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I understand that. My point has been: 0 Fans = WWF in Florida before Hogan Lots of Fans = WWF in Florida with Hogan Those numbers for Austin are good. But he didn't take the WWF from not running in Florida (and IL, IN, OH, etc) to running in those states successfully. There are some cities where Austin helped the WWF finally do business. But does it rate to what Hogan was adding: Hogan added to the WWF: 14,531,529 Los Angles (2) 8,239,820 Chicago (3) 6,253,311 SanFran / San Jose / Oakland (5) 5,187,171 Detroit (8) 3,731,131 Houston (10) 3,192,582 Miami / Fort Lauderdale (11) 2,970,328 Seattle / Tacoma (12) 2,859,644 Cleveland (14) 2,538,834 Minneapolis / St. Paul (15) 2,498,016 San Diego (16) 2,492,525 St. Louis (17) 2,238,480 Phoenix (19) 2,067,959 Tampa/St. Petersburg (20) 1,980,140 Denver (21) 1,980,140 Cincinnati (22) 1,793,476 Portland (23) 1,607,183 Milwaukee (24) 1,582,875 Kansas City (25) Austin added: 4,037,282 Dallas / Fort Worth (9) 2,959,950 Atlanta (13) And even in Dallas, while they weren't super "successful" in Dallas under Hogan, they were up to this: 1989: 4 shows in Dallas + one big crowd in Austin 1990: 4 shows in Dallas + 4 in Austin 1991: 3 shows in Dallas + 3 in Austin 1992: 1 show in + 1 in Austin That's ignoring their earlier "failed" attempts. They basically pulled out of Dallas and Forth Worth when Hogan left. They still did 5 shows in Houston, which shows that they didn't pull completely out of Texas. One of the points I've tried to get across that the process of going into cities isn't simply to get house show attendance. It's to build the fan base, which is key when you've expanded the "products" the WWF sells. House Shows were just one of the products. Not saying he was the guy anchoring those shows. He *was* achoring the TV being blasted into Texas, and the PPV's being offered there, etc. John

I don't think there's any evidence that Vince couldn't have gone public in the 80s. He simply didn't think of it, and at the time owning the whole thing himself was the bigger egofuck. Really, I don't think the concept of "fleecing stockholders who have no voting right and power of any note" was a concept that really took off in the mid-80s. It was more of a 90s thing. Viacom is this giant clusterfuck of a stock scam where Rudstone holds a small chunk of the stock, but an overwhelming amount of the voting control. Despite that, the stock has gotten re-leverage time and again as the empire has expanded. Hardly the only one, and someone more connected with the financial and stock industry could probably go into it more. The WWE going public really isn't the boon to Vince as was the massive increase in revenue *without* the expenses getting out of control. The stock is paper wealth to Vince. Unlike say Paul Allen and Bill Gates, Vince hasn't been unloading small (or large) chunks of the stock over time. In fact, the company has bought back chunks overtime, like the Viacom and NBC pieces. There may be a tax benefit to sucking money out of the company as a dividend rather than as salary or as bonuses, but I'm not entire sure that the company needs to be *public* for him to get that tax benefit. I work for a private company, and we just dividended a chunk of case to the shareholder. There arguable are other benefits the WWE gets from being public. Overall, I don't think they're as important as taking the company $80M to $100M a year revenue company to a $400 to $500M company. $50M in profit last year even while paying out $80M in dividends? But again, if Vince & Hogan handn't expanded across the country, opening up the business to all sorts of revenue channels other than simple "Come Out To The Garden On Tuesday", what company is there for Austin to grow? John

To get across how much stuff is buried in the WON's that Graham hasn't gotten to yet, here are the attendance numbers for the AWA/WWF shows in the Twin Cities from right before the first WWF show through the close of the original version of the WON: AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – May 13, 1984 = 15,248 "announced" / "probably double actual attendance" AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – June 10, 1984 = 8,000 "announced" as 12,871 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - June 17, 1984 = 11,000 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – July 15, 1984 = 8,500 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - July 22, 1984 = 5,900 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – August 13, 1984 = 5,600 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 26, 1984 = 11,500 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – September 9, 1984 = 3,000 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - September 23, 1984 = 5,400 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – September 30, 1984 = 7,900 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – October 21, 1984 = 17,000 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - October 28, 1984 = 8,000 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – November 22, 1984 = 16,000 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - November 25, 1984 = 3,000 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – December 25, 1984 = 13,000 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - December 29, 1984 = 13,000 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – January 13, 1985 = 10,500 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - January 29, 1985 = 3,000 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – February 22, 1985 = 10,500 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - February 24, 1985 = 3,000 WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - March 17, 1985 = 5,500 AWA @ St. Paul, MN – Civic Center – March 24, 1985 = 5,500 Kris didn't bring over all the WWF shows, focusing on Hogan cards. Some of Graham's dates for those shows did have figures. Also, at times you'd get a Mr. Mike and a Meltzer figure. I leaned towards Mr. Mike. Also, if he wen't "11-12K", I would split the difference with 11,500. Numbers are up and down. The AWA hit a very bad spot, then rebounded with the October show and a nice run. There was the sense in early 1985 from Mr. Mike that they were hitting another dry spell, and with the exception of the coming show in April, the balance of the year is bleak. WWF was up and down as well. The key for them, almost certainly, was to get a beach head, attack Verne's talent base, and if not knocking them out quickly, keep hitting body blows and wear them down. John

This thread has made a stronger case for Hogan than any I've ever seen in the eternal debate. Still, it's awfully tough to compare the two since they were in such completely different circumstances. If the WWF had someone in 84-86 who was as insanely popular with the general public and oddly innovative with his gimmick and presentation as Austin was in 98-99, Vince would have had a decent chance of pulling off the same stunts he did. But, they did have someone that popular and relatively innovative right there already with Hogan, so the argument is kinda moot. Yeah, that's what we're saying. Vince pulled off the equiv of the stunts he did with Austin a decade before with Hogan. As mentioned in the other thread (don't know if Kriz pulled it over here), we can draw links to almost all of the business/revenue channels of Vince in the Austin Era to similar foundational business/revenue channels in the Hogan Era. The one thing that I can point to that's *possibly* new in Austin's era is the monetizing of television programing. I don't know what/if Vince made money directly off SNME, The Main Event and USA programing, or at which point he did. On the opposite end, we know the Vince made a ton of money off WWF/WWE programing in the late 90s and especially in the past 10 years as tv has turned from simply being something to promote house shows and PPV to being a revenue and profit generator. But... WCW hit the jackpot on the before Austin took off and the ratings war turned. So if the argument is that Hogan didn't invent monetize TV programing on in anyway (not sure), then the reality is that Austin didn't invent it either. WCW did... or possibly Vince did earlier in the decade when Raw started doing good ratings for USA before the Monday Night Wars. Might not have been a ton of money, but starting down that path. We do know WCW went through the roof on it, to the point that *all* of us hardcore wrestling business analysts talked about WCW focusing on TV over PPV. Part of the was the egofuck of wanting to beat Vince. But another part of it, that some were slow to catch onto, was that once successful in the ratings, Nitro became a cash cow for TW-Turner, and a good chunk of the was sent down the company ladder to WCW. Hogan was the revolution. Perhaps some elements of the revolution existed before him, as some like to point to World Class as doing some of the things that Vince later did. But it's the equiv of early revolutionary sparks in Russia. They ended up being a footnote in history relative to Lenin, the Bolshevik's and especially Stalin. John

Ohio was an interesting expansion for the WWF. These primary metros: 2,859,644 Cleveland (14) 1,980,140 Cincinnati (22) 1,345,450 Columbus (29) 951,270 Dayton (43) 614,128 Toledo (61) That's a helluva a territory on it's own. Looking at when they seemed to go in: 11/13/83 Cincinnati 03/19/84 Dayton 05/24/84 Columbus 06/xx/84 Toledo 10/04/84 Cleveland Not entirely sure why it took them so long to run Cleveland. It's clearly the jewel of Ohio. Perhaps Vince waiting to get the right major arena. They did run Akron as early as *January* in 1984, and it's part of the metro that 30-40 miles away. That's not a great distance: my comute is 40 or so miles given the round about way I have to go. One could argue they were running Akron and waiting for the building they wanted. Crockett certainly tried to come in and did have some good-to-decent gates. But going to the general theme: Ohio was a non-WWF territory that the WWF successfully added to its territory in the Hogan Era. Whether another promotion game in and did business isn't terribly relevant: McDonalds expanding across the country from a small, California franchise to a national one isn't lessened by KFC doing something similar. At the end of it, McDonalds was vastly bigger, while KFC ended up being bought by Pepsi so they could pump beverages. These all overtime became good WWF cities for the past 25 years. Not always great, was WWF business goes up and down. But one couldn't argue with the point that the WWF expanded successfully into Ohio in the Hogan Era to add those fans to the WWF Base. John

Good... "Pre-Expansion WWF". Perhaps not thriving, but I don't know if it ever took off huge after 1984. A lot of Upstate New York looks like that: part of the WWF pre-expansion, but not a massively pushed region. Possibly due to facility seizes. I would think that some of those cities got newer, bigger facilities as the 80s and 90s went along. John

I would loosely say that these are elements of the old WWF territory before expansion: 19,549,649 New York (1) 6,727,050 DC/Baltimore/N VA (4) 5,892,937 Philly (6) 5,455,403 Boston (7) 2,394,811 Pittsburg (18) 1,189,288 Buffalo / Niagara Falls (33) 1,157,585 Hartford (35) 1,134,350 Providence (36) 1,062,470 Rochester (38) 861,424 Albany (48) 742,177 Syracuse (56) 638,466 Scranton (60) 600,895 Youngstown (62) 595,081 Allentown (63) 587,986 Harrisburg (66) 587,884 Springfield (67) Some, like Rochester and Albany, are a little hard to find WWF shows for in 1983. It's possible that they ran shows in cities in the metro area that are *not* the name of the metro. Similar to running a card in Ann Arbor in the Detriot metro. Or Long Beach and Anaheim and San Bernadino in the LA Metro, where their home base were the regular LA Sports Arena shows. But we'll stipulate these are part of the old WWF territory. Awesome base to expand from: #1, #4, #6 & #7 in size, along with a good sized #18 and other quality metros to promote in. In a lot of territories, cities the size of Hartford and Providence would be excellent second and third cities, if you get the fan base in them interested. So it's a great base, not even touching on being based in NY for the media and entertainment connections. So what was added? Clearly these: 14,531,529 Los Angles (2) 8,239,820 Chicago (3) 6,253,311 SanFran / San Jose / Oakland (5) 5,187,171 Detroit (8) 3,731,131 Houston (10) 3,192,582 Miami / Fort Lauderdale (11) 2,970,328 Seattle / Tacoma (12) 2,859,644 Cleveland (14) 2,538,834 Minneapolis / St. Paul (15) 2,498,016 San Diego (16) 2,492,525 St. Louis (17) 2,238,480 Phoenix (19) 2,067,959 Tampa/St. Petersburg (20) Stopping there for a moment to touch on three things: Some of these cities, such as Los Angeles, saw the WWF sending out feelers to in 1983 by running a show or two. I don't think we'll find many of them being successful, and we'll also find that when these metros truly became "WWF Towns" it was via the Expansion and with Hogan. Los Angeles became a very good town for the WWF for years, as did the bay area, during Hogan's run. These cities were very much added to the WWF from 1984 on. Second, that's 18 out of the top 20 Metros in the county that become "WWF Territory". Only Dallas-FW and Atlanta are missing. Third, it's *not* the old WWF Base making up that 18. Only 5 were from the Base, while 13 were via expansion. Given that mass addition, the rest added frankly are overkill. For example: 1,980,140 Denver (21) 1,980,140 Cincinnati (22) 1,793,476 Portland (23) 1,607,183 Milwaukee (24) 1,582,875 Kansas City (25) There's 21-25 all added to the WWF territory during Hogan's 1984-92 run. Some were more successful than others, and they had problems with the commission (rather than the fans) in Portland. But there were more fans added to the WWF territory via promoting in those cities. Many more. From 5 of the Top 25 metros in the country (admittedly 4 huge ones) to 23 of the Top 25, 15 of them added via Expansion under Vince and Hogan. Visual to hammer it home: 5 of Top 25 Pre-Hogan 23 of Top 25 Hogan Think of this in terms of a business, such as a Food Chain or a Cable Company. You've expanded like that, not just moving into those markets by dominating in them... it's staggering. Running through the rest: 1,481,102 Sacramento (26) 1,380,491 Indianapolis (28) 1,345,450 Columbus (29) 1,224,852 Orlando (32) 1,072,227 Salt Lake (37) 951,270 Dayton (43) 948,829 Louisville (44) 937,891 Jacksonville (45) 863,518 West Palm Beach (47) 852,737 Las Vegas (50) 836,231 Honolulu (53) 755,580 Fresno (55) 666,880 Tucson (58) 639,580 Omaha (59) 614,128 Toledo (61) 589,131 Albuquerque (65) 543,477 Bakersfield (69) 489,483 Sarasota (73) 485,270 Wichita (74) 480,628 Stockton (75) Another clear 20 metros out of the Top 75. They don't have to always be doing gangbusters in these cities to add to the WWF's bottom line: remember that the WWE hasn't done gangbusters in every city on every card in the past six years. But the wider fan base means more people who buy the variety of products in the channel, not just house shows. This is important as PPV grew in the Hogan era. Here are ones they clearly had issues with: 2,959,950 Atlanta (13) 1,443,244 Norfolk (27) 1,162,093 Charlotte (34) 1,050,304 Greensboro (39) 865,640 Richmond (46) 855,545 Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill (49) 830,563 Greenville (54) 506,875 Charleston (72) That's the core of CrockettLand. These ones are the Texas metros other than Houston: 4,037,282 Dallas / Fort Worth (9) 1,324,749 San Antonio (30) 846,227 Austin (51) 591,610 El Paso (64) I think by the end of Hogan's 1984-92 run, we'd find some evidence of the WWF promoting in them. We know they had early issues there, and never were off the charts until later in the 90s. But any fans added in Texas were potential PPV buyers, and of other WWF product. Others worth more of look: 1,285,270 New Orleans (31) 1,007,306 Memphis (40) 985,026 Nashville (41) 958,839 Oklahoma City (42) 840,140 Birmingham (52) 708,954 Tulsa (57) 585,960 Knoxville (68) 528,264 Baton Rouge (70) 513,117 Little Rock (71) Deep south in there, and the Watts & Jarrett territories. I don't have a great feel for how the WWF did in those areas, though we do know Vince went into TN from time-to-time. The other thing that jumps out looking at all of this is an extension of that early 23-out-of-the-Top-25 point: Vince & Hogan pulled the major ones to an overwhelming degree. The ones they had issues with or we need to look a bit more at are in the lower part of the Top 75: 23 of the Top 25 26 of the Top 30 32 of the Top 40 38 of the Top 50 44 of the Top 60 54 of the Top 75 It's in the 30s where it starts to pop up with more cities where they had issues, or where you'd need to look. So I'll say it again: From 5 of the Top 25 metros in the country (admittedly 4 huge ones) to 23 of the Top 20, 15 of them added via Expansion under Vince and Hogan. Then add: Is there *anything* Austin could possible have done to match that? We haven't touch on Canada and Europe. Canada is huge, and was regularly promoted in by the WWF starting in Hogan's run. They also started their beachhead in Europe in Hogan's era, in 1987 I want to say. I suspect that some might point to the WWF opening some markets in Europe in the Hogan Era *without* Hogan being on the cards. Who was the tool that got WWF product on TV in Italy and France and Germany, and got it over with the fans? Hogan. Austin is awesome. He took revenue to the next level. In a territory that Hogan was used to build. John

Here's another data dump to add to the thread for future reference. These were the top Metros in the US in the 1990 Census. I chose 1990 rather than 1980 because: * Expansion was in the middle of the decade * this is where the country was headed rather than where it had been If you're expanded business, you want to grab (i) Big and (ii) Growing. Which makes 1990 data more reasonable: it's where the WWF and Hogan were headed. Could get more anal on this by adding in growth % for the decade, but I don't think it's that critical. 19,549,649 New York (1) 14,531,529 Los Angles (2) 8,239,820 Chicago (3) 6,727,050 DC/Baltimore/N VA (4) 6,253,311 SanFran / San Jose / Oakland (5) 5,892,937 Philly (6) 5,455,403 Boston (7) 5,187,171 Detroit (8) 4,037,282 Dallas / Fort Worth (9) 3,731,131 Houston (10) 3,192,582 Miami / Fort Lauderdale (11) 2,970,328 Seattle / Tacoma (12) 2,959,950 Atlanta (13) 2,859,644 Cleveland (14) 2,538,834 Minneapolis / St. Paul (15) 2,498,016 San Diego (16) 2,492,525 St. Louis (17) 2,394,811 Pittsburgh (18) 2,238,480 Phoenix (19) 2,067,959 Tampa/St. Petersburg (20) 1,980,140 Denver (21) 1,980,140 Cincinnati (22) 1,793,476 Portland (23) 1,607,183 Milwaukee (24) 1,582,875 Kansas City (25) 1,481,102 Sacramento (26) 1,443,244 Norfolk (27) 1,380,491 Indianapolis (28) 1,345,450 Columbus (29) 1,324,749 San Antonio (30) 1,285,270 New Orleans (31) 1,224,852 Orlando (32) 1,189,288 Buffalo / Niagara Falls (33) 1,162,093 Charlotte (34) 1,157,585 Hartford (35) 1,134,350 Providence (36) 1,072,227 Salt Lake (37) 1,062,470 Rochester (38) 1,050,304 Greensboro (39) 1,007,306 Memphis (40) 985,026 Nashville (41) 958,839 Oklahoma City (42) 951,270 Dayton (43) 948,829 Louisville (44) 937,891 Jacksonville (45) 865,640 Richmond (46) 863,518 West Palm Beach (47) 861,424 Albany (48) 855,545 Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill (49) 852,737 Las Vegas (50) 846,227 Austin (51) 840,140 Birmingham (52) 836,231 Honolulu (53) 830,563 Greenville (54) 755,580 Fresno (55) 742,177 Syracuse (56) 708,954 Tulsa (57) 666,880 Tucson (58) 639,580 Omaha (59) 638,466 Scranton (60) 614,128 Toledo (61) 600,895 Youngstown (62) 595,081 Allentown (63) 591,610 El Paso (64) 589,131 Albuquerque (65) 587,986 Harrisburg (66) 587,884 Springfield (67) 585,960 Knoxville (68) 543,477 Bakersfield (69) 528,264 Baton Rouge (70) 513,117 Little Rock (71) 506,875 Charleston (72) 489,483 Sarasota (73) 485,270 Wichita (74) 480,628 Stockton (75) Stopping at 75 as it's the first obvious breaking point after we drop under 500K. There are some useful metros below that, but we're also reaching the point that it confirms a lot of what we already know further up the list: 513,117 Little Rock (71) = a city that warrants some looking into 506,875 Charleston (72) = another CrockettLand problem for the WWF 489,483 Sarasota (73) = another part of FL engulfed in the WWF 485,270 Wichita (74) = another part of the plains expanded into by the WWF 480,628 Stockton (75) = more of CA added I may have missed a metro or two when copying it out of the Census PDF. Let me know if any jump out. More in the next post...

Understood. More along the lines of the prior Hogan appearance: Hogan-Piper several months after Mania, drawing "4,500". That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Savage in November 1985 wasn't as big of a star as Piper yet, but attendance went up 11K? I can see the WWF doing poorly on non-Hogan shows, as they do that into 1986 and 1987. But 4500 for Piper-Hogan and 4K for Hogan-Bundy (who had the big push leading up to Mania) sandwiching around that 15K for Hogan-Savage on Thanksgiving... doesn't that strike anyone else as odd? I don't know if KHawk went to any of those shows and maybe has some knowledge. I just toss those shows out, among others, that are probably worth taking a deeper looking into the WON and Mat Results. John

These both were taped: New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 23, 1984 (15,000) Televised on the MSG Network WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Greg Valentine at 10:33 with the legdrop; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Valentine to ringside Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - August 4, 1984 (12,908) Televised on the PRISM Network WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Greg Valentine with a clothesline and the legdrop at 11:18; after the bout, Valentine shoved referee Dick Kroll out of the ring (Hulkamania, Best of Hulkamania) They're both out there in circulation. John

This is an example where it would be interesting to go back and parse through the WONs, Mat Results and Torch (once it started) for more infor on these shows where Graham is missing data. Here are the Twin City cards with Hogan from 1984-87: Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - June 17, 1984 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned David Schultz Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 26, 1984 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Gene Okerlund defeated George Steele & Mr. Fuji Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - October 28, 1984 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan fought Big John Studd Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - December 29, 1984 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated the Iron Sheik Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - March 17, 1985 (5,500) Jesse Ventura defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - June 1, 1985 (2,700) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Don Muraco Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - July 21, 1985 (4,000) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Roddy Piper Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - November 28, 1985 (15,000; near sell out) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Mr. T) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Bobby Heenan) Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - January 20, 1986 (4,500) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated King Kong Bundy Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - February 22, 1986 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Ricky Steamboat defeated King Kong Bundy & Bobby Heenan Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 17, 1986 (11,500) Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - November 2, 1986 (10,409) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - February 8, 1987 (13,383) Hercules defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan St. Paul, MN - July 8, 1987 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Killer Khan St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - October 25, 1987 (4,346) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan fought the One Man Gang The Thanksgiving 1985 show really stands out, to the degree of being inexplicable. Then we have a strange number for Bundy, are missing data for the tag, Hogan-Ordorff doing business, then Hogan-Herc doing better business than Hogan-Orndorff and Hogan-Bundy. Not quite getting that. I think Mr. Mike wrote a lot of stuff about the War going on. I haven't read it in a decade and a half, but I seem to recall at points if felt really bleak for the AWA, long before late 1985. Perhaps he was based in Chicago, but I thought he was in the Twin Cities. That's one of the things with those old WON's: attendance numbers can be be in a variety of places, then corrected/changed the following issue. Probably need to identify the cards/areas the need a closer eyeball, and over time folks can add data. John

The sad thing about the New York cards is so many attendance figures are missing. And things like 8,000 for the 1985 SNME look off in Graham's numbers. They drew 7K for the next card without Hogan that has a figure (two shows later), then pop 17K the next time Hogan comes (a rehash of his Studd feud). John

Baltimore and Philly are interesting as they were longtime WWF markets where Crockett was able to go into them and do "well", at times extremely well. John

I think there are a lot of other cities in FL that they hit. It's hard to tell the attendance as Graham doesn't always have it. But some debute shows: 12/26/84 Jacksonville, FL - Veterans Memorial Coliseum August 15, 1985 - Pensacola, FL - Civic Center August 16 or 17, 1985 - Ft. Myers, FL - Lee Civic Center WWF @ Tampa, FL - August 18, 1985 (9,365; sell out) Graham has that as their first show, and Hogan is on it. WWF @ Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - August 19, 1985 (3,000 w/o Hogan) WWF @ Tampa, FL - SunDome - December 19, 1985 - SNME Just doing a ", fl - " search for shows: 1984 - 7 1985 - 34 1986 - 24 1987 - 28 1988 - 22 I suspect similar to 1985 that we'll find them in all the major cities: Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, Orlando. The other thing we need to remember is that it's not just about drawing fans to house shows: Vince was expanding the revenue channels to PPV, merchandise, videos, TV (SNME), etc. Florida is full of a lot of fans. Prior to Hogan: FL wasn't part of the WWF. After Hogan, Florida was and is part of the WWF's "territory" though ups and downs. John

Quick add to NY: You want to get in the Meadowlands and Long Island numbers for the WWF as well. I did this once before in a thread to show how Hogan wasn't in MSG as much because he was also used as an anchor for Meadowlands and Long Island cards. There was the Hogan-Muraco series from 04/22/85 to 06/21/85. After that, he wasn't back until 12/30/85. So for 1985-86 (with the Jan 87 completion of a feud): 02/18/85 MSG: Hogan vs Piper 03/08/85 Long Island: Hogan vs Ventura 03/31/85 MSG: Mania 04/22/85 MSG: Hogan vs Muraco 05/10/85 Long Island: Hogan vs Orton (SNME) 05/20/85 MSG: Hogan vs Muraco 06/21/85 MSG: Hogan vs Muraco 06/26/85 Long Island: Hogan & Orndorff vs Studd & Orton 08/02/85 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Beefcake 10/03/85 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Volkoff (SNME) 11/01/85 Long Island: Hogan vs Ventura 12/05/85 Long Island: Hogan & Tito vs Savage & Ventura 12/30/85 MSG: Hogan vs Savage 01/27/86 MSG: Hogan vs Savage 02/17/86 MSG: Hogan vs Savage 03/10/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Studd 04/07/86 Long Island: Hogan vs Bundy (from LA at Mania) 04/22/86 MSG: Hogan & Hillbilly Jim vs Studd & Bundy 05/08/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Muraco 06/22/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Adonis 07/17/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Adonis 08/04/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Adonis 09/22/86 MSG: Hulk Machine * Big & Super Machine vs Bundy & Studd & Heenan 10/03/86 Long Island: Hogan vs Orndorff 11/03/86 Long Island: Hogan vs Orndorff 11/24/86 MSG: Hogan & Piper vs Orndorff & Race 12/01/86 Long Island: Hogan vs Orndorff 12/08/86 Meadowlands: Hogan vs Savage 12/26/86 MSG: Hogan vs Kamala 01/05/87 Meadowlands: Hogan & Steamboat vs Savage & HTM 01/19/87 MSG: Hogan vs Kamala 31 matches (30 we you kick out Mania II, but Hogan really was the draw at *every* venue that night). Just 13 of them were in MSG. Basically, Hogan was being spread around the New York area, helping block rivals from all three major venue, and giving WWF fans a lot of different matches/cards to chose from in a given month. John

Kris: can you C&P this into another thread? It's going to get buried in this one. Perhaps after that, Loss can comeback in here and cut out the posts. I know he can't "split" threads. This is good stuff, and really should be a great reference for future discussions. Also, there's likely more information on crowds in the WONs (especially estimates for the Twin Cities and Chicago). John

Would appear to be the case from Caldwell. John

"[in 1984, the] WWF also ran its first house shows in such places as the Twin Cities, Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus, Atlanta, Norfolk, Richmond, Memphis, Nashville, Louisville, Birmingham, Miami, Jacksonville, Oakland, Sacramento, Fresno, St. Louis, Kansas City, Toronto, Dallas, Houston, Calgary, Montreal, Winnipeg, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Ottawa, Vancouver, and Oklahoma City. It had already opened up Detroit and Cleveland very late in 1983 and had its syndicated TV in many more markets." http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...t=105422#000000 Yeah, Tamalie is touching on stuff that I'd hammered for years. There probably are similar things in WC threads on Austin-Hogan and a WON Wrestler of the Year thread. If you're going to expand into the South, other than Texas what state/market would you want? Florida. They took Houston when Bosch threw his hat in with the WWF. They didn't do massive business in Houston, but they did turn it into a WWF town/market in Hogan's 1984-92 run. And with PPV and other revenue channels that the WWF was expanding into in the 80s/90s, adding more eyes and potential buyers is important. Perhaps the WWF might only get 5000 to show up for a live show in Houston. But they also were chasing those those folks to by Mani, SummerSlam and Survivors, while also making the market less likely as one that the opposition might suceed in. I know that we all wax about Mid Atlantic, but if you're the WWF in the 80s, Florida is vastly more important to you. I think people in the 80s who wanted to bash the WWF and Hogan were grasping at the failures (Mid Atlantic, Atlanta, Dallas) while overlooking that the rest of the country was largely steamrolled, and as a percentage of the population in the country, what the WWF and Hogan added into their WWF "territory" was overwhelming and staggering. Maybe I'm running it into the ground, but: 1990 Census 248,709,873 US Population 42,008,942 East North Central (IL, OH, MI, IN, WI) 39,127,306 Pacific (CA, WA, OR, etc) 17,659,690 West North Central (Mizzou, MN, IA, KA, NE, Dakotas) 13,658,776 Mountain (AZ, CO, UT, NM, NV, etc) 12,937,926 Florida 125,392,640 Added That's literally half the country. What was it added to? 37,602,286 Mid-Atlantic (the Census considers this NY, PA and NJ only) 13,206,943 New England (MA, CT, etc) 6,054,536 (Maryland, Delaware, DC) 56,863,765 Original Territory 182,256,405 New Territory They added a chunk of population that was 220% larger than the old Capital Sports territory. And moved having 22.9% of the population (which was easily the largest old territory) to 73.3% of the population in the country. And I suspect by the end of Hogan's run there we can add elements of Texas to that as well, since they certainly were able to run major shows there (Rumble '89 was in Houston, Tuesday in Texas was in SanAn, SNME in Austin & Lubbock). There were two SNME in TN (Nashville & Chattanoga). That's not even factoring in Canada and Europe. And yeah... I know that's not the point your were making about the South, Kris. I just see the Austin-Hogan argument being made made elsewhere, and I don't think that enough attention is being flashed on how massively the WWF expanded with Hogan as the tool. John

The rest of it is good as well. My favorite Bruce piece every. I kind of wish that Bruce did one of those self published books (as other have) of his pieces up through roughly the end of the War. John

Toronto happened very fast: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/mlg80s.htm They had not had the WWF champ since late 1982. But they had regular WWF talent after that, along with the NWA/Carolina talent. Muraco was up as late as June 1983. After that, it's a little less clear. Slaughter-Mosca was a big feud from Aug 1983 through Jan 1984. He was getting a big push in the WWF at the time after leaving the Carolinas. Andre made his last appearance in Aug 1983. This seems like the split between these two cards: The first still has Slaughter and Tito. The next sends in NWA heavy hitters: Flair, Rave and Dusty. Then end comes very fast: Toronto gets dogshit from Crockett and the NWA for the June 24, 1984. Perhaps the WON would indicate whether it was known Tunney was joining he WWF, or if that was one of the things that drove him. July 22 is a WWF card, loaded up with people that Toronto fans had been fed over the years. The next card has Hogan. I'm trying to recall if the Tunney bio in the WON had anything interesting on this, and if Tunney played it well. Seems to have, or at the very least knew where it was headed, and rather than war with Vince, he joined Vince. I'm not sure what Vince paid him for the "territory". We know Tunney was on the payroll for years afterwards. Toronto ended up doing great business for Vince, though it's not like Vince to share a big cut of anything and instead to put someone on salary and/or contract. This goes back to the discussion of Hogan vs Austin that we've had on several boards. Hogan wasn't the only tool Vince used to eat up territories/cities, but he was the key one. I think Tunney could look across the boarder and see what Vince was doing in AWA cities with Hogan, and knew that if Vince got on TV and got into an arena there with Hogan, that his goose was going to be cooked. With Hogan, Toronto got insanely hot. They took the rest of Canada as well. If we were to run through Graham's site, and the WON as well for data, the number of cities and territories that the WWF added to it's promotion with Hogan as the spearhead is rather staggering. Looking back now after 20+ years of viewing the WWF as a national promotion from sea to sea, it might not have impact on us. In the context of the time, it really is staggering. Austin being able to go into the GA Dome and draw isn't remotely the same as Hogan taking the #2 CSA in the country (Los Angles) from a dead area to thriving, stealing the #3 CSA (Chicago) from the AWA and starting the AWA on the path to death, rebuilding the dead #6 CSA (CA Bay Area) from the dead, rebulding the dead Detroit, adding Seattle, invading the Twin Cities successfully, Cleveland, St Louis, Denver, Sacramento, Indy, Milwaukee... all of Canada... and on and on. Tunney looks like one who saw the handwriting and reacted smartly. John

This is a giant fuckin embarassment. John

This is the middle part: Prior to that he points out that the ship is sinking and Jimbo was getting desperate. After that he goes off on a booking suggestion that takes Pryor's advice used in the opening: My recollection is that this line: And what was around it drove Jimbo much crazier than the Gordy part. It's a great piece. That's about a third of it, and as much as I'd care to c&p out of respect for Bruce and Wade. John

That's extremely early in the expansion: May 1984 issue probably was put together and mailed in late March / early April. It a theme that Dave and others would come back to time and again. What's a little interesting, and I'm not sure how much Dave or others have talked about it, is that the Monday Night War era probably created a bump in new talent even after WCW died. It's likely that the popularity of WWF/WCW/ECW in the mid-to-late 90s, and then the WWF into the early 00's, is what got a lot of the younger guy into wrestling. Popular things tend to get people to want to follow that path. There also was a pretty wide variety of wrestlers in that era, so all sorts of kids could dream of being a wrestler, rather than just juiced up guys say following it in the 80s. Problem now is that wave of popularity has passed. The number of kids following it in 2010 is smaller than in 1996, and what they follow is largely one promotion, and its product is a bit more of the "same" rather than as eclectic as say 1996 was. How many 8-15 year olds in the past 3-5 years have watched the WWE and said, "That's the shit I want to do"? It's not just that you have 10 kids who want to do that. It's that the base of fans you're drawing from is big enough that your net draws in guys who have the talent _and_ drive to turn out to be something. There are places they can work to get experiance: there remains a pretty wide indy circuit, and even the WWE isn't immune to picking up guys who've made their way through it. The bigger question is what type of talent is coming up behind the batch that was spawned by the peak of wrestling that has since passed? There always was a bit of snobbery among hardcore fans that Memphis was garbage wrestling, while the "Good Stuff" was in FL, the Carolinas, St Louis, and San Fran before it declined. John

"And with all this, and locker room problems too, Cornette has decided now is the time to rip off SMW fans not only by bringing in an impaired Terry Gordy and trying to pass him off as the great wrestler of the past, but by also falsely advertising a hair match on his big Knoxville show." -Bruce Mitchell, Onward Cornette's Soldiers, PWTorch #554 (08/06/94) It's literally a throwaway line in one of Bruce's best and most famous columns. Of all the things that set Corney off in that piece, the Gordy line was low on the list. I think Jimbo has just used that as an easier item to complain about. John

I'm trying to figure out why Dave would make any concessions to joining any board, let alone that one. Don't quite get Bryan on that one either. For all my references about porn over the years, I'd never think of allowing a thread/forum on it on a board that my name was attached to as an owner/mod. I'm hardly a prude, but there are plenty of places around the net for folks to go to for that other than a wrestling board. Let alone what I would assume is a jailbait thread. Dave is being a bit dense on the potential blowback as well that is possible on the internet. John