jdw

Wait... WTF? You lost me. John

I know that all those DVD guys think I suck, but I sold out Budokan before anyone in my or the prior generation, drew 40K in my own promotion to a baseball stadium, sold out the Tokyo Dome three times, and even drew getting my ass kicked by Gracie. Sayama can suck my balls.

Exactly. The pope's number could be cooked to a degree. I don't know. But the NFL numbers, especially the Super Bowl number, give us a reasonable number for how many people are in the stadium when it's sold out and *none* of those seats happen to be on the Football Field. So you start with that baseline. Then: #1 - (a) subtract all empty seats, ( non-sold out seats, and © obstructed seats in the Football Seats #2 - add in the people on the Football Field Dave's own reporting is that there weren't any of 1(a) and 1(. Perhaps he'll feel the need to change that reporting. The photos suggest that there wasn't much if any 1©. It's been years since I looked at the photos, or watched the tape... but I don't recall any obvious obstructions the WWF put up. It was not like the modern "stage" set up. My recollection is that we looked pretty hard for obstructions just to see if there was anything we could give Dave the benefit of the doubt on, and we came up airball. So then you get to #2, and it's not like 500 people are dow there. It was quite a bit more. Several K. Just doesn't add up to "78K In The Building". John

This discussion reminds me of what Bruce has often said/written about Wrestling History vs Good Wrestling Stories. We don't have any of the details about the matches above. All we know is that they happened. And it puts a hole right through what was otherwise a Good Wrestling Story of Sarge. John

Looking at this a bit more given that item... Slaughter-Warrior worked together for the first time on 01/07/91, which was a TV taping dark match that's available. The WWF often did "run throughs" like that. They also worked 01/10/91, and that looks to be it as far as known matches prior to the Rumble. Slaughter was booked with the Duggan feud in the time period where Savage-Warrior was ging on, with some Dusty matches thrown in as well. The Duggan feud continued through most of the balance of January. What Slaughter is likely remembering is this: WWF @ Youngstown, OH - Beeghly Center - January 31, 1991 WWF World Champion Sgt. Slaughter (sub. for an injured Randy Savage) defeated the Ultimate Warrior in a steel cage match at 9:22 when Slaughter escaped the cage WWF @ Richfield, OH - Coliseum - February 1, 1991 (8,000) WWF World Champion Sgt. Slaughter defeated the Ultimate Warrior in a steel cage match WWF @ Springfield, MA - Civic Center - February 2, 1991 (matinee) (5,000) WWF World Champion Sgt. Slaughter defeated the Ultimate Warrior via disqualification WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - February 2, 1991 (8,500) WWF World Champion Sgt. Slaughter (sub. for Randy Savage) defeated the Ultimate Warrior in a steel cage match after Sensational Sherri interfered Bingo! Savage got hurt, it would appear, on the 1/30/91 card. May have gotten hurt earlier than that, but that would be where he took a break after. Savage came back on 03/15/91 for a cage match with Warrior in Milwaukee. Slaughter subbed for Savage throughout that whole period prior to that (with an exception of one by Earthquake at a TV taping), and that 03/15/91 match was the only Warrior-Savage prior to Mania and the only time Savage worked between 01/30/91 and Mania. Possibly a bit of a dry run to see how the hand was coming along. So there was an injury, and the feud was transitioned to Slaughter. It just happened after Slaughter already won the title and Warrior-Savage in cages were booked all around the country. John

Not sure if this makes sense at all. Looking backwards, it looks like Savage-Dusty climaxed in September 1990, and the earliest known Warrior-Savage in this cycle of the feud was 9/29/90. Savage in subbed in for Ax in several of the Warriors vs Demolition matches in October. The feud started started on TV in mid/late October. Savage wrestled Warrior on: 11/1 (twice), 11/3, 11/4, 11/5, 11/9, 11/10, 11/11 (twice), 11/16, 11/17 (twice), 11/18 (twice), 11/21, 11/23, 11/24 (twice), 11/25, 11/30, 12/1, 12/7, 12/8, 12/11, 12/12, 12/13, 12/14, 12/15, 12/26 (twice), 12/27, 12/28, 12/29 (twice), 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/12 Savage also wrestled on: 11/19, 12/10, 1/7, 1/10, The 12/16 - 12/25 is because Graham has only three cards from that period, all on 12/16. Two nights after the Rumble, Warrior-Savage in a cage headlined MSG. The Warrior-Slaughter starts here: 12/15/90 WWF Superstars: included the naming of the final 10 participants for the Royal Rumble match; featured the announcement that the Ultimate Warrior would defend the WWF Championship against Sgt. Slaughter at the Rumble That appears like it might be an production insert rather than something that was tapped at the TV Tapings. The angle at the TV tapings started several days earlier, but aired later in December: 12/11/90 TV Taping 12/29/90 WWF Superstars: included Gene Okerlund conducting an interview with Sgt. Slaughter and Gen. Adnan, with Slaughter unveiling a pair of boots personally sent to him by Saddam Hussein and saying he would wear the boots during his match with the Ultimate Warrior at the Royal Rumble 12/11/90 TV Taping 1/5/91 - included Hulk Hogan as a guest of the Brother Love Show, discussing his participation in the Royal Rumble match; featured an 'Update' segment focusing on the Ultimate Warrior / Sgt. Slaughter WWF Title match at the Royal Rumble, with footage of Gene Okerlund interviewing the Warrior about the match and comments from Randy Savage about the match; included the previous week's interview conducted by Okerlund of Sgt. Slaughter & Gen. Adnan Key thing to note on the Hand Injury Explanation: 12/11/90 TV Taping WWF World Champion the Ultimate Warrior defeated Randy Savage via count-out when Savage walked out of the match 12/12/90 TV Taping WWF World Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Randy Savage (w/ Sensational Sherri) at around the 10-minute mark So on the same show that they're taping the Warrior-Slaughter Angle to launch the Rumble match, there's Savage wrestling Warrior in their standard 10 minute matches. I'm thinking that Slaughter is quite wrong here. There isn't any evidence that Savage couldn't work Rumble opposite Warrior due to a hand injury: he'd been working with Warrior at all points between November to the Rumble, and then instantly after the Rumble. I suspect that the WON even had items about Slaughter-Hogan for the title going back before the December tapings.

How true is this talking point? I've heard it forever as part of Official WWE History, but was it really that much of a risk? What would have been the specific consequences if it hadn't sold as well? The way the story's often phrased, it sounds less like an admission of vulnerability and more like Vince trying to retcon himself into a scrappy underdog who fought against the odds. Dave has confirmed this many times. Vince was cash-starved at this point and had invested quite a bit in Mania. This is a bit overplayed, and of course fits nicely into Vince's own myth making of himself as a scrappy businessman rather than an heir to a businessman. There was a recent Torch Board / Mitchell Forum thread on this. Rather than re-write, here's part of it: Oddly enough, the thread died at that point. Vince would have been in a bind if it bombed. But if anyone takes five minutes to step back and think about it, they'll see it's a rather easy bind to work with. That post of mine is actually *short* on the details of what Vince could (and obviously would) have done if it bombed. I want to be very clear because I'm sure folks would read that as "There wouldn't have been any problems if Mania bombed". There would have been a major hiccup. But the company would have survived, Vince still would have owned it (and all of it again eventually), they would have still ended up dominating wrestling, and the rivals would have all slowly gotten picked off. John

I suspect we can go back through the WON's and find that Slaughter-Hogan at Mania '91 was a very early idea, frankly the whole point of Slaughter's heel gimmick. Remember the original building the event was going to be in. Who knows what goes on inside the head of Vince and Hogan, it's likely that Hogan dropped the title to Warrior knowning he was getting it back the following year from "someone". Warrior not doing well was known pretty early. Savage did well in his run, but they still took it off to give it back to Hogan. John

78,000 seems low just by seeing everyone that was there that day. The Silverdome holds 80,000 for football. At the very worst, all the stands were nearly full and there was the large ringside attendance as well. Even if the WWF oversold the attendance that night, I'd estimate the actual figure would be well over 80,000 and probably in between the 85,000 to 90,000 range. The 93,173 claim doesn't seem all that bad in comparison to the 75,000 and 78,000 figures, IMO. The problem with 78,000 (in addition to the roundness of the numbers) is that from the photos it's pretty clear more than 78,000 fans are in the building. When people pointed out the football number to Dave, and the fact that Football Number + People On The Floor > 78,000, Dave went into Jumbo Was Lazy Mode: "The NFL number is worked too." I'm not sold that it was 93K, and completely accept *that* number was worked to top the prior "record". But the NFL number being worked is grasping at straws. And the building appears to be packed all the way up to the top. And the are quie a few *thousand* people on the floor. There appear to be no significant obstructions to the Stands, like you would get these days. So basically to get from roughly 88K down to 78K, there needs to be 10K empty seat in the Stands... all on the side that best shot of the stadium was taken. My thought is that attempt to explain things away (i.e. the WWF moved people over to one side / blocked off one major side of the building due to tickets not being sold) runs into two problems: * Dave has written several times that it "sold out" * one probably can check out the video carefully and get some find som camera angles of both sides of the building And there isn't going to be an obvious bank of 10K empty seats. I think the last time Bix and I (and probably some of the others here and before that on Classics) went through this, the generally open minded people were willing to cop that 93K could have been a work, but 78K didn't add up at all. 78K "sold" tickets? Maybe that's close to the truth. But even that was a problem when we were talking about it because it would have been a ton of freebies on a show that Dave wrote was "sold out". That wouldn't be "paper" freebies, but "comp" freebies... and 10K is just an insane amount of comp. So insane it doesn't seem possible. John

It's hard to tell. The All Japan footage of DLJ doesn't flatter him at all. He has a couple of flashy spots for a very big guy, but overall just doesn't look good relative to other gaijin. Guy fall into several buckets: * Damn he looks good * he looks kinds interesting-good, I'd like to see more to confirm * there are some flashes, need to see more * not sure what's going on here... these opponents have good matches with others Baron Von Rascke has a match with I think Dory Funk Jr in the 1975 Open League where you're thinking he falls into category #2. There's enough there of him working holds and other things where you think that rather than just being a gimmick guy we saw in the 80s, he could go if in there with a good opponent (i.e. balancing the gimmick with working holds and whatnot). Now that might now be a surprise to people who saw him in the 70s in there with good/decent workers working a balanced match. But to someone who saw his 80s stuff in Crockett, it was a surprise. 70's DLJ falls into the last group. Other than the couple of flashy spots, he doesn't look good. He's big, and that's impressive... but he doesn't look good at that time. Perhaps in the 60s, or working more of a feuding match, he was better. It is later in his career. On the other hand, Pat O'Connor is in the same tourney with at least one singles match and a tag match available. He looks old as dirt. But there's enough in those matches where you get a sense that this is a guy who could go when younger, and would have been a hell of a lot of fun to watch. So I don't want to bag on DLJ too much. But I'd also love to see a match that reflected better on him. John

We know that Misawa had the most fighting spirit of the Four Corners. Did Kobashi have the fighting spirit to beat Jumbo? John

I'm probably the most vocal (and at times the only) person over the years critical of Kobashi's selling in that match. Perhaps part of that is because unlike most people since then, I watched the match in context: 08/29/93 AJPW TV (taped 8/23): Doc drops Kobashi on his head once and knocks him completely fucking stone cold out. He eventually wakes back up several *minutes* later. 09/05/93 AJPW (taped 8/31): Kobashi *gets up* from a backdrop driver... then crawls around after the second one... then Doc needs to hold onto a bridged dangerous backdrop to keep the fucker from wandering away again. 09/12/93 AJPW (taped 9/3 at Budokan): Misawa wants no part of even one of those babies, running for dear life when it's teased, and "surviving" the one that's hit by making Doc take a share of the blow. Kobashi's selling on 8/23 was excellent, and it's actually Misawa's selling on 9/3 that was FANTASTIC. Kobashi was jerking off on 8/31. He basically played Tommy Dreamer going from one Table Shot knocking him out to needing three Table Shots to put him away either days later. Misawa was the one who grasped "I don't want to take even one of these fuckers." Misawa's selling in the title change the following year was great too. John

Speaking of Sandman, he brings to mind that there are probably a lot of Jake stories people can roll out. Of course there was Kevin Von Erich passing out in the Sportatorium ring and the Fantastics having to CPR him. That's pretty much the gold standard of No Condition To Perform that's impossible to top. John

Rodman at the PPV tag in San Diego. I don't know if the camera captured it as the show live was so shitty that I never wanted to see it again... but Rodman was so out of it that he was resting his head on the turnbuckle while standing on the apron. Just fucked up way beyond belief. John

Walk away from the post, Will. John

Frank Jewett was picking apart the series, or more specifically Sayama, forever. Pretty much every point against Sayama made in the "recent" backluash/rethinking of Sayama is a mirror of what he poked and kicked in the late 90s / early 00s. Not saying he influenced anyone on it back than: he picked apart most things Juniors, and a lot of the current Backlash Crowd happened to be on the opposite side of the debate from him back then as they were still in their Juniors Luv period. This is something I think I mentioned as well recently. I recall that I and others often pointed to Sayama-Kobayashi as the better series than Sayama-DK, and that was something I said after the first TM set even before coming on line (which got some interesting reactions). By 2002, I'm pretty sure that people like Dylan who goes back a long time online was pointing to DK-Fujinami as his The Shit! juniors matches in the early 90s, and the one that people really should be checking out rather than that DK-Sayama match. Sayama slagging wasn't that rare at the time. The "backlash" against him in the 80s NJPW set was easily one of the most predictable things of the entire 80s project. John

I suspect it was but that it just didn't get to Lynch. The '97 Super Power Series tapings were 5/18 at Korakuen Hall, 5/27 in Sapporo, 5/30 in Sendai and 6/6 at Budokan. The air dates on Sammy start on "6/20/97" and run through "8/8/97", with three weeks having no show. The air dates look a little funky, as they do the Carny Budokan. Most of what was shown on NTV ended up on Sammy, usually in full... and with lots of other stuff from the cards. It's a little inexplicable that Sammy would air the pedestrian Sendai matches rather than the bigger ones on the Sapporo card. It's likely something that Dan G could eventually track down. It's one of those things where when you start laying the matches out in a spreadsheet, things missing from Lynch (and even Dan at times) jump out, and when you point them out to Dan he typically can check around and ID what's missing. I don't think he's focused yet on filling in all the holes from that period yet. I haven't spent much time piecing together 1997 to June 2000 AJPW in terms of NTV + Sammy + Commercial Tapes to get a sense of where there are some holes. I just know that there are some here and there. John

The 5/27 matches should be full on Sammy, no? There's also Ogawa vs Mossman for the Jr Title on 8/22 (Lynch Boot 981). Hmmm... 05/31/97 Sabu vs RVD on Boot 898. Actually, Kawada vs Patriot is interesting. Not in a Global Yearbook concept, but a AJPW Yearbook standpoint. There is the 9/15/97 Misawa & Kawada & Hase vs Taue & Kobashi & Akiyama match that goes 60:00. That is such a unique match up, and one that would be new to most people, that it probably warrants space even if it is a space eater. 18 really aren't that many. There were 36 on the 1993 set, seven JIP (probably because TV was JIP), and one "finish only". There were 20 in 1996, and that was a period where they had just 30 minutes of TV and Sammy coverage didn't start up until the tag league. 1997 has a fully year of Sammy, along with commercial tapes. Not arguing overload, but there are going to be a lot of WCW and WWF and ECW on the set. If there are good AJPW, put them forward. John

Let me get this straight... the money from Showtime would fund the expansion. Showtime Money > $40M Current Value I don't think that adds up. Allegedly, there are three years left on the contract. That's interesting because the original contract in 2009 was for 3 years, so it would seem that Strikeforce extended it at some point. John

WCW & TNA: Dumb & Dumber