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I saw the report about Heyman claiming he warned Vince about the risk of allowing Ultimate Fighter to go on Spike. I'm sure that Heyman Fans will come out of the woodworks to say that Heyman mentioned the same thing to them on the phone back in 2005. Haven't seen any articles writing up the rest. It's easier to read and laugh at Paul rather than watching him and wincing. John

In what ways?

Looks pretty cool. John

Looks like I missed my one chance to see Bryan in PWG before he returned to the WWE. I had thought they would hold him off until November for Sweeps (and also the end of Linda's campaign). John

It's fun to imagine that in 20 years people will still be arguing over how much Russo Sucked vs the Russo Rehabilitation Movement. It's a bit like people rehabbing the image of Nixon. You know... all that stuff about how Nixon may have had issues domestically, but did wonders internationally. Like dragging on the Viet Nam war for an extra four years, authorizing mass war crimes in Laos and Cambodia, the later of which paved the way for the Khmer Rouge to take over Cambodia and add another few million to the Nixon-Kissenger Body Count. Wait, I'm forgetting the toppling of President Allende in Chile and replacing him with US friendly dictator Pinochet. Yeah... that's some kick ass foreign policy. Russo will be the same way. For as long as he lives, he'll be putting himself over and excusing away all the negatives: someone else's fault. And the folks who actually tracked the horrorshow if his "greatness", or even vividly recall the details of the Raw era he takes credit for, are slowly but surly going to wander off from their interest in pro wrestling... or our memory is going to fade a bit. Folks in this thread have pointed out things I've "forgotten": thoughts of that era and of pointing out the Bullshit in Russo's thirst for credit have been pushed out of my mind. Similar to all the Bullshit about the greatness of Heyman in the late 90s and early 00s. I think in the end, Russo will get rehabbed. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up in the WON HOF when Dave Meltzer III is running it in 2070. John

The references were pretty mild, and he put Beth over really strong in the book for standing by him. On the other hand, there was a lot of "Ric Flair finding Ric Flair again" at the end of the book. What's funny is that I don't think Ric was remotely close to being open and honest about his banging and nonsense in the book (hence no references to The Flair Show in the book). So it's hard to see what of it made Beth look worse than one would have already thought: everyone knew Ric was fucking left and right over the years. He actually handled it pretty low key, and copped to it not being fair to Beth. I'm thinking the Book is less of an issue than post-book Ric banging everything in sight on the road and it being too obvious for Beth to ignore. John

Tenryu-Kosh was from 12/92. Tenryu's first singles match in NJPW, basically putting him over leading into the Dome match with Choshu.

I recall the "I Don't Want To Have The Kids Miss Me Doing A Spot" thing from Flair. What's kind of strange about it is that Ric was going 20 minutes and had plenty of time to mix in all that stuff. I don't think it's really the issue that Flair is now making it up to be. Honestly, if we try to put together a list of the Flair Spots that Ric might possibly think a fan couldn't live without, it really wouldn't add up to a lot of time. I think we all know this because at a certain point in his career Ric had pitched most everything else overboard and reduced himself to: * Flair Signature Spots * Bumping & Selling His Ass Off For The Face * Heel Shortcuts Other than perhaps in Nitro Matches and some other time impacted matches (say the Clashes and occassonal a PPV), it's not like Ric didn't have time to get to his signature spots. It's one of those things that people take for the Gospel without taking ten second to have this bubble up in there head: "So 20 minutes wasn't enough time to get to those signature spots and do other stuff? Did he really need to take that 5th back body drop and 8th hiptoss from Sting?" I'm not saying it's something that doesn't pass the laugh test... but, yeah... I do have to keep a straight face when I hear it to appear like I'm busting on Ric again. :/ John

What did Flair say about putting a match together? I've for several years talking about Flair's working style as "I've Got Stuff To Do". That's the primary focus: keep moving things along, he's got spots and stuff to do, it doesn't make a great deal of sense beyond that other than making the face look good and keeping the crowd interested. There's a slight notion of leaving the fans pissed off at the end and wanting them to come back to see him get his ass kicked the next time, but over the course of years the fans had seen that so often that it really didn't have as big of a point in drawing fans back as Flair would think. From the small bits I've seen quoted, it doesn't sound like Flair was that far off from what I was saying and which kind of annoyed people when I first tossed it out. I kind of always thought that people didn't get that my point wasn't an complete negative: Flair worked a style that engaged fans and entertained them. There really wasn't any great or deep storytelling going on, and instead Flair was extremely effective at churning out the equiv of "pulp". Perhaps what annoyed people was pointing out that Hogan was the same in the 80s: extremely effective in putting on "matches" that played to what the fans wanted to see and kept them engaged. Hardcore fans just like Flair's stuff more than Hogan's, though it didn't mean it was anymore effective work. There's always been less "great storytelling" in wrestling work that we tend to yammer about. John

Yeah, Flair loved working with Wahoo McDaniel and Ronnie Garvin for that reason. Also, Flair against the evil foreigner had worked before. Bix may be coming from the Dave side rather than what Flair was thinking. It is interesting because Dave was an even bigger fan of Bumper/Seller than he was of Stiff: I think that's what Dave popped for more in Ric, along with the charisma than just the chops. But some of that is what he liked in the US. In Japan, he did seem to like the stiff/realism element. On the Flair side... I just have a tough time figuring out why in 1988 Tenryu would jump out in Ric's mind, with no outside influence, as the Japanese guy he's want to work a PPV match with. Or that he'd even care about getting over the Japanese style in the US. It... doesn't fully add up. ======================= I would be interested in drawing the comps on other opponents of Inoki and Fujinami who would have been somewhat similar to 1981-88 Flair. Adonis? Theatrical bumper and seller, bit more spectacular on offense. Murdoch was a stooger and seller lik Flair, bumped but wasn't a bump-o-rama guy like Flair. You can kind of see Flair fitting half way between the two. What's a little interesting is that I don't know if either of those two exactly worked a classic singles with Inoki and Fujinami. Anyting that would be up there with the 7/78 Inoki-Backlund? I don't think the juniors stuff would come off well. Flair never really seemed to gell with that cutting edge style... just came across really awkward in working spots with them. Even in the 90s after having had higher end spots done to him for a number of years, he really didn't feel comfy in it. In addition, if we're thinking of Flair in a "US Touring Champ" mode over in New Japan (similar to the role he played in All Japan and that Backlund played in New Japan), it's unlikely he'd be paired up with the juniors. I don't think there was a Bob-Fujinami singles match until Fujinami moved out of the juniors. Some tags, but I don't think many. There never was a Bob-Tiger Mask. I just wouldn't expect much of it. Against the gaijin... Bob did have several matches, some of them rather good (vs Dusty and vs Hansen). They seemed to keep Bob away from Andre in a singles, even with Andre the heel. That is likely what would have happened with Flair. Still, if it did happen... Heel Flair vs Heel Andre... I'm just not seeing a good match. That's not because Andre didn't have watchabl/good matches in New Japan. Just don't see the two meshing together very well given their heel roles. Hansen worked because it was these two monster kicking the shit out of each other. Some of the Andre-Fujinami and Andre-Inoki matches worked because of that small native babyface against the gaijin monster dynamic... when Ric played "small vs big" it was stooging his ass off for the big muscle head. Don't know how that works with heel Andre. It's challenging to figure out how an NWA Champ would fit into New Japan from 1981-88. ========================== I never thought of Savage as small. He's, what, at least 6'2"? He's about the same size as Stone Cold, albeit a tiny bit thinner around the midsection. In any other territory in the world, Savage would never have looked small. That's more of an indictment of how ridiculously size-obsessed Vince was back in the 80s than anything else. Totally agree: it very much was a WWF thing where Randy was "small" relative to a tall 300+ babyface champ. I'm not sure Randy is 6-2 unless he wore lifts (which is possible). He looked a fair amount shorter than Hogan in their 1986 series. The thing with Savage is kind of what I pointed out: he worked largely than life. Even moreso than Flair, who looked even smaller opposite Hogan and frankly never very credible. Savage just had something in how he worked, how he carried himself, a certain intensity. I don't think it's all a function of his sticking out in a cartoony WWF. John

I'm remembering the long series of letters that led to Wade and Dave's letter & addition. John

I wonder sometimes how much of the Flair-Tenryu stuff was either Dave projecting or Dave talking to Ric and putting it in Ric's head (or via Ross). Does anyone really think Tenryu made a big impression on Ric in his limited number of matches they had? I'm not even sure how many matches they had against each other after Tenryu allegedly got good" in 1985 - Even a handful? Or that Ric was watching tapes of Tenryu working a harder style? It always struck me as bizzaro when I came across those late 1988 and early 1989 WON's. The comments fit much more closely into WON Think than into what you would expect someone in the business to think. John

There was the February 10 Tokyo Dome where he was in the big draw on the card. But as far as AJ proper, yeah not much. NJ definitely had better things in mind by '89, I mean Choshu put Hash over at the Tokyo Dome! That was an odd match. Tigersawa and Takano sort of played off "former juniors, one still masked"... but there really wasn't a great dynamic for the pairing. They also didn't have a great deal to do with their respective partners. Perhaps Kawada and Sasaki were too low ranked to be put in the match, but that would have made more sense on the Mentor-Pupil matche up. But yeah... Choshu was a man with the plan. I don't know if Kawada was on ascent in the second half of 1989 and early 1990. It's like he made a jump with Footloose in 1988, then was forced into a spot above his station in the Tag League. That "worked out" on some level, but in the first half of 1989 Baba seems to have not liked what he saw in the Tenryu-Kawada pairing opposite Jumbo-Yatsu and when with Hansen for a Super Team. No doubt it wasn't a long term pairing... but in All Japan what does that mean? 2 years? 3 years? Who would have thought that Jumbo and Yatsu would stick together for as long as they did? Kawada got dropped back into being focused on the All Asian Tag, and got kind of lucky that the Can-Ams came across at that point and things clicked. Pretty typical Kawada: luck and making the most out of it, even if it hit another ceiling. That's kind of the story of his career... eventually the ceiling became something of a anti-luck. Can-Am feud was great. Really hard to define any specific thing that put Kawada on the map. I think the pairing with the Revolution and getting TV time was the initial thing. The feud with Nakano & Takano might have been the next thing... though it's strange, I don't see the first title change on Dan's 1988 set. I could swear I've seen an older JIP version of the match on I want to say one of the Munari K-Tapes, if not elsewhere. It had to be out there because it was on Bowdren's list... I think? Anyway, that was a jump. What's odd is how few of the tag title matches made TV in 1988. That began to change in 1989. Obviously pairing with Tenryu in the 1988 tag league was another step up. I don't know if the feud with the Can-Ams was *bigger* than that or made a bigger impact. Great matches. The ones in the 90s would be: * pairing with Misawa * TC challenge of Jumbo and not flunking the test * Budokan TC challenge of Hansen which won a MOTY (not saying it deserved it) * challenging Misawa marking the first time the next generation would solo main event Budokan * going opposite of Misawa After that... I don't know if there were any significant jump ups. Major moments of his career, but they largely played off the last one. The one missing was a long run (as in a year) with the belt before AJPW split up. Didn't happen... probably never was in the plans to ever happen. The matches opposite Sasaki were big, but if we're honest it was an NJ-AJ thing and at that very moment if you dropped a still-in AJPW Misawa into the match (or a match against one of the other top NJ guys), it would have been even bigger. I'm rambling. John

I don't think Baba really pushed him above a certain level through 1989, and it largely looked like a dead end slot. Hansen moving over to team with Tenryu in 1989 was a clear sign that Kawada wasn't an "acceptable" partner for Tenryu on a World Tag Title level. Instead, Kawada stuck with Fuyuki and had the hot feud with the Can-Ams. One thing we can say is that the All Asia Tag Title got pushed like it never had before, at least that I can see. It certainly wasn't pushed on TV much from 1984 through a certain point in 1988. Kawada & Fuyuki changed that. But I'm not really sure it's a sign of Baba using it as a way to get Kawada air ime because he had a long term plan for him. I think it's a bit clearer that Baba always had a long term plan for Misawa to eventually get push up higher. It being Baba, there wasn't much of a rush to it: he moved out of his very brief fling as a junior in late 1985 and by 1989 he was still largely spinning his wheels in terms of a push. We can point to little things here and there, but from a continuing push and storylines, it was pretty spotty and inconsistent after that early feud with Kabuki. When he came back from the long injury at the start of 1990, he really wasn't up to much of anything interesting until Tenryu gave notice he was leaving. It was a bit of a strange thing: the Babas didn't want him dead ended into being a junior, but didn't have any ongoing plans for him after he moved out. Just a long term plan that eventually he'd get pushed. With Kawada, there wasn't even that. He got half lucky by circumstances, and half made the most of those circumstances. The Footloose got affilliated with the Tenryu & Hara Revolution. It kind of was an All Japan Ishingundan, but that didn't mean that it would amount to anything for people not named Tenryu & Hara. Choshu's group in All Japan devolved in little time to largely just being Choshu & Yatsu getting strong pushes, with Kobayashi fading as his feud with Tigersawa went its course, while Animal wasn't used as well as he could have been. Beyond the six man tags, he was involved in a number of All Asia Tag Title matches... and I don't think any of them made TV. So Kawada & Fuyuki being part of the Revolution really wasn't a promise of anything other than being the jobber in six man tags. All the credit in the world for them getting over strongly and busting their asses off, to the point that Baba and NTV started putting them on more then past All Asia champs. Dittos for him busting his ass in the 1988 Tag League when Hara went out, even if the company decided he wasn't strong enough to partner with Tenryu long term. The effort got him over with the fan base, and seemingly with the front office as someone they could show on TV. Teaming with Misawa was more of the same: good luck, and hard work. Being "small" opposite Jumbo was a role that worked, and in turn since he was senior to Taue he was the one who generally got the better of Taue in their feud which helped ease some of the "size" issues. Mix in the style he worked, and learning to find his way to work with Gordy, Doc and Hansen in addition to Jumbo... it worked out. But there wasn't really a plan. Less so that the vague one for Misawa, and not close to what New Japan seemed to be thinking of for Mutoh, Hashimoto and Chono. I get the sense that by 1989 that Choshu knew where he was heading with those three, if not exactly in pretty good general terms. John

I'm a little disappointed in Keith that he didn't post is cagesideseats.com piece over in the Flair Thread in Bruce's forum.

Ouch!

There were wrestling mags in the 60s and the 50s. The ones in the 50s may not have gotten much circulation, but the ones in the 60s were wide enough that Yohe got them out here in Los Angeles. Their content was pretty spot on for what the Apter mags did. I don't know when Bill joined the Weston mags, but I'm not sold that there was any major "revolution" in the wrestling mag business after he joined. They were perhaps more prolific: Weston went to several "monthly" mags, I think at the peak it was four. In a sense they were publishing "weekly" just under different magazine names, and with the different mags featuring some of their own regular items (such as the centerfold bio in PWI while another one got Starcade from 1983 through most of the 80s) while sharing other items (the rankings were in pretty much the same format in each, and you could get "weekly" rankings if you got all the mags). I'm not sure how regularly the ones in the 60s published, or if anyone else employed the same method of publishing weekly. I suspect that most of the wrestling mag published had multiple titles. We also don't know how much of a force Weston was, or Bill, or the other people involved in it were. Dave may have dealt with Bill a bit... though I'm not sure if any of us know the depth or scope of his role there. I know that when I dealt with the PWI guys for one of their yearbooks, it wasn't with Bill at all but Stu Sacks as I recall. And he was a bit smarter and more reasonable that I think us smart fans would have thought. Even that Dean Malenko thing had some thought behind it, though it probably didn't help Dean much within the company. This

Heh. This made more sense at the time, even a bit in hindsight if one puts themselves in a 1988/89 mindset. All Japan very much changed in 1990 when Tenryu left and Misawa got pushed up. Then when Jumbo went out, Misawa became the Man and Kawada was a natural rival. The size shift was rather strong from 1989 to 1992: Misawa was shorter and smaller than Jumbo, while Kawada was shorter and smaller than Tenryu. Pretty similar to what happened in the US as well. Hennig was very small relative to Hogan and really looked like a lightweight in his matches against Hulk. Not that Lanny helped much. At that same size, Hennig would been a terrific heel opposite Bret in 1993-96 or against Shawn in 1996. I don't think anyone would have been "wrong" in 1990 saying Curt was too small to work on top opposite Hogan: it's just the wa the product was at the moment. We might be able to point to Savage as an exception, since one of the things that stands out when watching him against Hogan in 1986 was that Randy was quite small. But the thing that also stands out is that Savage wrestled "larger than life". At the time he just commanded attention and had "it" in the ring in an off the charts way. You know how there are some actors who draw you attention even when they're in the background of a scene? That was Randy, and it wasn't even as if he was grandstanding for attention like Shawn circa 1995. Kawada... he just was small relative to Jumbo, Tenryu, Hansen and Gordy. I started watching puroresu in January 1989, dug the Footloose and especially Kawada... but I never thought he would go much higher. Even in something as great as the 10/91 challenge of Jumbo, Kawada came across as the scrappy small guy who was out of his league with The Man. I think that changed a bit in 1992 with his challenges of Stan and Misawa, even though Stan kicked the shit out of him. At that point one started to see that Kawada would fit into the rotation of TC challengers, especially when Misawa eventually ended up being the top guy. John

Takada had a central role for Hustle. John

Does Dave honestly think the Heat won't have a good year? Did he watch the team that Bron led to 127 wins the last two seasons? Hell, the Heat went 47-35 last year and made this deal: LeBron James & Chris Bosh & Mike Miller & Juwan Howard & Zydrunas Ilgauskas for Michael Beasley & Quentin Richardson & Dorell Wright & Dorell Wright While retaining seven players off last year's roster. Uh... yeah... they're going to be good. As a Lakers Fan, they worry me... and the Lakers are still at the moment the best team in the NBA. Any times you can worry the best, you are *good*. So the Heat-Oscar analogy doesn't work beyond "they're draws". Oscar was washed up. The Heat are entering their peak as a franchise. Wildly different things. John

Roids or HGH or both if she was a female bodybuilder and fitness model as Keith indicated. John

I'm remembering... ouch... it was brutal. John

Didn't have a fucking thing to do with it. Vince had to find something to blame other than his own shitty product. That's always been the case. I also don't buy the "distracted" concept. They were "distracted" when putting Nash on top for a year? The reality is that what worked in the 80s stopped working and the product didn't successfully move forward. Before anyone says that Hogan was 80s and ended up successful in WCW, things didn't really take off until *Heel* Hogan showed up... which was very *not* hot 80s. WCW and the WWF got hot when they moved away from trying to completely recreate the 80s, and also had product that "didn't suck" to a large number of fans. The trial was July 1994. The major decline of the WWF came *after* that point. Again, Vince and others like to find reasons for the company's suckage that absolves their own genius from blame. The timeline for their reasons rarely matches up with the specific suckage. John

WOW... yeah, that was it: WOW Magazine Just 1999 to 2001. And then bought out by thepublished of the Apter Mags and promptly folded. He now does some rare freelance for the Apter Mags, and also works for Bob.com. Would this all sort of be like Takada losing to Gracie and (according to someone) embarassing his whole WON HOF credentials? John

I only vaguley remember the Ashley fuck up. Can you give us the cliff notes refresher, Bix? John