This is a little similar to what we saw in the Monday Night Wars era in the US: while the promotions still had kids and families coming, there was a pretty clear shift to where it was massively more popular with late teens into their twenties than we'd seen in the Rock 'n' Wrasslin era. That fan base (in terms of the age group) in both the US and in Japan kind of moved on from the peak era. AJW transitioned from teeniebopper/girls fan base to a lot of guys going to the shows I went to... the majority. That was a chunk of the growth of the promotion after it went into decline when the Crush Girls era ended. The "boom" was drawing in guys, whereas guys in the 80s wouldn't have gone to AJW to that degree. And the guys were in the same age group as the majority of guys going to AJPW and NJPW and all the other different promotions that I saw shows of. I was there in 1995 and 1996, which was probably "post boom" or more just as the boom was starting to come off the peak. Pretty much everyone but New Japan had hit their peak, with the possible exception of RINGS as Tamura + Death of UWFi gave them a good run for a year or so. That said, I did see pretty good sized house shows for the promotions that were pretty representative of what their Tokyo fanbase was at the time. John

I don't think the WWE is drawing close to what the WWF was drawing back when wrestling was hot. John

This depends. At Staples, every empty seat in our location were season/package holders didn't show that night. They were Premier Seats, and you don't buy them for just the Kings. The "lower level" empty seats are also very much season packages as well. They go $200+ a pop, and aren't given away as freebies, and are very much high in demand and sold. Center court on those are for much more than $200 a pop. It depends on the city. No one goes to Hawks games in Atlanta, so their "attendance" is wacky in terms of what gets sold. In Los Angeles, everyone wants to go to the Lakers, few of us can afford it, and those than can want to lock in their Laker tickets in addition to other "nights out on the town" even if it means they eat Clippers and Kings games. You can get the tickets section we sat in off Stubhub: for the Kings they go in the $90 to $130 range as people who aren't hockey fans want to dump them. For the Lakers against Nuggets, it looks like $369. Lakers-Clips it looks like $400+. Same game, lower level right infront of us goes from $450-$1165, and they'll probably find some high roller with a boner to go. When the Kings say a "sellout", the overwhelming majority of those seats are sold. It's a major reason why Sterling is willing to be the little sister of Staples: he gets a cut of those premier and luxary box and other package deals. It's almost certainly a smaller cut than the Lakers, the real anchor of the building, get. But it's more than he'd be getting down at the Pond if he actually had to rely on being good to sell tickets, especially the high roller tickets. John

Hell... I've forgotten about that. Of course Ric refusing to job to Lex the first time Herd wanted to change the title at a house show, then refusing to job to Lex at the Bash without a fat contract extension (when already having a year left on his contract), then refusing to job to Barry... that was Okay because it was Ric. I'll grant that Ric had creative control, so he was largely within his rights. On the other hand, it wasn't that he was unwilling to job the title at the Bash for creative reasons. It was about money and getting paid off for doing the job. But that kinda got forgotten for quite a few years, or only remembered with Ric being the hero of the story and Herd being the idiot villan. Sure, Herd was an idiot for the first house show suggestion. The stuff in mid-1991... probably not. John

I've seen the same thing with a lariat. Shitty match, no one cares, throw out a few of those and no one cares. I'd agree with Loss' general point: it is one of the "safe" spots that almost always picks the crowd up. John

Just rewatched that one, and you're right, it's longer than I remembered. It was seven minutes. And that's including a jump-start at the beginning, and one minuted devoted to a camel clutch. As a match, it's no better than average. If it weren't for all the blood, nobody would remember this one at all. And the fact that all the other matches on that card were so godawful probably didn't hurt its reputation either. For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql4YEwJ6n4k There are some nice things in there, at times balance out by cringey: Cringe: Sid standing up rather and being "forced up" to set up the fall away spot Good: the fall away spot with Sid on Goldberg's shoulders is a good visual Good: Goldberg's punches and Sid's surprisingly decent selling of most of the blows Cringe: Sid's terrible punches trying to fire back Good: brawling around the ring early Cringe: more than normal daylight with the three shots Sid takes into the ring steps I'm not a fan of Sid planting his skull into the metal to make it look good... but his hands and arms were positioned to block the metal, so he could at least have gotten his head to the back of his hands and arms. Cringe: toss into the corner, Goldberg waiting around for Sid to get that he's suppose to come up, Sid finally getting he's suppose to come out and runs into Goldber's clothesline somewhere around the nipples. That's not even mentioning the Sid initially seemed to *not* want to get tossed from the opposite corner into the far one for the move. After a nice elbow for a pin attempt, it seems like Goldberg has run out of things to do that don't involve the run to the finish. He sort of meanders in to punch, then sorta thinks a headbutt might work (which sorta does in an awkward way), then gets distracted by Sid's blood on his palm, sort of looks to where he thinks the ref might be but really is several steps back... and it's a kind of "He fucker, the finish is a Ref Stop Due To Blood so maybe you might want to, er... well... where was I?" No, seriously... it's that sorta awkward. Goldberg doesn't seem to to know that if you're working a Ref Stop Possibility Storyline you need to be Theatrical in how you're playing to the blood and to the Ref so that Everyone In The Building knows what you're up to and the storyline. Goldberg does some rabbit punches to the cut... then wanders off aimlessly when the ref ever so slightly touches him and while the ref barely moves in to check Sid and frankly looks more concerned about Sid letting go of the ropes and fighting than whether he's bleeding a ton. It's a really good example of two really limited wrestlers not knowin how to work something, and not exactly a sharp knife as the ref. Sid with some boots that Goldberg sells strange as if he wants to no sell them but doesn't do it well... until he no sells them. There is a much better clothesline, with Sid taking one of his higher end (for him) bumps off it: actually quite nice. More of the Cringe/Good back-and-forth nature of the match. Goldberg sort of stalks Sid into the corner... slighty clubber... is Sid no selling to tease a comeback... well he does rake the eyes... Goldberg sorta/kinda sells it before deciding he doesn't want to while Sid leans in the corner. Yeah... A much better headbutt, which lets Sid sit his ass down on the bottom rope for deep breathers. Goldberg *palms* the cut... which is a new one for me. Doesn't punch, doesn't twist his knuckles in it, doesn't rake it, doesn't work his fingers into it... palms it. I... yeah... Ref sorta wakes up and move in to check Sid, but not really in classic old school theatrical fashion... christ, the ref might be the worst worker in this match, and that saying something. Sid pops up, had a steely stare down with Goldberg, wails away on Goldberg's back... before blowing up, leaning back on the ropes and signaling to Goldberg that it's his turn. No seriously... it's that obvious that he's trying to get Goldberg's bent over attention that it's his turn. Goldberg with some cool elbows to the back of Sid's neck and shoulders to damage the cut. No... seriously... I'm not shitting you. The first cool downward elbow is aimed generally at the forehead but goes sailing over the back of the head downward and hits... not a fucking thing before swinging around and sorta tapping Sid's right shoulder... maybe. The second one goes sailing over and hits the base of Sid's neck/upperback. It's like a pair of great theatrical strikes... that happen to be right infront of the camera and end up looking back. Ref decides to check Sid, and if there's one thing that Sid has shown in his career it's Fighting Spirit so he's not giving up... Okay, Sid's been a quitting pussy his entire career, but go with me. I think Sid's had enough and the ref isn't getting the picture that he's really tired, so after letting the ref know that he's okay, he instantly stumbles out of the corner down onto his knees looking for someplace to rest his head... which is damn near in Goldberg's crotch. Goldberg seems to sense that Sid is quitting on the match, hold Sid's head and looks at the ref who gets the picture that Sid has quit... about the quickest raise of the arm, tease / non-tease of a blood stoppage that you'll ever see (since they weren't teasing) and calls for the bell since Sid is quitting. I love Sid being unable to make up his mind whether he's a quitter or not post match: waiving to Goldberg that he wants more, then falling to his knees in the aisle, then needing Steiner's help back up the aisle, then suddenly being perfectly fine and wanting a piece of Goldberg, and going way back towards the ring... then realizing that he's really a quitter at heart and slinks away from Goldberg... wait... I better remember to sell this so I don't look at much like a quitter. I'm not even talking about the pre-match beatdown of Goldberg where the Wolfpack just staggers off. I'm not saying it's a horrible match. The blood at least keeps the attention going. But it's pretty clear that the three of them don't know how to work a good dramatic blood finish, and stick with: * Sid bleeds a lot * Goldberg does stuff to the head * we sort of plod along * we run out of stuff to do in that way * we don't know how to sell it well, be the opponent in such a match, or be the ref in such a match * eventually the ref will stop it The first two things are actually decent/good: Sid does bleed a lot relative to 90s WCW matches (and even most 90s WWF matches). And until he sort of runs out of things to do and loses interest, Goldberg does a decent at at time good job smacking the head. But by the time of the downward elbows, he's lost it. Sid had long since lost it. And the ref never had it on reffing a blood match. It's a match that has some nice stuff ("Those are nice punches by Goldy and Sid is actually selling them well"), the expected awkwardness, and some really bad stuff. Maybe expectations were lower. John

I think we all know that. "Attendance" is largely the number of tickets sold. There are freebies out there, but they're minor in sports compared to sold tickets, especially season tickets. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that at the Kings game on Monday it was a "sellout". Which it was: all the places where someone could actually buy a non-season ticket were packed... and it's not like there are a lot of non-season tickets at Staples Center. In turn, the number in the building was far from filled. We were in our corporate highroller seats, and the row behind is was 70% empty. Our row was 50%. People/Companies who have tickets don't always go. Or company doesn't put the tickets it doesn't use on StubHub or sell them to Barry's Tickets because there always an off chance that someone in the company at the last moment might ask for them. Of course the Lakers tickets get claimed instantly at the begining of every month (and some like the Heat game b fore the season ever started), and I don't get a whiff of them but once every few years. But Clipps (at least pre-Griffin) and Kings are often available, and we probably beg people to go to Sparks games... I don't know how many times I've begged off from *not* going when asked. So while I as a fan and I'm sure CFCW roll our eyes when they announce 18K+ in Staples for a Kings game when there are empty seats all over the place... the reality is that those empties were Sold. For a shitload of money in the case of the row behind us, and the Kings ain't giving it back because the highrollers didn't show up. Capacity *can* be worked. But that isn't relevant at all to the present discussion: * FIFA no longer gives a shit about working capacity of World Cup stadium, especially in 1994 * The NFL no longer cared about working Super Bowl figures by the time it was held in the Silverdome Take the Lions out of it, and the concept that they would even work capacity (rather than Attendance) for their games at the Silverdome. The Lions aren't relevant because we have FIFA and the NFL. And while I'm willing to conceed that FIFA and the NFL are as much of lying dogs as Wrestling People (including folks like Dave's Sources), they just aren't working on capacity for the Silvedome in the 1994 World Cup and the 49ers-Bengles Super Bowl. They just didn't give a shit enough to worry about working the numbers. John

I'd have to take a look. I suspect someone was using it in the 70s. It did go out of fashion... not sure why. Equally as silly/fun things remained over: Kyoko and Hase doing the Giant Swing and getting a "count" with it. Suspect that someone could have done it as a spot in the 90s, got it over as one of their spots, and then others started lifting it. John

I don't think that hardcores gave a shit that Douglas got driven out: they were Flair Fans, and Douglas was a nobody at the time. Paul E at the time also wasn't beloved like Cornette, so there weren't a lot of people taking his side in things. I don't recall if much of Gilbert's knocks on WCW were aimed at Flair when he did his Torch Talk and the stuff with Mat Results. Flair did get some criticism for being stressed and aging under the pressure of the Book. But relative to Dusty pushing himself... not even close. Hogan when he had major control in WCW, or Nash? No. DDP didn't have the book but had major influence with Eric and had general control of his storylines when he wasn't involved with the Big Boys (i.e. people who could overridge him in storylines). DDP got heat at the time for doing the storylines to make himself look good, then reworking them to give himself an excuse when he was forced to lose. Ric got it soft. And perhaps he deserved to: I don't think the booking under him was that bad on top. Undercards were kind of solid, so the group of folks working on it weren't bad. We all know Ric, and he's not the type of guy who is going to sit down and block out what everyone's storyline is. He almost certainly was a Head who let everyone else come up with ideas and signed off on them, or let the group collectively decide what worked and what didn't. John

Trip tripping on the ballons was great too. John

Goldberg of 2003 was quite a different beast from early Goldberg. He was booked to go longer, and one tends to think knew he had to make more of a match with people to go that long. Squash Goldberg was effective, but they really were throw away nothing matches. I think there was a Regal match that people liked, but even it didn't go terribly long. John

Counting Punched In The Corner is a spot that trancends more. We've all seen throwaway shitty clotheslines do little to up tepid fan interest. But if they go to the corner, the face hops up on the ropes and starts punching the hell, the fans will count along. John