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Two examples of what drives me nuts about how people run with positive and negative comments about wrestlings. This is the other end of the spectrum of criticism of Flair, where people run with the notion that you think Ric "sucks" if you mention anything critical about the High God of Work. No... even good workers do goofy things that warrant pointing out. As far as I know, no one major has even pushed Beyer as the greatest worker of all-time. What "Destroyer Pimping" was about was that he was a great worker who pretty much got lost in time in hardcore (and even more mainstream wrestling) discussions about wrestlers and workers of the era. As his matches were more widely available, more people tended to come to the same conclusions: he was a great worker in the style of that era, especially in terms of holds and matwork. Why this pissed people off, and why people read more into it... one can only guess. I suspect it was due to the people pointing out Beyer was a great worker, and probably the manner they did it (i.e. contrasting good Beyers hold/matwork with shitty hold/matwork of sacred cows). And perhaps because we were assholes in general that there were always folks who had a gag reflex to want to hate what we liked. But even Yohe while saying that Beyer was his favorite wrestler of all-time dating back to seeing him at the Olympic as a kid wasn't calling Dick the best worker ever. So where the notion that "Beyer Pimping" = "Beyer Best Worker Ever" came from... I tend to think it's another example of people not able to parse what's being said. The Backlund comment is similar. As probably the biggest "Backlund Pimper" around, or at the very least the one who gets tagged with it, I've gone out of my way over and over and over again to say: I'm not trying to say or convince anyone that Backlund was a "great worker". I've tried to get across that he was a "good worker" and that a lot of what was Hardcore Consensus about him (and often still is) doesn't match up with what we see in the ring. Before someone uses Mr Searchy and finds the word "great" in various posts I've made about Backlund, saying that something a wrestler does is "great" doesn't mean you think they're a great worker. Saying they're in a great match doesn't mean you think they're a great worker. I don't know if I'd classify Samurai as a great worker. He was a good, solid worker. But if one were point to me using the word "great" or "off the charts" in talking about his match with Ohtani, it's the *match* and the work in it. Backlund-Patera and Rude-Warrior are two of the greatest matches in the WWF in the 80s... probably Top 5 for me, and candidates for 1-2. Would I say that over the course of their careers that any of those four were great workers? A stretch. I do think Patera was a great heel in 1980. But spinkling around the word "great" in those two matches, and around for other stuff that Patera did in 1980, doesn't raise any of them to GWOAT status. I know that's not quite what Jerome is doing. But we have the tendancy to take other people making mild/normal level of praise/criticism and run with it to make it far more than it is. I tend to think it's a reflection that we largely can only have discussions and assigning of value/worth at extremes. This goes back more than a decade on things like star ratings, where *** and **** lost meaning when you suddenly have 100 ****+ matches in a year, and 25 ****1/2 matches. Simply giving a match *** and calling it "good" either had no meaning, or was an insult. An example: Tito-Orndorff from St. Louis that was on the 80s set was a good match. Solid work, good selling, lots of nice little stuff. I use it a lot as an example of the fact that there was good wrestling in the WWF in the 80s, not just all the stuff people bag on. Good match, along the lines of a good match that people would see in other territories in the era. I may mention it so often that people when watching it expect a MOTYC, that Tito and Paul will be off the charts, and that his one of the great lost matches of the decade between two of the great lost workers of the decade. No. It's just a solid, good match. In the original set it stood out a bit because there were a fair number of pretty mediocre matches. It's entirely possible it won't stand out in the DVDVR 80s WWF Redux because there will be a larger number of good to excellent matches on the set. It wasn't "great" on the first set, and it won't "suck" on the second set. It's still just a solid, good match. Our natural rush to talk at extremes on judging the value of things that are simply "good". Backlund was a "good worker". More people see that now than in the past. That's a long way from the consensus of 1996. That's all people are trying to do. Beyer was a great worker. More people get that now. That's a long way from 1996 when only Yohe gave a shit about him, hardly anyone had seen any matches of his, and Beyer was little more than a name on a list. #1? Does it really matter? John

I liked the Pillman-Zenk PPV match. Probably have written several times over the years that it's pretty comperable to Bret-Piper, just without the juice, the bigger show, and the bigger stars. That's why one is more famous, but I think they're both examples of smartly worked matches that are really solid. John

JIP is fine. Nice change of pace, and a good example of how what was once an interesting little division (All Asian Tag) got ignored late in the decade. 1991 as well has some decent AA tags. John

Hogan didn't. I suspect on would look for Heel Champs, as they would be the more likely ones. Heading over the Graham's site... Looking at the Savage-Warrior matches in 1989, Warrior never beat Savage in the non-title matches by pin. In fact, it looks like Savage seems to have won even the non-title ones via COR. Interesting. Looking at Slaughter, he lost DQ/COR against Duggan... but ironically was winning the cage matches against Warrior where Slaughter was a "sub" for Savage. That is strange: they could have non-titled those and sent the fans home happy with a Warrior win. Wow... I even see a non-title cage match where Sarge won. There is one non-title cage match where Warrior got a "pin", which is odd for a WWF Cage match... could be a typo. A few Hogan-Slaughter matches when Hulk was in for a TV taping, and of course Hogan won via screw job. Taker beat Davey Boy on his known defenses between SS '91 and Tuesday In Texas Which gets you to Ric Flair. The night after Rumble, he starts losing screw jobs to Hogan... and Piper as well (though they go back-and-forth with who wins the screwjob)... and an occassional Savage. Then starting in February they begin running Hogan & Piper vs Flair & Sid matches, and this where Hogan gets his pins over Hogan in their feud. Pins him left and right. Piper also beats Flair like a drum in non-title cage matches. It's kind of funny: they won't run non-title cage matches between Hogan-Flair to let Hogan kick his ass, but Roddy is beating him like a drum. Of course Hogan gets the pins in the title matches. Basically from Rumble to Mania, Ric Flair is Ric Flair: bitch champ who gets his ass kicked. And folks wonder why he and Savage didn't draw after Mania? Wait... I do see at least one win by Flair in a cage match: Shawn interfered to help him win. Same thing started up after he regained the title from Savage: did a screw job loss to Taker that's out there on tape. That was a different era, and probably not exactly what Mike means. They did a pretty good job of keeping that off TV, and the Raw/SD era started having tons of title matches on TV. My guess would be to again look in two directions: * Heel Champs doing non-title jobs * Face Champs doing it Heels likely started it first, then we got the Faces doing it. John

I'm sure Vince Russo takes credit for it. I thought Dustin did. John

Except he's not a kid. But yeah... Misawa Fan has been a classic for years. John

Jumbo's last title run: 03/04/92 Jumbo & Taue over Gordy & Doc Title change. Budokan double main. Jumbo's last title win. I don't remember it being all that good. There are two other matches between these teams later in the year that I thought at the time were better. Historical value, but... hmmm... wouldn't oversell it without watching it again. 06/05/92 Jumbo & Taue vs Misawa & Kobashi I talked about it a bit before. Would add that it was the last major Jumbo-Misawa match. My recollection of the last time that I re-watched it was that it didn't blow me away to the degree that I remembered it. Suspect it will be on, and would advocate including it even if it doesn't quite blow away Will and Loss. 08/22/92 Jumbo & Taue vs Gordy & Doc This was a non-title "double-double champions" bouts: Jumbo & Taue having the AJPW belts, while Gordy & Doc had the WCW & NWA belts. Good match. Note: in addition to the TC title change, this match and the Kawada-Spivey mentioned, there also was a pretty nifty Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Fantastics match on that Budokan. Don't remember if it was full on TV or JIP, but it would be a nice little match to include. 10/07/92 Jumbo & Taue vs Gordy & Doc Jumbo's last title match. Another good one. While rematch of something that happened less then two months later, I'd suggest that it's useful to see Jumbo's last big title match. The set will rapidly transition into the post-Jumbo world, with a hint of things to come in the Misawa-Kawada, and then the tag league without him. Note: There was one last Jumbo & Co. vs Misawa & Co. match that aired: 11/01/92 TV with Jumbo & Taue & Ogawa vs. Misawa & Kobashi & Kikuchi. Not their best-best-best match, and with Ogawa/Kikuchi rather than Kawada/Fuchi not quite their most classical combo. Still reasonably good if I recall, and makes an effective closing of the book on the era. They had a better Korakuen Hall match back in August if I recall, and that might stand as a good final example of Kawada as part of the trio opposite Jumbo. There also was a Kawada-Ace on that same 11/01/92 show that is an interesting change of pace, and early Johnny against one of the Four Corners. Again, all depends on space.

This reminds me that there was the equiv of a mini-tourny late in the year between Misawa, Kawada and Taue. Kawada had another good match with Taue, Misawa had a non-title singles match with Taue that was solid enough (better than their match earlier in the year), and of course Misawa-Kawada on the anniversary show. Depending on space, those might be another two Taue matches to consider. Kawada had a singles match with Spivey on the same Budokan as the Misawa-Hansen title change that was quite watchable back in the day. Over the course of Yearbooks, it would be a good comp for the Spivey-Luger (Wrestlewar 1991) and Spivey-Sting (6/89 AJPW Budokan). For Kawada, it's a match outside the usual collection of gaijin. John

Should feature Hansen's last singles title run, since the 1995 was just one-and-out. 01/28/92 Hansen over Jumbo for TC Title change. Last Jumbo-Hansen as mentioned above. Jumbo's last singles title match. There are tons of Hansen-Jumbo matches through the years, but those three reasons are enough to have it make the cut from a historical stadpoint even if it's so-so. A bit like the 1990 Jumbo-Tenryu closing the book. 03/04/92 Hansen-Misawa Half of a Budokan double main (with Jumbo & Taue winning the tag titles from Gordy & Doc). So-so rated by Meltzer... I can't even remember it. I do think one of the two Misawa-Hansen matches *prior* to the title change should make it to get across the theme of Hansen having his number. The Carny Final was better in my recollection, so that might serve the purporse more. 06/05/92 Hansen-Kawada Mentioned earlier. Really needs to be on there. 07/31/92 Hansen-Taue Taue's first challenge for the TC. A bit better than folks expected at the time. Creates a good Kawada-Taue-Misawa comp as all had Hansen as a common opponent in TC matches in the 6/92 to 8/92. Overall, there's likely to be a lack of Taue singles matches making the 1990-95 sets relative to the other Four Corners members, so folks are going to end up judging him by the tags. Really need to look for examples to include. It's not that long of a match, under 15 minutes. Of course the title change with Misawa makes it, and the 10/92 Misawa-Kawada. John

A list of the early parts of the WAR/Tenryu vs New Japan feud was given to Will a while back for the Tenryu comp... think it probably came up again recently. One thing that might be borderline cut-level is the Jumbo-Misawa draw from Carny. Not as good as their two in 1990 or their one Triple Crown match that happened in 1991. But it is the last singles match between the two, the last of the four after the mask came off. Sorta needs to be on there. The 1992 Carny TV, the last time I watched chunks of it (with Jewett half a decade ago), wasn't off the charts stuff. John

Valentine as well. Piper and Valentine, along with Flair going back on tour. Didn't Steamer also run a short term retirement angle? John

Misawa had an underrated WOTY year. Not one of his frontline years in that regard, but a bit more subtle: his job was to get others over, and he did a rather good job of it. I don't think the promotion did a good job of nailing any of them: * Taue's shinning moment was quashed by Kobashi getting the belt * Jun seemed to spin his wheel in 1997, then the pairing with Kobashi was a regression * Kawada wouldn't advance form 12/96 until 5/98 But that doesn't take away that Misawa did what he needed to in 1996, pretty well. John

This is cool. John

May I suggest as a goof that you edit the first Hogan-Flair to end with Flair's pin and "winning" of the title. All the stuff of the belt going back to Hogan with the Dusty finish left on the cutting room floor. Okay... it wouldn't be accurate, but an old Flair Fan can dream. John

One thing that's a side tangent to this is that Dust's "hot run" came at a time when the WWF was moving from Dynastic Face Champ (or at least the quest of it) to Bounce The Title Around: 01/23/84 Hogan 02/05/88 Andre (someone needs to get it off Hulk) 03/27/88 Savage (place holder until Hulk was back) 04/02/89 Hogan 04/01/90 Warrior (next dynasty... failed) 01/19/91 Sarge (bridge champ) 03/24/91 Hogan 11/27/91 Taker (PPV angle) 12/03/91 Hogan 01/19/92 Flair (bridge) 04/05/92 Savage (sorta dynasty attempt with Hogan gone... failed) 09/01/92 Flair (bridge) 10/12/92 Bret (dynasty... failed) 04/04/93 Yoko (insta-bridge) 04/04/93 Hogan 06/13/93 Yoko (bridge) 03/20/94 Bret (dynasty re-attempt) 11/23/94 Bob (bridge) 11/26/94 Nash (dynasty... failed) 11/19/95 Bret (bridge for a change) 03/31/96 Shawn (dynasty... ) While the title was moving around more from 1992-95 than it had in the past, there was a clear attempt to create a Dynastic Face Champ: Bret, Nash and now Shawn were the clearest. That leaves out the Lex Express, and of course comes after the earlier Warrior one failed. Real bounce around started as the Monday Night Wars heated up. I wouldn't call Shawn-Sid-Shawn one, as it was similar to Hogan-Yoko-Hogan: the goal was short term to pop the Rumble. Problem was after it: they were going back to Shawn-Bret, Bret getting his win back... and the wheels came off. Shawn's smile rather than dropping it to Sid (to set up Sid-Taker for the title at Mania). The Final Four --> Sid mess. Taker's run seemed set up to have Bret get it off him, and then all that other mess. The company wasn't really of the mentality to do a one day turn around like they did in 1998 with Austin --> Kane --> Austin, then going off the charts at the end of 1998 on into 1999. Dust came along during Shawn's Dynasty run. It just wasn't the time when they had the mentality to do it. John

Was there a reason Jeff Jarrett vs Chris Benoit at Starcade didn't make it? Struck me as being part of that strong four match opener that really gave a snapshot in time of how wide open WCW was right then: * two juniors/cruisers matches * womens match * two smaller heavies getting a push Then the card transitioned into the "drawing" section: * current pushed draws Hall & Nash / DDP * two guys who keep getting push on top despite never taking off (Lex/Giant) * icons from another era holding down the top in Hogan and Piper Always thought Jeffey-Benoit was a pretty good match, and a good comp for Jeffey-Shawn which will end up on the comp for its year. John

I enjoyed this match a good deal live on PPV. It was a lot of fun watching Hogan play bitching, stooging, cheating heel after all those years as an annoying face: he had a lot of his shit down pat. It wasn't pretty, and Piper really looked awful often in the match with Hogan doing the carry job. But for a spectacle... it was strangely fun that night. Not saying it was Hogan-Rock good, as that one was a hell of a terrific spectacle. But this was pretty watchable at the time, capping a pretty enjoyable show. John

I probably would go Hogan, Hash, Takada in some order. I think I had Hogan in the Torch Awards, which were US based. Can't remember if I had Hash ahead of Hogan in the WON awards. John

Understood. One of my points in all that was that those two matches have a strange, "relative" pace. It's not like they're pacey in the sense of a current indy match, or say a Kanyon Nitro Match. Taue and Misawa do sell their spots. I'm not sure if the pace is far greater than the 7/95 Misawa-Kawada, which also has an All Japan "sprint" feel for a big match even going 24 minutes. In that case, it's not just that it's 11 minutes shorter than 6/94, but much of the 11 minutes dropped is the slower, more methodical stuff. They're getting to stuff earlier, and quicker. With this, it more of an "edited" Misawa-Taue match relative to their two Budokan matches the year before. Are they really any quicker in selling their stuff compared to say a 25 minute match. They just happen to cut out a big chunk of that they did in their 1995 Budokan matches. Some of which was clearly "slower". Some of it wasn't slow stuff. The "faster" aspect is more in the sense pages 26-75 of a 200 page book have been chopped out. Some those 50 pages are slower exposition, but some of it has some good high spots on it. Pages 1-25 and 75-200 haven't been changed much at all, so the pacing of those sections are pretty familar. It's just a 25% shorter book: overall it's a quicker book to read, but due to a big sectionbeing taken out rather than tightening throughout. It's a paradoxical sprint, and probably half spotfest and half sprint. And moreso in an All Japan context than crossing over into comparing with other promotions. It wouldn't be a sprint relative to Kyoko vs Toyota going 16 minutes. John

Awesome. John

It's interesting over the years that we've tossed out the word sprint (or words to those effect) for AJPW matches like this, or the 7/95 Misawa-Kawada, or the Kawada-Kobashi from the same night especially relative to the other draws Kawada-Kobashi were working. It makes one pause to think about the sprint: 04/28/96 Shawn Michaels vs Diesel (17:53) 04/29/96 Nobuhiko Takada vs Shinya Hashimoto (12:33) 05/24/96 Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (19:41) 05/24/96 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (16:05) 05/26/96 Shawn Michaels vs Davey Boy Smith (17:21) 06/23/96 Undertaker vs Mankind (18:21) 06/23/96 Shawn Michaels vs Davey Boy Smith (26:25) Misawa-Taue wasn't really that short in the big picture. Shawn-Davey was something of a long WWF match, as was the Shawn-Taker from Rumble earlier in the year. Here are the WWF PPV title matches, leaving out the Bret-Shawn due to the Iron Man gimmick: 01/21/96 Bret vs Undertaker (28:31) 02/18/96 Bret vs Diesel (19:13) 04/28/96 Shawn vs Diesel (17:53) 05/26/96 Shawn vs Davey Boy (17:21) 06/23/96 Shawn vs Davey Boy (26:25) 08/18/96 Shawn vs Vader (18:59) 09/22/96 Shawn vs Mankind (26:25) 11/17/96 Shawn vs Sid (20:02) 12/15/96 Sid vs Bret (17:03) Shawn-Davey and Shawn-Mick are pretty much Shawn trying to work an epic match, with the Davey almost being his attempt to Budokan a match. Bret-Taker was a strange one... don't know if that was stretched because the Rumble that year was such an incredibly limited card. But by the WWF, WCW (which is hard to run with since it's Hogan) and NJPW standards, the length of Misawa-Taue (and Kawada-Kobashi) isn't too sprinty. It's also not as if they didn't sell and were just working go-go-go like Low-Ki vs Chris Daniels. But yeah, for All Japan hitting the 15 minute mark and being in the home stretch of a match... that's pretty quick paced when we were use to them falling out of bed to go 20+ (and increasingly longer) in big matches. John

I think people's point is that the post-Mania end run of the feud made Cena look like shit, which impacted his ability to get over like Austin and Rock did before him. The story of the feud, and the impact upon Cena, didn't end with Mania. The story of Rock-Austin (i.e. Austin turning) didn't end with Mania. One could argue that it "worked" that night: really strong reaction. But the story of Austin's turn went on after it, and pretty much went off the cliff in the Maximize The Drawing Power of it the very next night. It certainly had plenty of fun stuff after that, and I enjoyed a hell of a lot of Heel Austin stuff. But I can't shut my mind off by just focusing on (i) loving Mania as a stand along and (ii) loving lots of individual things in that heel run in a vaccum, while ignoring (iii) all the shitty booked / writing that most importantly (iv) resulted in a Austin Heel Turn that wasn't exactly the business impact that the Hogan Heel Turn did. Cena-Shawn at Mania wasn't a stand alone or in a box. There was more to it afterwards, and it was one of many poor/strange/destructive booking/writing decisions the WWE made in that era. John

Don't forget that Hase had a few days as "WCW International World Champion" in March of 1994. Swapped it with Rude, but it was almost a throwaway in that series. Think of Tiger Mask challenging Steamboat for the NWA Title in 1989. John

Agree with pretty much all that. Plus there needs to be a little Historical Significance Factor in there. We can go up and down the block on the quality of the Hogan-Andre matches at Mania III and The Main Event. But they *are* historically significant: one is arguably the biggest match in company (and in turn US) history, and the other is the end of Hogan's four year run with the belt. "It's a big fucking deal." -Joe Biden Now the Mania IV match and the County Stadium matches... one could bounce around on. The Mania IV match was the one used to sell the show, so it is clearly big. And the County Stadium match... the WWF didn't run many Really Big Shows in those early days of PPV, so that is a big match headlining a big card. Can make arguments there. And it's not like either are 60 minute draws. But in turn, it would be three Hogan-Andre matches on the 1987 set, and you could see that as perhaps overkill. In in turn-turny-turn, there are four Misawa & Jun vs Kawada & Taue matches on the 1996 set. They play a role in telling the story of All Japan in the year, so that's an argument for them. The title change and the tag final are the more known and watched matches, so the other two fit nicely into one of the great concepts of yearbooks: putting in matches that are less seen/talked about. Another big argument for them. Those two are quite good, another positive. So if those go on, I can see reasonable arguments for putting on all three of the 1987 Hogan-Andre matches. That's a long intro of where I'm going: 1992 Hansen vs Kawada Positives: 1. Triple Crown match 2. AJPW Budokan double main event (with Jumbo & Taue defending against Misawa & Kobashi) 3. one of only two Hansen-Kawada TC matches in that era (the other Kawada dropping the title in 3/95) 4. contrast/comp/set up for their more famous 2/93 match 5. Tokyo Sports Match Of The Year Negatives: 1. loads of higher "star rated" AJPW matches in 1992 2. Hansen-Kawada isn't a unique match: there are others Hansen-Kawada has two Usual Suspect aspected for inclusion: TC matches and AJPW Budokan main events. Those always get the lean effect of "there needs to be a reason to leave it off". It has those two negative reasons to argue against it. But the negatives get a bit washed out by #3 & #4, then pretty much squashed by #5: if you're MOTY in one of the things that we can track (WON, Torch if anyone cares, Tokyo Sports, Lucha mags if they're out there, AJW's annual awards), then you're a match that needs to be on a yearbook. To me, 1-4 are more than enough to reasonably include it, even if it was a dog of a match. In fact, if it were a dog it would really need to be seen. #5 is sort of overkill for inclusion, but closes it. Will shot me a note on the NJPW for 1993 and I was pretty honest in admiting that I haven't watched most of that stuff since 1993, and a lot of the NJPW stuff fro that year has gotten foggy in the brain. So I went with memory of quality where I could, but also tried to give some added bits on historical value, especially in suggesting other matches to watch and consider. I'd have to look back at the note (if I saved it), but I think one of the things I focused a little bit were some of the IWGP Heavy title matches, as the year transistioned from a "disappointing" Muta to a (back at the time) "oh crap, they didn't put the belt on" Hash. And those two Hash defenses in December being very early signs that maybe folks were under estimating Mr. Hashimoto. On paper, Hash-Power looked like a groaner. Hash-Mutoh rematch, after Mutoh kind of sucking it up for a couple of years, looked no more interesting. Then the times of the matches washed up before the matches, and the thought of teeth being pulled popped into the mind. Then the tv shows hit and... they didn't suck. In fact, at the time they were "good"... felt like title matches should. Against two "problem opponents" in 20+ minute matches, Hash had what were considered good matches starting himself down the path of what I think most of us would agree was the best Ace that New Japan had in the 90s, and folks argue about just how he ranks among Aces in the history of the promotion. Those two matches are starting points. Anyway, this is a long post. The end point would be for people when advocating matches: Don't be shy at explaining the reason you think it should be included beyond the simple "It's great". I'm trying to remember the post from years back who was the huge FMW fan, pretty much as Zach moved on from it. I wasn't a huge FMW fan. But he was a guy who was knowledgeable about the promotion where if he said: "This was the key big match in the Tanaka-Gladiator feud. They had some better, and they had one headlining a bigger show. But this is a key one that needs to be on there because of _______." Then I'd give that some strong consideration. If you push for 9 Tanaka-Glad matches in a year and arguing all are great or significan historically or in the booked, then you kill your argument. If I were to push for 20 six-man and spot show tags out of All Japan in 1993 as "this is another great one", then I'd be crackers. But arguing for Kroffat & Furnas vs. Kobashi & Asako and explaning *why* it standout from the usual spot show tag... then I've got a chance of Will and Loss thinking a bit more about it. Granted... I do loath that 1993 AJPW pm when it shows up because it in a really insane year to try to edit for a multi-promotional Yearbook. It's not just the "great" matches that might end up on the floor. There's small stuff like Tracy Smothers showing up for a series, making TV only in four six-man tags that are good-but-not-great... but are actually *good*, and Tracy's pretty decent in them. I don't know what they heck you do with those. One of them is the first putting over of the backdrop driver, so of course that would end up making it... but the angle there probably overwhelms the rest of the match, so even there you might not have people getting a sense that Tracy didn't look back for a mid-level gaijin. Anyway, I'm overrambling at this point. John