jdw

So every Hogan match had the same opening gambit? Same finish? Or did he have a few different basic types depending on which match in the series it was, what they planned on doing for the rematch, whether Hogan wanted to open hot kicking the shit out of the heel, or wanted the heel to go out on top to set up some early payback spots? By template I don't mean a rigid form where all using the same template are identical. Simply that you get the sense you're watching the Square or the Circle or the Rectangle, and while some of the coloring inside the form are different depending on the opponent, it's a pretty simple form they're filling out. Hell, I'm not even talking just about his big matches. I'm more talking about house show match after house show match after house show match that I've watched over the past few years. His 1984 matches, especially those that are a bit longer, tend to meander around a bit. They're not yet the tighter Hogan Match that we see by 1986. His longer matches after that, such as Mania '89 against Savage and Mania '90 against Warrior, aren't really Hogan Matches. It's one reason I don't think the 1989 match is very good relative to some of the better Hogan-Savage matches in the WWF: it's not tight, tends to ramble around and lose focus, and is pretty flat in stretches. The match with Warrior kind of worked by being something different. But neither was remotely close to a typical Hogan house show match you can pop in from 1986-90, or really even a SNME match. John

There's a ton out there still for me to watch. John

I'm trying to recall prior posts/thread on this board: haven't some of the posters here "debated" Bryan in the past. Setting aside the home court advantage, how well has Bryan come across in them when marshalling facts? John

This is odd. Hasn't Dave put over Vince's greatness at other times, say relative to people like Eric or Russo who might rip Vince? John

I have to think that some of them are included. Edge's numbers didn't seem to add up without it. Keith: you're on the WO-4 boards. You could ask Dave if Stacy's data is avaiable anywhere. John

Really? Even going back to something 20-30 years after you first watched it? You've never flipped your thoughts on a book or movie or record you liked or hated when you were a kid? There's a lot of stuff that I read or watched in college and enjoyed, and now wonder why the hell I was thinking. The old "I was drunk/stoned/high those years" only goes so far. Or stuff when younger. An example: One of the HD channels just aired the debut of the second season of Charlie's Angles. Late night, wasn't sleeping and just killing time flipping channels until I was tired enough to fall asleep. I came across "Angels in Paradise", the first episode after FFM left and it took me back to the summer of 1977 when it first aired. I was 11, and one of the hot topics of the summer was how they were going to replace FFM, who was the hottest thing of all-time (for that year). So this was some major shit at the time. And of course they replaced here with Cheryl Ladd, who became a big star (relatively speaking) in her own right. I've always held the memory that for us 11 year old boys that was a great freaking pair of episodes, and that on Thursday at school we were buzzing about the awesomeness of them and the newest Angel. Some I'm watching Angels in Paradise, and it's pretty damn bad. Jackie is as classy looking as always. Ladd is kind of spunky, but trying to fit in. Kate Jackson is the "leader", the smart one... but she looks fucking WIRED through the hole episode. So I'm not quite getting it... why was this such a big thing for us back them. So I set the DVR to record the second part the next night, since I had no plans to stay up that late again. And I'm watching that one, and it's about as bad as the first half. The guest stars, working a bad fake Italian mob gimick, are horrible. I forgot to mention it was set in Hawaii, and the locals are written in cringe worthy fashion. I'm really scratching my head. Then comes "rescue" time, since the whole plot of the two-parter was the Charlie had been kidnapped and taken to Hawaii with the Angels going to rescue him. He's being held off shore in a yatch by the mobsters. So rescue time... out at sea... with a boat... And 33 years later, I remember why it was such a big deal to us 11 year old boys and the episode was great: Cheryl Ladd in the rescue section running around the yatch in a bikini looked GREAT~! in a 1977 context for dumb ass kids just figuring out that girls are GREAT~! That the show was pretty weak, really laughable at times didn't matter. It's not what we were watching for. We wanted to check out the New Angel, and she was off the hook. Having rewatched it for the first time in 33 years, I can say: * Charlie's Angels was another weak 70s show that doesn't age too well * it's got a lot of company along those lines * it was hardly the worst of the old T&A TV that it spawned * Cheryl Ladd does look rather exceptional * I greatly underestimated how great Jackie Smith looked in a bikini as well... but Ladd would have been quite distracting to an 11 year old because her strengths were more obvious shall we say, while Jackie is the type you come to appreciate more as you age Okay, so I've drifted away from the topic and risk Will and Loss getting annoyed with this... but there's a point behind the analogy: I think most of us change or opinions on different things over the years. No doubt there are some that were continue to hold and reafirm. But there are always things we wonder "What in the hell was I thinking?" or realize "Ah... that's what I was thinking... yeah, kinda funny." I think the applies to wrestling as well. I'd think you've watched wrestling long enough, RE, for that to have happened on at least some things. Or perhaps give it another ten years. John

Bumping this. C'mon... jdw at least must have seen one or both! Neither of them. I never was much of a watcher of SWS/WAR in those years, and never really went back to track them down. John

And very specific last slot is main event definition of main event. If that's the case, he's pretty being rather odd as is Dave for using it. Dave above all has preached that the Last Match isn't always the Main Event. For example, Hogan's matches often didn't close SNME. *None* of his matches closed NBC's The Main Event shows, with te closest coming when they went off the air during the Can-Am vs Harts was shown after the Hogan-Andre. What was the selling point of Mania IV? Hogan-Andre meeting first. Savage-DiBiase wasn't a major part of selling the PPV because it wasn't even "known" to the fans that it would be the Final. Now I'd really like to see how this list was put together. What if something is on the list that wasn't Hogan-Vince at Mania that Dave told us week after week was the main event of the card? John

That was a jdw typo: was --> wasn't John

Wouldn't disagree with that. Just think it would be better put in the context of "This guy was really better than hardcores thought at the time" than Sucked/Forgotten Good Workers. Again, the list above is just WCW & WWF. It doesn't include anyone from ECW nor from AAA when they came across the border. I'll have to look. He was on the list. Just thought he worked in a wide variety of promotions, similar to Cactus. John

One thing people should keep in mind when adding Japanese promotions to the list: Shows often have Double Main Events. I suspect Stacy was dealing with that in the US stuff, as Dave has at times pointed out that what goes on last isn't always the main, nor is the Title Match. In Japan, we get some of the same. 1994 AJPW Tag League Final Night: Last: Kawada & Taue vs Baba & Hansen Second to Last: Misawa & Kobashi vs Williams & Ace These are both the "main event". It was booked that these were the teams in the chase for the Tag League. Misawa & Kobashi won, then had to see what happened in the last match. Baba & Hansen won, which gave the Tag League to Misawa & Kobashi. Had the same thing in 1991: Gordy & Doc vs Hansen & Spivey went on last if I recall, with Jumbo & Taue vs Misawa & Kawada on before that. Does anyone truly think that natives matches wasn't every bit as much of the Main as the gaijin match? No. So you need to take some care in assigning the main event status. At times it's a little obvious (10/92 AJPW Budokan, despite a very strong semi-main). At other times less so (6/92 AJPW Budokan with a TC match that ended up taking Tokyo Sports Match of the Year while the top two stars in the promotion were opposite each other in a Tag Title match). Or the perfect example of Mania 2002. Does anyone think the match that went on last for the undisputed title warrants full share of the main event status? I don't think so. Okay, so it's as best partial... but then check out the crowd reaction to it and the other main match. Yeah, at times one half of a main is more heated. The problem there... folks were *leaving* during the match that went on last. It's very clear that to the fans in the building (which was rather large) and most likely to the fans at home who bought it, that Rock-Hogan was the Main Event, and Jericho-Trip was one of the other Big Matches on the show. I seem to recall we knew that at the time as well, even before that Sunday: it became a bit more obvious on TV that the fans weren't off the charts interested in Jericho-Trip, while the interest in Hogan-Rock was pretty damn big. The New Japan dome shows with: * Tenryu-Choshu and Muta-Chono NWA/IWGP * Tenryu-Inoki and Hash-Chono IWGP At the time, we pretty much knew that the Tenryu match was the main. Through history, folks might think it's those younger Hall of Famers in the title matches. So often you need to think card through. John

So Shawn has a LOT of mains that didn't hit ****+. Did Stacy O’Laughlin publish the data on the WO-4 boards? Or elsewhere? If not, this is one of those things where Dave could take advantage of the fact that he has a website. The full data/research is too much for the WON, but by making it available somewhere, people can review it and build on it. John

Angle's TNA stuff was counted in the research.

People I flipped my opinion over the years: Baba - thought he sucked. Actually a better worker than the old consensus. Physical issues, but pretty smart in knowing how to work a match. More active when younger, surprisingly so at times. Pretty smart when you look at all the things he added over the years. There really wasn't any need for Baba to add a DDT to his moveset, but he did. If you track stuff like that over his career, it's pretty interesting in how open he was to stuff. At his best and in the context of his time, he's not terribly different from Taue at his best and in the context of his times. Backlund - thought he sucked when seeing him in the 80s, and the early 90s. Hoback pushed him for years as being better than I gave him credit for. Yohe didn't hate him as much as I did. Turning point was Frank's "Backlund & More" tape. Not just good matches on there, but good comps of opponents working with other wrestlers. A Bob-Dusty to compare with a Dusty-Inoki. Patterson-Bob and a Patterson-DiBiase. Several others like that. It was an invitation to start thinking more about his work. Will set was several years after that, and of course fab. Brody - an iconic dead guy when I started reading the WON. Like everyone else at the time, he was on the list of guys to get tapes of when I started getting old tapes. Wild juice filed matches, they were interesting to watch at the time. Changed over time. Remember one of the early things was Yohe tossing out an off hand comment at a diner on a Lucha trip about Hansen being better than Brody, even when they were teaming. That wasn't a commonly held opinion at the time, and wasn't agreed to at that meal. More stuff popped up as we would watch tapes at PPV get togethers. I'm not sure when I started actively ripping Brody... seems like most of the last decade. Don't know if I'd go so far as to saw he's awful. He certainly was very effective at times, but you could say that about Hogan... more often, in fact. He did "cool stuff", lik bleed all over the place and act like a nutty wild man. But he also did a ton of things that other got/get ripped for, but Brody skates on. He does any number of things that are awful. Hogan - Hulk was the Anti-Flair, and as a Flair Fan it meant I hated him and his matches. Even when I enjoyed his Hollywood Hulk stuff, I still couldn't stomach watching his Rock'n'Wrestling Era WWF Hulk stuff. I actually don't mind his matches from that era now. Don't think I pimp any of them as being great, but a lot of them are pretty effective in what they do, and some are pretty entertaining. Hogan was a pretty effective worker, and got more dialed into what worked for him as time went by in the WWF. Some of the 1984 stuff is a little formless. A couple of years later, he has a few different templates down for working Hogan Matches to roll out depending on need. Tito Santana - never thought he sucked, just thought he was a typically boring WWF worker. Watching stuff for the SC WWF Poll and other things, he actually was a very solid worker. I don't just look forward to seeing his matches now, but I also get disappointed when they turn out not to be good (like his stuff with Muraco). You don't get disappointed by bad workers: you just tune out. Rick Rude - at the time, he didn't do much for me in the small bit of World Class I was able to catch before he jumped. His Crockett stuff didn't do anything for me, and at the time I was more enjoying how Manny went from bland, boring face to solid heel. His initial WWF stuff didn't do much for me. I thought the Summer Slam match with Warrior was good, but it and a few others felt like more exceptions than the rule. Then he jumped to WCW, and suddenly was "good". Very good. So change #1. What was interesting is that when I went back and watched some of the WWF stuff, Rude didn't "get good" in WCW, but was good in the WWF. Maybe there was an added level of confidence in his work that he developed in WCW (bigger fish in a non-Hogan, non-Savage, non-Flair pond)... but he was good in the WWF. One of the things that I look forward to in the Crockett set is to see how good he was in that run. Dittos in the Texas stuff. Ken Patera - Only saw his "comeback" way back when, and he seemed like a fish out of water after the time in the slammer. Just didn't think he was any good. Saw the Backlund-Patera match at some point in the early 90s since it was WON MOTY, but it didn't make a mark on me: was still in my mode of not liking the WWF, and Backlund. As I watched more WWF, my thought is that he was a terrific heel in 1980. Not just coming around to thinking he was "good", but that he was pretty much a total package of heel stuff in that year. Lots of other people like that. John

Are you talking about '92? What was the very first one in NJ vs WAR? Or do you mean the very very first one in '90, which I agree had insane heat. Wasn't thinking of the 1990 match, which I tend to see as more of a "special" match like the 1979 Baba & Inoki tag than debuting with a fed. Was thinking of the 1992 stuff. Granted, the first match with the insane heat was actually on a WAR card: 10/23/92 - Korakuen Hall - WAR Card (11/21/92 NJPW TV) Tenryu & Kohki Kitahara vs. Shiro Koshinaka & Kengo Kimura (19:46) ****1/4 11/23/92 - Ryogoku Sumo Hall (12/05/92 NJPW TV - NJ Classics #545) Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa & Kitahara vs. Koshinaka & Kimura & Masashi Aoyagi (20:42) ***1/2 12/14/92 - Osaka Prefectural Gym (12/26/92 NJPW TV - NJ Classics #548) Tenryu vs. Koshinaka (20:42) **** I'd have to go back through the JWJ to see what else there might have been in there before/between those matches. Kosh & Co. worked on the undercard of the 9/92 WAR card that had Tenryu-Flair for the WWF Title, thought I don't recall if it aired on NJPW. That was probably the first blast in the NJPW-WAR feud, but not really the equiv of Tenryu being involved. The 10/23/92 match was rabid in the small hall. The 11/23/92 matches was heated as well, big setting. John

Loss did.

I like Terry telling Lano Stories over beers much better than Terry trying to pimp Tanaka and then realizing he was exagerating. John

Pimped is probably the wrong word. John

I never pimp his as a Great Worker, nor have I tried to sell anyone on that concept. I have tried to sell people on exactly what you're saying: he didn't "suck", he wasn't a guy who "couldn't work", that he didn't "need to be in there with a good worker to have a good match", etc. I do think he was a great worker of holds in that era (mid 70s through 1983). He knew how to work a ton of different holds, know how to work them in a way that engaged the crowd, and know how to work up-and-down in them in a variety of ways that picked up the crowd, be it breaking things up with a high spot or two before taking it down, or simply work "I'm Out... I'm Out... I'm Out... Noooo... I'm Back In!" to tease breaking the hold. He would work hold well with guys we don't think of as good old workers (Hogan for example), and could *really* work holds with those would could go in them(Inoki for example). He could work goofy, funky holds and counters that are close (though not stlystically as cool) as Billy Robinson's, he could go traditional old school in the range you'd see from the Funks/Briscos or Destroyer, or he could do stuff that we might think of as goofy in a late-80s into 90s context but I suspect we'd find not only common but also heat drawing in a lot of places prior to that. I'm think of his "rowing of the arm" against Muraco which got the crowd into a hold. Does anyone think Bob invented that? No... he just got trained it or picked it up and incorporated it. Does saying he was "great" in that area mean I think he was a "great worker". No. Bruce Bowen was a great defensively at his peak. Does that mean he was one of the great players in the NBA? No. Good role player, great defensive player, valuable contributor to championship teams. One hopes people can't parse things out like that. Bob had other positives, which I tend to point out as well. He was in a lot of good-to-excellent-to-great matches, and he was more than holding up his own end of them. John

Loss: might want to break off the Big Show Main Event ****+ stuff into it's own thread. There's a hell of a lot more than can be done with this. Kenta Kobashi is wondering why he's getting screwed over. And I know... it's a WCW/WWF List. Doesn't mean that more can be done with it. Including the issue of what truly is/are the main event(s) on shows. John

Quick addition note on the other thing I said earlier. Looking at the fill list and the people who were "new" to it in 1993 and 1994, my thoughts on why Dustin slipped were accurate. It's not really Dustin having off years or being thought less of relative to other WWF/WCW workers. It's a massive influx of lucha, in addition to some new & younger Japanese wrestlers, and an increase in non-WCW/WWF US wrestlers (ECW, Indies, Etc). There was a wave in 1993, then another in 1994. John

Going back to the Dustin discussion, here are the Annual Worker Polls from the Torch for 1992-94. My recollection from discussing this with Wade long ago is that the group of voters initially were pretty much the same as Dave's from 1982-90. Changed a little over the years he did it (1992-95), but Dave's also changed over the years as he added voters and others lost interest. Always was a small number of voters relative to the Annual Awards in each newsletter: Dave had in the range of 30-35 voters at the end if I recall. I don't think Wade had a large number either. I'm just tossing up the WCW/WWF guys, the Top 15 for 1993 and 1994, and a slightly lower number for 1992 which I'll explain. The # infront of the wrestler is their overall "worldwide" ranking on the list. I'm also making no judgement on where they ranked. I didn't vote in any of these years. 1992 7 Flair 8 Shawn 11 Vader 12 Bret 14 Pillman 22 Arn 26 Eaton 27 Dustin 32 Cactus 33 Austin 34 Sting I'm only going 11 deep for 1992 as I don't have the full list, or a reference to who was in it in 1992 that dropped out. The 1994 write up indentifies who dropped out form 1993 and where they ranked. One obvious person who would have been in the list in 1992 would have been Steamboat. You'll see him on the 1993 list, and pretty clearly would have been somewhere in the Top 15 of WCW/WWF workers given how hardcore fans looked at him. Probably slotted ahead of Dustin. One other likely person that would be in here is Rick Rude. Since he quit WCW in May 1994, he's not ranked in 1994. Unliked everyone else who dropped out of the rankings (such as Steamboat), Rude isn't mentioned. It's hard to imagine that he wasn't in the Top 100 in 1993 as he had some respect as a worker in the 90s among hardcore fans. So he's another candidate likely to be in here. A third likely person not listed is Barry Windham. He had the knee injury in mid-1993, which would have caused Wade to keep him off the 1993 list: Steamer went out with the injury in Aug 1994 and Wade removed him. Dittos Art Barr dying, with Wade indiacting he would have ranked strongly based on the ballots received. Dustin is "8th" among WWF/WCW workers. I think it's safe to that at least one of Rude-Steamboat-Barry was ahead of Dustin in 1992, probably two, possibly all three. So Dustin is probably either 10th or 11th. 1993 5 Vader 9 Shawn 10 Bret 11 Flair 17 Austin 19 Pillman 27 Waltman 30 Steamboat 36 Cactus 38 Janetty 42 Arn 50 Eaton 54 Owen 55 Sting 58 Dustin Again, Rude is missing from the article, and it's hard to imagine that Rude wasn't in the Top 100. But I also don't have a clear recollection of Rude's 1993 campaign. I don't think he had anything as eye catching as what he had in 1992: the feud with Steamer, the Wargames, the match with Chono. So where he ranked... who knows. Dustin is 15th here. 1994 8 Shawn 14 Bret 16 Vader 23 Waltman 31 Flair 32 Austin 38 Owen 55 Razor 56 Sting 59 Pillman 62 Finlay 73 Arn 75 Regal 80 Dustin 83 Badd Cactus was 25th, but I'm uncertain whether to toss him in. Did have the two beloved (back then) tags with the Nasty Boys. But also worked ECW, SMW and I want to say some Japan as well. So I left him out. Hakushi was 57, but Wade specifically said he rated high due to a strong year in MPro. So I left him off as well. Dustin is 14th here. We can argue about whether he should be higher or not, and I suspect that Dustin-Pillman ratings are ones people will focus on. That's not really the point that I was trying to get across earlier: Dustin was thought of as a Good Worker back in 1992-94. If one wants to draw a comp, I'd suggest people focus on this one: 6-11-12 Arn 8-15-14 Dustin Arn always was a well respected worker. He never was as beloved by hardcores as a high end worker like say Barry or Eaton at their peaks, but he was always respected. Dustin's in the same ballpark as Arn, not only in the WWF/WCW set of rankings, but also the overall rankings. I would think that evidence that Dustin was well respected as a worker in those years by these hardest of hardcore fans. John

This was a pretty solid match live. I recall the card for three other things: * TAKA has a really mediocre match against someone... so forgetable that I'd have to look up the opponent * Terry-Pogo main event that was just awful, made worse by Pogo injuring himself * after the card Funk in all seriousness telling us that Tanaka was better than the "All Japan Boys", my inability to choke down a laugh at that, and Dave having to talk Terry off that Ledge of Stupidity One of my favorite "This is why what wrestlers think about work means nothing to me" moments. John

They wrestled at the 12/95 J-Cup, and this may have played a little off it. Been a while since I watched them. Do recall that the Liger-Dragon finish played off the 12/95 finish: one extra reversal for Dragon's win. Liked that match a lot. One of the more fun moments of watching wrestling live. Kind of funny looking back and seeing that in the middle of the card, and the rest of the card being perfectly entertaining as well. Tenzan-Hash was a good storyline match. I also think it was the night we were sitting next to Koshinaka's wife and in-laws in the first row of balcony, and there's something about watching a family pop for their guy while he's working a match that's fun aswell. John

Both of these were really well done. Tenryu in New Japan was pretty freaking choice... that first tag had batshit heat. New Japan did a number of debuts well. John