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So Austin beat Rock at Mania in 2001, the crowd went insane over the heel turn... it's the only match and angle that mattered... so the heel turn worked perfectly. I'm glad we sorted that out after all these years. John

You're right... Hase's only challenge was against Hash a couple of years later. He had an NWA challenge against Chono in December 1992 if I recall? And I disagree on the revisit. That is something of value in the Yearbooks. John

I kind of like having them both on the set. Queendom is a major annual card for AJW, and sort of the major Toyota defense up through that part of her reign. This is the close of Toyota's first reign, sort of the "surprise" that her reign won't be as long as Bull's or Aja's first reign. Gotta have *all* Red Belt title changes in the Yearbooks, and Red Belt defenses are a small enough universe that they really should all be on as well. It's a bit like TC title defenses: there really needs to be a reason *not* to put one on. 10/93 Misawa-Hansen isn't a good match, but: * last defense of the year * they had other good matches in the year * follows Kawada-Kobashi * people really need to see TC when they *don't* take off to contrast with those that do On the last, if you don't get that, you're just going to think they're all hit out of the park... or at least up the gap for extra bases. I'm not sure the same is the case for IWGP Hvy Title defenses... but I kind of think it should be. There just aren't that many of them, and it really does over the series of Yearbooks let you get a sense of what title reigns work, and which don't. Muta's 1992-93 reign is worth watching and thinking about so many years after the fact. If we see just the 12/92 Muta-Hase and the 1/93 Muta-Chono, then you might think it was a decent reign. At the time, the rest of the reign was thought to be so mediocre that Muta ended up being thought of as a major bomb as Champ. In turn, people ended up being susprised how well Hash's run of dominating the belt from late 1993 through 1998 went. Don't know if the notion of Muta's defenses collectively being mediocre will hold up so many years, but this is a really good setting for people to review it. Big reason? 8/92: Muta's first IWGP reign starts... and Misawa's first TC reign starts I think by the time Misawa's defense 9/93 against Doc washes up in the US, the notion that Misawa's turned out to be a good Champ was starting to take hole, though I pointed when he passed that it was still in an underrated phase at that point. In contrast, Muta's run was flopping around. Anyway... side tangent to the discussion of the match. John

I think we just had a thread on this match recently... someone probably remembers it better than I do and can point Rob to it. John

It would be interesting to ask Sims or Jose or Cubs Fan if they've ever heard or read anything on why the crowd reacts as it does. It was a big reason I couldn't really get into it back then: the narrative went one direct, the crowd went the other, and unlike Hogan-Rock they weren't quite able to rebalance things. Very much one I'm looking forward to on this set, especially with the other Negro / Santo / Dandy items leading into it. At the time, the thought was that when push came to shove, the fans just didn't want to see the Santo Mask get lost. Don't recall if that was the WON version, or if it was gringos like myself pulling stuff out of their asses to try to make sense out of it. John

There were two. The other wasn't filmed. Kawada got his pin back in that one. Then they refocused with the second one where Misawa pinned Kawada, hitting us over the head again with the "I can't beat this guy" with 6/95 standing as an island in a sea of the entire rest of their career of Misawa pinning him time after time. My favorite points in this match are where they get that across: a pair of times where Kawada has that lost look of, "I just don't know what I can do to beat him" and tags out to Taue who *has* beat Misawa this year. We can talk about Kawada's off the charts selling in various matches, but those looks are at the top of the list for me in Kawada Work. Then post match where Taue gives him that supportive "You did it" pat on the back. Misawa's look to the corner when there was no Jun was great, but that's closer to a standard spot. The two Kawada ones are a little more subtle, and the Taue one is really nice when you think back not just on the last three years of failure for the team (losing All Japan's last match of the year to blow the tag league), but also their rivalry before that. It's something of a "partner" moment that comes across really nice. John

Rumble Shawn wasn't Smiley Shawn. It was Stoned Shawn. I hope the 1997 Yearbook included the empty arena interview he did before the show as he really looked out of it. John

Lucha title match style is really quite fun to watch if your brain is in Lucha Mode. I remember seeing a Perro vs Cien Caras title match that wasn't anything exceptional (and perhaps wouldn't hold up on tape), but *live* was really worked. The two took the match much more seriously than one of their feuding matches, and the crowd took the seriousness of it as well. John

I would leave Pancrase off. I'd also leave off the RINGS matches that were clearly shoots, and anything else that's along those lines (such as AJW's shoot tourney in 1996). If the Yearbook concept takes off, someone down the lines can do a MMA Yearbook, which would be pretty interesting in its own right. Pancrase, UFC, etc. There were Pride works, as in Takada's wins. I don't think they have great value in a Pro Wrestling Yearbook concept, and instead would also be more interesting in an MMA yearbook where the workyness of them would stand out a bit more. Bas-Funaki really fits more into a MMA yearbook. In turn, I'd include Hotta-Lioness from Queendom '95 since it wasn't a real shoot. A work that they were trying to stiffen up a ton to make people think it was a shoot. There are Hotta shoots out there that one can compare against it to get an idea of what it looked like when she was fighting rather than working a dramatic "fighty" match. John

It's a bit too bad their other double-round robin match isn't available. John

Rock has three movies in various forms of production/development, probably more: Fast Five (04/29/11 release) Journey 2: The Mysterious Island (09/23/11 release) Arabian Nights The last may be filming currently: a piece on Anthony Hopkins from January at The Rites was released indicated it was filming. He seems to be upping the pace of his movie work as well. He's not coming back to the WWF. We haven't even gotten to the point where Rock can do a TV series. Jeffrey Donovan gets $200K an episode for Burn Notice. Granted, it took him 5-6 seasons to get up there. But Dana Delany is making $150K an episode for her new series. Sellack is making over $100K. The great thing about TV like that is that once you get in, you tend to get a lot of tries. Look at Simon Baker, whose now on his third series: three seasons, quick bomb, three seasons. Or you can do shorter seasons in cable like Donovan (or the White Collar guys), and do a movie in the off seasons. Could the WWF toss more money at Rock for a Special Match at Mania? Sure. But he's not broke, is still making money in Hollywood, hasn't remotely tapped all of it out (I keep pointing to Don Johnson doing *six* seasons of freaking Nash Bridges), and doesn't have to put up with the insanity of nut jobs in the WWE. John

Totally agree. And also what forms of JIP impact less or greater. We've talked in the past about how AJW could slice a 20+ minutes match down into a 8 minute epic, and the editing is so well don't think people don't get that they're watching a massive clip job. On the other hand, the Hokuto-Kandori was much more moderately edited on TV. Seeing the full is a positive, but not really the massive difference that say the Toyota-Kyoko 1992 singles match that Dave gave ***** to the radical clip-o version. Kroffat & Furnas vs Kobashi & Kikuchi is nice to have in an extended version, but it's not quite the same as have the full versions of the 5/94 and 6/95 Kawada & Taue vs Misawa & Kobashi matches where 40-50% were on the cutting room floor. I'd really love to have the full version of the 11/93 Misawa & Kobashi vs Hansen & Baba to see just what was popping the crowd when they joined it about 7 seven minutes in... but there's the final 23 minutes of the match, and you get a really good sense of what they did to make the match work really well. The other thing is that Carny, G1, the RWTL and TOTSJ/BOTSJ are good annual pulses of AJ and NJ. Most things from those are worth looking at for one reason or another. Even a solid *** G-1 match, if there isn't a comperable matches involving the wrestlers elsewhere in the year, is worthwhile. It would have been nice to have at least one Sasaki match from G-1 a something like people thinking about the difference between Sasaki and Taue isn't too bad a thought to be bubbling through the year. Not that I can remember a Sasaki match at G-1 that stood out. Stuff like Koshinaka-Kojima... that's really cool that it made the cut. So somthing like this tag making it... very good. John

Good reason for it to be on the set. John

The dismissive tone is because you admit not reading the thread and repeat claims that the posters in the thread have already taken the time to explain and shoot down at length. Some of it several times. You expect us to greet with cheer the latest Davefender running in the same old stuff? Flip the roles. What if Dave had to go over his facts on Montreal for the 14th time, with Vince & Shawn Defender brigning up the same argument that he's been shooting down for a decade. You think that Dave isn't going to be dismissive and holier than thou? Honestly? I think some of us here have read Dave's comments on Montreal over the years and would agree that he got more than a bit testy as it went on and on and on. John

Let's take a look at what you said: This is incorrect. There are a max number of primetime games that any one team can appear on. The Colts aren't in 16 primetime games. The Colts best drawing match-ups (such as this year's Colts-Pats game) aren't all on prime time. These limitations have been explained several times by people here on PWO, and probably several times on Dave's board. What happens is that Dave and Dave Marks read about two sentences into a post, get defensive, and think "Here's another attack of Dave" and skip reading the rest of the post. Then the go on buying their own incorrect believe about the Booking of the NFL/NBA/Etc. Which makes us walk through it again. In a sense, it's a waste of our time because folks like you will skip right over this post. Next... We talked about this one before. Colts-Pats was on CBS this year, not on the national NBC broadcast (Philly-Giants) or the national ESPN broadcast (SD-DEN). One can argue that Philly-Giants was a "ratings draw", but it's not as big of one was Manning-Brady. The ESPN game... well, no one other than delusional Chargers or Bronco fans would think it's a bigger draw. Again: there are limits to what the NFL puts into primetime. Read the thread and see how we explain what those limits are, and why the NFL is willing to leave Colts-Pats on NBC (i.e. to make NBC happy come next contract negotiations). . We went throught he limitations of the flex several times, including the right of NBC and FOX to protect certain games, and also the overall limit of the number of times a team can be in primetime. This was explained. Every three seasons, the AFC East and AFC South are "paired" where everyone in each division plays everyone in the other. In the other two seasons in a three-season cycle, thee divisions play one game against the other based on the prior season's placement: #1 vs #1, #2 vs #2, #3 vs #3, #4 vs #4. This isn't "booked" to get good games, but instead a legacy from the prior "parity" concept of the NFL where bad teams get weaker schedules and good teams get tougher ones. The currect schedule leaves less room for that, but there still are elements of it which remains one of the reasons you see teams move towards the middle. So you were 0-3. Again, this happens every time someone points out to Dave he's wrong on this, or someone tries to defend Dave. That's the problem. Dave and Dave Fan gets so defensive about being criticised or errors being pointed out that they never slow down to see where they're wrong, or admit they were wrong. If they slow down even slighty, they then morph the their claim into something else... which has to be shot down as well. People wonder where the snarkiness and firmed headdropping comes from: it's due to having to explain the same type of shit over and over and over again in the face of either willful or defensive ignorance. The problem with this one is that some folks have been trying to correct the stupidity, and educate folks a bit. But the desire to Not Be Wrong or even admit not knowing what they're talking about is leading folks to become even more stupid. Except that in your attempt to shot back at us in the last point, you claimed you were right on everything else. You weren't, so there's another wasted post here correcting it. The reason it's wasted is because you even admit that you haven't bothered to read what other people have said about NFL scheduling, and instead are just pulling claims out of your ass. Which doesn't make you an exception, but instead a perfect example of A and B outcomes in these types of discussions. There are people trying to offer up facts. There are others offering up nonsense. The people with the facts not only have to shoot down the original nonsense, but additional nonsense offered up in defense, then the original nonsense when it comes back to like like a zombie, and on and on. And if you had read this and other threads, you'll see how people have talked about sports in entertainment terms. You'll see actual valid comps, and also shooting down ones that are nonsense. After all, Soap Operas are Entertainment as well, as are primetime drama and comedy series. Plenty of people have made comps to them as well over the past two decades (and probably longer). There are valid comps. There's also bullshit comps. Some folks have attempted to correct the bullshit ones. It's not just the poor verbalization. It's the poor and factually incorrect parallel's he draws, along with his total unwillingness to admit he's wrong when it's pointed out to him. The morphing and shape shifting of arguments is an old habit of his. John

He broke the hell out of it, totally unplanned. For some reason, I found juicing like a faucet hardway out of the nose to be much more uncomfortable to watch than say Mutoh juicing out of the forehead all over the place in G1 1995. John

"BP is Pro Wrestling. Boy did the screw up the booking of that oil spill." John

No, this is where Dave gets confused and we try to correct him. The Pats and Colts play every year because you play the other division teams that finished in the same spot as your team. The Pats and Colts get first every year, except for one where they both got second. And no matter how many times we point that out: * people don't get it; or * they go Jumbo Is Lazy on it by shifting the NFL Is Booked discussion onto another stupid claim that we have to shoot down So we usually have to shoot down the old claim yet again, then have to spend time shooting down the new one. Yep... there was a lot of that. John

You might want to go back to see what those two pages were in response to. John

I think one of the key things in the timeline to remember is: * Austin got Trip's push in 1996, and ran with it * Trip "won" his feud with Rock in 1998... but a few months later Rock was the #2 star in the company * Foley out of the blue takes things to the next level in his feud with Rock in late 1998/early 1999 That's all bubbling through Trip's brain when Jericho comes in, and then on the same PPV debut as Jericho: * Austin doesn't want to put over Trip, and instead puts over Foley Ouch. Trip gets his the next night (and Foley gets cut off, though Trip wasn't pulling the strong there)... then promptly bombs *twice* as champ. Vince gets a pop beating him, then panics over ratings declines in his second run by putting the belt on Show. That's a lot of shit hitting the Trip Fan was one time, right as The Next Big Y2J Thing is hitting the promotion. And Jericho made for an easy target, especially as the promotion was panicing a bit with Austin out. They didn't fully "find themselves" until the start of the year with Trip-Steph combining into a heel unit, with Vince, Foley and Rock (three of the four biggest stars in the promotion at the time) being lined to put Trip and Steph over. John

I was surprised when reading Loss' ****1/2 comment, because I barely remember this match. The ****1/2ish rating from Dave that I recall for a Mutoh-Rick without Scott match was the 11/91 Mutoh & Hase vs Rick & Norton for the IWGP Tag back when Scott was injured. John

There are all sorts of people to tell him about that, including the extremely nice guy The Rock who worked as both Heel and Face in the WWF by that point. Road Agents, other guys in the middle who had no love for guys like Trip at the top... his friend Benoit when he came in who seems to have "gotten it". Austin? Lots of people in the WWF. Not all of them with top spots, or protective of the people in them. Lots of them who would know the Magic Way Of WWF Work. Not a one (let alone 10) of them tells Jericho within a few weeks of getting there how to work? John

One of the things that you scratch your head over (as has been mentioned several times) is how Jericho wasn't told by several people in the WWF about the Grand WWF Theory Of Working. This style wasn't invented when Jericho came in. Ergo... Other wrestlers came into the promotion and had to learn the style. Ergo... Someone told them when they came in how to work the style. Why is it seemingly only Jericho got shat on for "not working right"? I can see Arn & Tully coming in and knowing exactly "how to work", since Tully was bumping Shawn-style before Shawn even got in the business (in other words, Shawn didn't invent the shit). Arn had as well been bumping like a pinball in Crockett for Dusty and plenty of other heels. So these guys didn't need to learn it. But Demolition came in as heels. Triple H came in as a heel. Benoit & Eddy came in as heels. Regal came in as a heel. Lots of guys came into the company over the past 5, 10, 15, 20 years that the Grand WWF Theory Of Working existed, and how many of them did we hear: "Wrestler X doesn't know how to work" Not "Wrestler X sucks"... but that there's a flaw in how he works? I'm not going to say Chris was/is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he kinda-sorta adapted to working in a lot of places. Not saying he was great~! working in Mexico or Japan or Smokey or ECW or WCW, or against every different stylistical opponent he had... but I think it's safe to say he picked up on things enough to get by. A slightly different example to think about: "If you're that stiff with me again, I'll have Vince fire you." I'm paraphrasing... it's the general thought that's important. It's the standing story that's been told for the last decade and a half of what Taker told Vader after their first match together. I was at the match, and it wasn't exactly like Leon treated Taker like he was Inoki or Cactus. Pretty standard Vader stuff, we were thinking it was light relative to what we'd seen out of him in the past... maybe not as light as against Hogan, but pretty mild shit. But Taker told Vader the "right way to work" against him in the WWF. It defies pretty much everything we know about the WWF over the past three decades to believe that not just *many* people in the company wouldn't take him instantly aside and tell him how to work in a forceful fashion, but that NO ONE would. And it kind of defies all we know about Chris that he wouldn't listen at all to the hal dozen or so people who'd tell him: You need to bump like Shawn/Tully/Flair. I'm guessing in the book(s) that Chris gets across having a stuborn streak... but that stuborn? Didn't seem like he rocked the boat that much in WCW. John

I wonder how much Chris saw of others putting in the bad word about him to Vince to undercut him. John

I look forward to it being explained that Aaron has multiple belts, and Ric did in fact send him one of them that's autographed. Or some such nonsense. John