jdw

Addendum... One wishes the loons around the net who are trying to say Nancy may have killed Daniel and then Chris snapped on her would just shut the fuck up. Bix has pointed out elsewhere - time of death isn't difficult to establish, especially if they are as spread out as the appear to be in this case. John

Following up on Bix's post, and dragging over what I wrote on tOA: I've seen in several places that Wade Keller's audio update (subscription req) reported several hours prior to TMZ. I tend to give it credibility. From the comments of the DA, and having seen them fuller in the CNN clip, it's clear from the crime scene that Nancy and Daniel were murdered. The only question was whether it was triple homicide or murder-suicide. While he was specific that they weren't ruling out a triple homicide, the comments about the murder-suicide and that they weren't looking for anyone else... one could tell that they were 99.99% certain what they were seeing. Fake suicides are hard to successfully stage in the midst of a triple homicide. Given Chris athletisism, there likely would have been a give-away sign - signs of a struggle, or a blow to the head before anyone could try to stage it. Those are things homicide dicks instantly look for. Given the body tempts could give a very clear indication of the times of death, and obviously Chris' being well after Nancy's... if Chris was found in a fashion that reflected suicide (and the Keller/TMZ report is such a fashion), the likelihood of something other than sucide is essentially nil. This is a brutal story. John

Hard to respond to as well. The earlier "theories" were among the obvious ones to draw from the small group of "possibilities". When Cheetah called around 8:30 PT with me having not heard/read about it yet, once she got past the Chris, Nancy and their son are dead part, my first question was "Accident?" When she said no, my reponse was along the line of "Oh god... muder-suicide?" It's brutal... it's not something any of us really want to face... but it's there. John

From dealing with both more than probably anyone who posts here, neither had the desire to be part of the business beyond the roles they played. The differnce between the two on that aspect is that Wade was probably more realitic/self aware of his role in the business. Dave at times didn't see how deep in he was. If a journalism major, working on a doctorate, were to do it on Wrestling Journalism and spend years studying it *and* had full disclosure from a variety of key wrestling reporters like Wade and Dave, it would be both an interesting study/thesis, but also rather enlightening in the area of standard journalistic practices where "wrestling reporters" move into the grey area or simply go past it. Some are obvious, such as Scherer being a house organ for ECW or RYDER being a paid house organ for WCW while both claimed to be reporters. The Meltzer and Keller areas would be interesting, though they are some of the things we also see in the real world in politics and reporting. John

I suspect it's likely that Loss would rather have a broomstick shoved up his ass than have his sight considered a "TSM Spinoff". John

Just what the WWE needs - a run by the useless Sid. It's a sad world where Liz ends up dying while the Sid's and Lugers of the world keep right on living. John

Fixing werstling matches had nothing to do with exciting the fans. Fixing/working predates the era of wrestling becoming a spectator sport and instead being a gambling and "fleecing the marks of their gambling money" sport. Since wrestling became a "spectator sport", or more correctly "entertainment", it has regularly altered it's form and style in attempts to draw fans. Even from region to region having differing styles. John

Since writing that, we re-watched the When Worlds Collide match at the last KOC. It brought back how Panther was exceptional again as a second there. The big payoff was a slow burn, perfectly tying in not only to what happened early in the match, but also to the prior Panther-Love Machine feud. I love work like that by managers and seconds. You have some managers like Albano and Heyman who think the who thing is about themselves. The hog the spotlight, taking it off the people they're managing, and often do a poor job of getting across their own guy or the match that's going in. Cornette at his best was one who walked the fine line almost to perfection. He was a critical component of "The Midnight Express with Jim Cornette" trio. Part of the psych of the trio was to get heat on Jimbo, and often for the babyfaces to get payback in a way that had him stooging his ass off. But even while drawing so much attention, go back and watch a best of the MX+Corny tape and pay attention to what Jimmy does. He's always trying to get across his own team, not just in a "writing checks that their asses cann't cover" fashion, but in getting across their *skill*. In matches, there are always some spots that draw loads of attention to him. But there are also all those Tag Team 101 spots that he helps with the put more heat on the *match*. Distraction spots are basic tag team work. With Jimmy there, it doesn't always fall on the heel wrestlers to do it - Jimmy can slide in there to either draw the refs attention, or cheese off the face on the outside at just the right time to draw him away from being in position for a hot tag. Lots of managers would try similar things. Jimmy had just the right way of doing it so that it wasn't always a Look At Me! spot. The MX vs. Fans at Clash 1 is just a perfect example of how great Jimmy was at ringside... along with how down the four wrestlers were with their roles and tag team work. There are better tag matches than it. But it's a wonderful match to study because while it condenses so much down to a short match length, it still retains a tag team match layout that builds to certain highs without feeling rushed. It's probably the greatest Nitro Style match of all-time. It's a bit like Vader not letting the limitations of a Strap Match get in the way of him having a great match with Sting. Here, Jimbo, Bobby, Tommy and the Boyz looked at the amount of clock time they were being given, and seemed to say, "No problem... we can still wrestle a *match* in that amount of time. Let's rock..." Okay... I'm rambling, and totally in the wrong year as well. John

Here goes. Smooth's comment quoted by me as a springboard, then Smooth's follow up that does a good job of rounding out Jerry. I don't know if you came in later, Jose. That was a long ass thread and one blows up fast trying to sift through it. ------------------ jdw Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: The SC top 444 wrestlers of all time countdown! Smoove Luv B wrote: What's funny about Jerry is that when he would come out, the fans would really love the guy. He was a Rudo... but he was a lovable Rudo to start out with. I literally watched a woman in the front row next to us hold up a her baby for Jerry to give a kiss to... which Jerry did with a big dopey babyface smile. Of course at some point during the match, if it was his role, he'd do something to drive the fans nuts. But for a guy with a sleazy pornstar scumbag vibe, the fans really loved him as their sleazy pornstar scumbag Rudo. One of the things I love about Jerry in trios is that he was an old pro master of the form. Lots and lots and lots of trios have a primary storyline to tell - Technico X and Rudo A are going to beat the snot out of each other to heat up their coming singles match. Now Technico B and Rudo Y might be longstanding rivals, while Technico C and Rudo Z have a little issue as well. But the main storyline was that Technico X and Rudo A were going to be on the mic at the end challenging each other back and forth. Jerry was a master of both the Rudo A and Rudo B & C roles. As a Rudo A, he would lay down all the early spots of the feud with Technico X... and mix in some comedy and so high spots. But overall he would slow build it to just snapping off like a motherfucking in the 3rd fall for the hate to go over the top between the two, making the fans really want to see these two get into a single match. Lots of luchadors are good at this because it's not too tough to shine when the spotlight is on. Jerry was very, very, very good at this, though, as he just knew how to lay it all out from start to finish, and the point where he or the babyface snapped off seemed to have some of the best intense edge to it in lucha. As Rudo B & C... I think there are few better than Jerry that I've seen. There are two ways that role can go wrong - sleepwalking through the match since it has nothing to do with you, or shining so brightly that you step on the focus of the match. Jerry walked the middle ground perfectly. He brought out the signature spots, he sold, he did comedy... but he picked his spots then blended back well when it was time for the primary storyline to take centerstage. He also helped sell for the central storyline, and even at times lead some of the younger, less swift guys into what needed to be done next to get their primary storyline over. There were some guys that you would look at and say were masters of certain things in lucha. Blue Panther and Fuerza Guerrera were the best second that I ever saw live... to the point we were down in Mexicali that when Fuerza came out to second someone in a singles match that I leaned over to the person I was sitting next to and told him to keep an eye on Fuerza and how he works the second role like the best managers in the US work the manager role - enhancing the match, picking it up at times when it needs help, but not stepping on what's going on in the ring to get himself over. And that's exactly what Fuerza did. In the Volador vs. Mysterioso mask match in TJ, I said the same thing to Keller about Panther coming out to back Mysterioso... with not a clue of how Pena booked the finish. And of course Panther was off the charts there... the *perfect* person to put in that role since he would know exactly how to play it, set it up and then deliver the high spot. Jerry... he's a master of the trios form. I'm not saying he's the best trios worker I've ever seen. But he's a bit like Arn Anderson or Toshiaki Kawada in mastering the tag team form in their respective countries - they might not be the "best" tag workers, but they really know the form, how to play their roles and what needs to be done in those matches. John ---------------- Smoove Luv B Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: The SC top 444 wrestlers of all time countdown! This is one of the great things about lucha, that structurally you can have awesome matches even if you have huge holes in your game. Estrada could bump with anyone ever and John did a fantastic job outlining what you might call his mental approach—but that and his charisma were all he had. I can't really remember Estrada ever pulling off a great mat sequence or any kind of offensive move that didn't involve nearly killing himself falling from somewhere; had a good punch but not a great one by the standards of where he was working; wasn't particularly fast; wasn't a horse to where twenty minutes into a match he'd still be going strong. A guy with the equivalent skills and an equivalent look couldn't get out of the indies in Japan and would be a jobber in America; lucha accomodated what he could do.

The politics were a bit of the first part of the year with Scott. After that, I don't recall a lot other than (a) Steamer getting screwed, and ( the baggy not being liked. But other than that, it was one of the less nutty politics year. 1990 and 1991 were where all hell broke loose, and it would continue on from there. The 1989 WONs were great reads when I first got them. I think in hindsight it would be an interesting year to write about (along with 1990) less for how it was seen then but how one can see it now looking back. John

The Yearbooks are worth having. The 1986 one is pretty lightweight, and the 1987 (Best of the first five years) isn't as good as one would think. The 1988, 1989 and 1990 were all good reads. 1982 is really just the first issue. Worth having if you're collecting everything, but as a stand alone doesn't give you much. 1983 and 1984 are yearbooks/issues on the old (1983-85) original format of the WON. Worth having, but they don't have as many added items of interest as the 1988-90 ones. 1985 was actually just an issue of the WON, not disimilar to now. It was a hard one to track down for some reason... one of the last of all of them that I picked up in the early 90s. Probably the least essential of all of them, just for collectors/completists. The 1989 Yearbook was "the" collectors item back in the day, along with the Who's Who book. Dave's opening piece on the decade and Bowdren's Top 100 were seen as great reference items. They age... oddly. The 1990 Yearbook had a "Top Stories of the Year" section that at the time looked like one of the better things Dave had done. I haven't read it in a while, and don't know how well it holds up. At the very least it does give a good idea of what was seen as the the top stories of the year at the time, and what he thought of them. To a degree one wishes he continued doing at least that in the following years. Wade does it, but Wade is focused on just the US. Whether one agrees with Dave or disagrees with him, having a quick reference of the top stories of a given year in one place is useful. John

Hmmm... 07/06/97: Bret & Owen Hart, Jim Niedhart, Davey Smith, & Brian Pillman beat Steve Austin, Ken Shamrock, Goldust, & The Legion of Doom (24:31) when Owen pinned Austin. Sort of the obvious one. John

Whenever I turn my attention to 1980s Crockett, Flair will likely annoy the fuck out of me. John

I don't think you read very carefully. Gordi: "You say that Brody never drew anywhere!" jdw: "Uh... I've always pointed to him drawing very well in St. Louis, and being a decent through not earth shattering draw in Japan." Gordi: "You dismiss every positive he had!" jdw: "Er..." *looks back at what I wrote* "Er..." I don't think Brody Fans slow down to read what I'm saying. They quickly get defensive at criticism. John

Let's see... where were we... I assume you jdw'd that and meant "didn't". Brody had a pre-Taker cartoonish look and presence. I guess if Taker was "awesome" in those areas, perhaps Brody was. I never sported wood over Taker's gimmick, though I'm willing to admit it was a good one for him. So did Hogan. Vastly better. That's one of the problems with the "gets oneself over with the crowd" concept. People want to apply it to the wrestlers they want to pimp as great workers, but when you see Hogan over there to the side waving "What about me, Brutha?" they just turn away and pretend not to notice. Eh. I'm not sold either of those guys were great workers. And that's from someone who's enjoyed several Andre matches over the years, even when he was shot. Yep. Much like the Hulkster worked for even more people. PWI does goofy things. It always has. I think being dead helped Brody there. After all, he rated two spots ahead of his better partner. If one actually read PWI and their sister mags back in the 1983-88 time frame, Brody really didn't get much of a push on a weekly and monthly basis. I've mentioned his push as an opponent of Flair's as being par for the course for Flair Challengers in the era. Many challengers got far more run. Ones that got less would be the Wendel Cooleys of the world. Guys like Kerry Von Erich got vastly more, even if we limit it to just being opposite Flair. Brody's death didn't come up in the conversation when we hit Brody. It was little more than: DM: "Yes." DM: *flips to the next page of the Gong Wrestler 1000* Of course Dave is Brody's biggest fan this side of Larry M. It's like getting unbiased analysis of Kawada out of me. The WWE has made a lot of Figures. Brody in the various video games is Brody. Then again, I have several video games from Japan that have Davey Boy Smith in them. I stipulate that Brody was a far bigger star in Japan than Davey. But I wouldn't cite being in a video game as meaning a great deal. Brody left All Japan because Choshu's Army and then the Road Warriors showed up in All Japan in early 1985. He saw the handwriting on the wall and jumped. Only a mark would buy that Brody jumped just because Inoki threw a wad of cash at him. Even Dave back in the day didn't write it up like that. I dont' think I've ever said he was "nothing". Simply that he was wildly overrated, and in some circles still is. Over time that will change. Brody Fanboys were once the majority among hardcores. That isn't the case anymore, though there still remain plenty. In another 10 years they'll be few. John

His furry boots were swank~! I never can figure out why people always toss out "personal" when people are being critical of something. "X has something personal against Y. That's why he's ragging on him." It's far easier to roll that out rather than deal with the criticism. I've seen a number of matches where Brody flat out sucked in the ring. I think his performance in the Hansen & Brody vs. Steamboat & Youngblood match was nothing less than a selfish, egotistcal embarassment. It's hardly the only one. Did he always suck in the ring? No. Well, I almost always point to him doing very good business in St. Louis. And then I point out that once you get past St. Louis, it's hard to find anywhere that he did really bang up business. Solid or par for the course at the best, a strong show here and there, and then it gets hard to find. I don't think Dave has every really pointed to where, outside of St. Louis, where Brody moved a ton of tickets. *snip* I'll hit the rest later since I need to run... John

No. John

Shutting down the whole developmental was 1-2 sentences in a 12 page issue. Dave's written about developmental in the past. It's not a terribly fresh story. It's also Jody Hamilton, and I could give a flying fuck about him. John

Beats me as far as now - haven't read the Torch in a while, and don't have a good sense of who Dave or Wade's primary sources are at the moment. In the 90s and early 00s, I think the difference would be: (a) Wade seemed a bit more willing to buy opinion of certain of his sources even if it didn't add up ( b ) Dave would sort of ignore criticism of certain of his sources The classic example of the first was Wade's passionate critism of Jericho on just about everything once he hit the WWF. I'm not the biggest Jericho fan in the world, so it's not like I haven't been critical of Chris over the years. But Wade's sources in the WWF at the time were so critical of Jericho that it dripped off the pages and Wade was pretty obtuse about the positives Chris brought to the table in a promotion where the objective is to make cash. In the 90s, Dave was more than willing to laugh in someone's face, or toss a "nah" at them, if they offered up tripe like what was being spooned to Wade on Jericho. "Tanaka is as good as the All Japan boys." -Terry Funk *laughing* -Dave *trying to keep a straight face* -jdw The example of the second would be the pretty uncritical coverage of Ross over the years in the WON, or Dave burying his head when Corny threatened to kill Bruce, or I suspect people could point to his coverage of Tenay in TNA right now. I don't watch TNA so I can't judge Mike's work there. But I do read a fair amount of critical comments about his work there online, and I can't remember the last time Dave said anything critical of Mike in the WON. A weak doesn't go by where JBL doesn't eat a shot, and anyone who replaces Ross temporarily on RAW takes it in the shorts from Dave, and Michael Cole has been hammered over the years. You'd think Mike would screw up on occassion, or that Dave might offer up some critical analysis. Wade actually has pissed off and lost sources for being critical of them. With Dave, it would seem like people in the business would read more into something than was actually there and overract. With Wade, it tended to be pretty direct criticism and the people feeling like he wasn't being loyal. So... It's hard to define "favortism" towards sources. Mr. Schemer of course showed more favortism towards his sources than either of them, as did RYDER. John

I think with some there's been a feeling that Dave is marketing issues off deaths. Is he? Yes. Is he ghoulish about it? I don't know. Perhaps I'm use to it now that the updates pimping obits don't make any impact on me. Do I give a shit? Sure. Largely because they're one of the things I tend to find interesting in the WON. Dave may end up having 70 issues this years. The ones that I tend to read with some interest and care are largely the obits. The rest is generally "crapped reading material" - as in stuff you read while taking a crap, or while doing something similar. Standing in line ordering food. In line at the bank. While taking my nightly walk if it's still light out. That's not to say what he writes is garbage. But the 900th itteration of "Vince Is Nuts And Changes His Mind On A Daily Basis" itsn't terribly interesting at the moment. Orton having problems isn't interesting at all - he's had them before. Etc. The Obits are worth reading, even when I disagree with them. Some of the MMA stuff is readable. A bit of the WWE here and there is readable. But large chunks of the newsletter are skim material, similar to reading The Sporting News. So I tend to enjoy the obits. It makes bitching about his marketing of them a bit tough on my part. John

Bix - thanks for posting. For a "meltdown", I don't think Wade's off base... or off base by much. Knowing both Wade and Dave over the years, and a fair amount of what they put into their product, I understand where he's coming from. John

I clicked on this hoping to see some discussion on the match... you know... people having actually seen the match and talking about it and whether I need to track it down. ? John

Are you calling me a liar, John? I said I don't recall him ever getting a #1 spot in PWI. They did a weekly Top 10's that one could compile if you got all the mags. Flair had Tiger Wood like runs with the #1 spot, dropping out of it when he'd drop the title for a cup of coffee, then take it back. When they finally moved Hogan ahead of him at some point in the 80s, it was a "big deal" in the PWI family. Brody was barely a blip in the rankings. My thought would be that whatever year you've got Brody at the top of a ranking in the family, that you count up the number of covers Brody appeared on that year and comp it with Luger. Lex, while in Florida, got more PWI run than Brody did. Why? Because stories and covers were done to sell mags. Lex got the "next big thing" push with the belief (and likely results) that it would sell mags. Brody didn't. Why? Most fans around the country in the 80s either didn't give a shit about him or didn't know who he was. He really was a blip on the radar at that point. Again - it's not just Lex getting a bigger mag push. Jerry Lawler was consistently in the mags getting a push. John

I don't recall Brody ever getting a #1 spot in PWI. I had most of the 1983-89 issues of their various mags before pitching them after getting the WON. Brody got the same push as most major 1984-85 Flair opponents. A cover or two with Flair in the picture. The Weston award happened to be given when Brody was killed. That often was the reason folks got the award - dying. I would put it this way: Lex Luger got a vastly bigger and more sustained push in 1986-87 than I ever saw Brody get. Brody's pushes would be about as big as Lawler's (i.e. a regional guy), but far less consistent since Jerry constantly had some storyline going in Memphis. Brody would just zone out of coverage for months on end. John

I missed that. What can that be found? John