jdw

There's a bit of truth to this. Paul Bearer talked about it in one of his ROH shoot interviews. it was Jake's last night with the company and didn't want to get beat clean with the Tombstone in the middle of the ring. Therefore, he changed the finish to where Taker tombstoned him on the floor and then rolled him in the ring to get pinned. According to Paul Bearer, Vince was furious over this and blamed Taker since he couldn't do anything to Jake. I can't remember the exact details but that was pretty much it. Thanks. Between that, the 2 unapproved bladejobs by Flair and Bret, and Sid kicking out of Hogan's legdrop because Wippleman (or Papa Shango - can't remember) was late for the dq-causing run-in, this was one headache of a night for Vince..... Attendance was also disappointing for Vince.

That Spike is dumping TNA? Or other aspects of the story? Or the GWF nonsense?

Haven't watched them in ages, but the last time I did, I thought at least one of them was decent. Not *****+++ that some ECW Fanboys were calling them, but a perfectly decent/good match. Would agree that collectively they were rated higher than I would have snowflaked them at the time. Ultimo at Starcade? Again, it's been ages... but I recall liking it at the time. The Eddy-Dean match the people tend to like in recent years is the Hostile City Showdown one. That came out the most liked when people here sat through all the 1995 one. It goes 25+ minutes. The problem is that they kept going to the well on long matches, and it didn't hold up.

I was going to write something, but for a rare time thought I'd read the rest of the thread. I'm glad to see my name was dragged in before I could post it, Tim.

You need to look at the other side as very TNA: Jeffey going out and finding another money mark to keep his own, personal TNA Dreams alive It's a wonderful split in the road: the choice between Old School Jeffey Money Marks (The Carters) vs New School Jeffey Money Marks (Past His Prime Keith). Classic. John

Good lord... that's a hoot. I'd also love to know what Russo has done over the years for Spike to hate him so much that they would care if he was a "consultant" with TNA. I get the lying part, which certainly would be a problem. But that Spike would want him 100% away from TNA on every level... that takes some pissing off to demand. Does anyone have a copy of the e-mail so we can see the level of Russo involvement?

That was kind of cool. Likely Baba let them take the titles back to the US for some photo opps.

Seeing full cards isn't terribly relevant to how the tag titles compare to the singles titles. Many of the same guys in the 80s hold the tag titles that hold the singles titles, so it's not like an MSG card where the Samoans hold the Tag Title while Patera holds the IC and they all can be defended. In April 1984 they create the PWF Tag Title to go full boat with the titles that they'll have until 1988/89 when they start merging them together. So take a look at the next major show they run: 07/31/84 Budokan Genichiro Tenryu p Alexis Smirnoff AWA World Title: Rick Martel DCO Jumbo Tsuruta PWF Title: Giant Baba p Stan Hansen to win title * Jumbo is the Int'l champ. * Hansen is the PWF champ * Tenryu is the UN champ * Int'l Tag Title is vacant with Jumbo & Tenryu chasing it * Hansen & Brody are the PWF Tag champs The Int'l Title isn't being defended because Jumbo is trying to get the AWA Title back. The UN Title isn't being defended because Tenryu defended it earlier in the week on the same card as Jumbo's Int'l defense. They could have placed it on this, but it was common to spread the title defense around a bit to draw. Int'l Tag Title can't be on the line because Jumbo is occupied with the AWA Title challenge. The PWF Tag Title can't be on the line because Hansen is occupied with the PWF defense, and Brody isn't even on the series. The card below these match is pretty insignificant, that's even counting the Jr. defense since it's around Mighty's waist, which makes for a "down" period of the belt in AJPW. * * * * * On where the tag "rank" relative to singles titles, technically "below": PWF/Int'l > Int'l Tag This was technically the case in JWA as well. In terms of "push", it can vary over the course of a year or years. The Int'l Tag Title clearly got a massive push at the start of 1986 because it was an avenue to get Jumbo, Choshu and Tenryu all in the ring with a title on the line. But that push was initially resolved by early March, at which point the focus was transitioned to Hansen vs Choshu and Hansen vs Jumbo. There are 10 title matches involving those combos between 3/29/86 and 10/21/86, and the Int'l Tag Title is off doing less important things. Interestingly enough, one the Hansen vs Jumbo/Choshu stuff is done (Jumbo wins the Int'l Title back from Hansen on 10/21/86), a week later we have a Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu Int'l Tag Title match as a lead-in to the Tag League. Going back before that, you'll run into similar things. There were times where the Tag Title match for the series was the bigger, more attractive one than the PWF (or Int'l in JWA) ones. They were more exceptions to rules, but they also weren't so uncommon that it's mind blowing to see the Int'l Tag Title pushed more in a series. For example, the entire New Year Series in 1969 was built around Baba & Inoki vs Hodge & Snyder. That doesn't mean the other titles (Int'l Title, All Asia Tag Title, Oki's All Asian Title) didn't have their moments. But the Int'l Tag Title was then anchor that series. The UN Title was below the Int'l Tag Title, and of course the Int'l Title. But Baba was also smart to let it shine at times. The series where Billy lifted the UN Title from Jumbo, and Jumbo was expected to get the title back at the big card, was devoid of Int'l and Int'l Tag defenses. Spotlight on Jumbo, in a year where a decent amount of the spotlight was on him. John

Sorta, kinda. It wasn't a Day/Night, Black/White, 0:1 moment on how they were positioned to one another. Like I said the last time this came up: And on the last point as shown earlier in this thread, when Baba challenged to get the PWF back from Hansen, it was the Main Event on the big card rather than Jumbo challenged Martel to get back a World Title while the Jumbo-Martel Int'l Title was thrown on a lesser earlier in the series. Jumbo was elevated up to #1, but Baba gently moved himself over to #1-A.

So is there an MKJ "mistaken" e-mail aspect to this? Saw a reference on fb, but haven't chased around the net looking for what it was about.

There's also the PWF Tag Titles. There were kind of the Monster Gaijin Titles, given to Hansen & Brody and then Hansen & DiBiase. 1987 became a bit of a role reversal as the Road Warriors got the Int'l Tag Titles when shortly before Jumbo & Tenryu split, and went off on a 15 month run with them was a bit limited on defenses. In turn, the Revolution got the PWF Tag Titles when DiBise left for the WWF. It became the one more regularly defended, and played a decent and regular role in the Revolution's push. Jumbo & Yatsu, cleaned all that up by beating the Revolution and Road Warriors within a weak. In a sense foreshadowing the Triple Crown: the titles were unified and defended as if one title, the World Tag Titles. It got a major push.

All Japan's "World Title" in the 80s was the NWA World Title. Same in the 70s. All Japan was a territory, just like Mid-Atlantic / JCP. The US Title in JCP wasn't their "world title". It was the top title in the territory, and when the NWA Champ came through town, that took precedent. Anyway... The titles were basically this: International Title = Rikidozan's Title It was the top title in JWA. Rikidozan dominated it. He died and it lay dormant for a while. When they brought it back, Baba got it which was a sign that he and not Toyonobori was the top dog in the promotion. Toyonobori got the picture and eventually left. When Baba jumped from JWA to create his own promotion, it went to Oki. JWA died, and then it had an indifferent life in Japan. Oki didn't defend the title in Japan between the close of JWA in 1973 and 1980, when he made a trio of defenses in IWE. Instead, he jobbed in an NWF Title match to Inoki in 1974, and then jobbed his old Asian Title (another old Rikidozan title that had passed on to him) to Baba in 1977 in a PWF Title vs Asian Title match. Baba bought it essentially for Jumbo to chase, then win. United National Title = Inoki's Title A secondary title to give to Inoki since he wasn't getting the Int'l Title around Baba's waist. Inoki got fired from JWA, and it went to Sakaguchi as Baba's #2. Sak jobbed this on the way out, and it ended up around Takachiho's waist as JWA died in one of the funnier historical footnotes of the era. Baba in All Japan brought it back, and it was the secondary title of All Japan for Jumbo. Similar role as the belt played in JWA. PWF Title = Baba's Title This actually was a World Title when it was created as Baba didn't yet have the NWA deal, which was still with JWA. When the JWA died, Baba got the NWA deal over Inoki, and Brisco came over on tour in early 1974. NWA vs PWF Title match, DCOR, and Baba stopped calling the PWF Title a "world title". Pretty safe to suspect that in January they knew the payoff to the deal was that Brisco would come back in December and do a title turn around with Baba. I get that Jack liked to pretend that the US NWA didn't know this was going on and that he (Brisco) got paid nicely by Baba to do this... but that's not credible. Baba was in the deal an NWA member. You don't fuck with the NWA Title with a real change in those days without the NWA signing off on it. Baba also grew to be one of the more powerful and respected NWA promoters... you don't do that if you're screwing with the title without agreement of the home office and money going that direction. Anyway, the PWF Title was the #1 title in All Japan in that period. Where it gets murky is that there was a transition period in All Japan where Jumbo was getting elevated to being the Ace. There wasn't a moment where Jumbo wasn't the Ace one day, and the next day he was the Ace. I've gone over it in other threads, but it's a gradual thing with a series of events. In turn, there isn't a clear moment where Baba says, "I'm not the Ace". It's the same gradual thing. Baba kind of booked it nicely so that in the stretch where Jumbo was cementing himself as the Ace, Baba had passed the PWF Title over to Hansen. Once Jumbo was more clearly the Ace, Baba took one last spin with the PWF Title before phasing himself more fully downward. Timelining it... The PWF Title was #1 from the time it was created until the Int'l was bought. The PWF and Int'l were then roughly on par until the PWF went to Hansen and the Int'l went to Jumbo on the same series. People might not think that based on how the Int'l was elevated from later on, but it's really how it was placed. The only time the belts were defended on the same card in that 1981-83 period, Baba-Race was above Brody-Dory. Even as late as 1984, the major Sumo Hall card had Baba-Hansen at the top with the Martel-Jumbo AWA Title rematch in the semi, while the Martel-Jumbo Int'l Title match was six days earlier on a lesser card. After that... the Int'l was #1, the PWF was #1-A, and the UN was the secondary title for Tenryu. The PWF got a pretty respectable push in 1986 around Choshu: good buildings relative to the Int'l title, and a good match ups. It faded down the stretch of 1986, and was pretty pedestrian in Hansen's run the next year until they heated up Stan vs Tenryu which eventually lead to the PWF and UN getting unified. Which across a year led to the Triple Crown. As far as how the tourneys fit in... they're different beasts. I don't think the Carny ranked all that highly from 1973-82. It wasn't meaningless, but it's meaning might be best reflected by how it was covered in Classics. Not very heavily. I'd have to look, but I don't even think most Finals aired. The PWF Title was above the Int'l Tag Titles while it was #1 since it was Baba's title. The RWTL... it just kind of clicked. To a degree they got lucky with the first one. Where it would rate? It's a once a year thing, so it's kind of off the books. It's like the Rumble to the WWF Title. It's big while it's going on, then it's not going on and it's less important. It didn't even have the hook of "Winner Gets Mania Title Shot" to it. For example, the Funks and Baba & Hansen traded 5 of the first 6 of them from 1977-82. On the heels of those, there was exactly 1 NWA Int'l Tag Title match between the teams from 1978-83. The other team that won it in that stretch was Brody & Snuka in 1981. Their only challenge for the NWA Int'l Tag Title came *before* that RWTL. So... it really was it's own island, a Rumble with better matches.

I don't know if the Interwebs is #1 or someone reporting on wrestling as Fake Entertainment, with Insider News, Analysis, Commentary and Reviewing it as Performance is more important. Or Vince copping to it being fake. Would SKeith and others have been talking like they talked in 1998/99, influencing the masses like Jerry and changing their world view, if it weren't for Dave? No. They would be using the choppy terms that folks like Kriz, KHawk, I and others were using before we came across Dave or a Dave influenced Net. I don't really think that would have been all that earth shattering. Insider news? Honestly... it flat out sucked in 1998/99 outside of Dave and Wade. Guys like Scherer were ripping them off left and right, other than being feed stuff by the promotions. I'm also not entirely sure that people like Heyman and others inside the business would have talked to Hardcore Fans if their walls had not already been brought down by Dave and Wade. Kind of saw it first hand, in a variety of ways. Even the breaking down of the walls with ECW and WCW... that was down by RSP-W, AOL GSW and Prodigy guys, not by the later Big Boys of the Web like Issacs, Lords of Paste, Wrestleline, SKeith, etc. If there was no Dave, and spawns of Dave, your IWC Revolution is likely to be even less on Hardcore Fan and far more on Fan Boy / Fan Support. Think Stuart and his puroresu empire, which even he admited was a support site rather than a real hardcore fan site. I'm not saying that Dave and the WON were #1 on importance. But I keep going back to it: an evolution. Which you agree to. Beyond that, it's pretty pointless to rank them on levels of importance. Each step was important in expanding it, with each building on the prior one while also needing it to have preceded it.

The entire 1996 G1 was better in the building than on TV, but the first night was just a mess on TV. They seemed to have the crowd mic'd poorly or something, but it really came across flat. It's possible that commercial tape had the mix better, as I don't see any knocks about the Choshu-Hash and Mutoh-Yamazaki in the YB threads. I'm trying to remember if by AAA match was better on TV than it was live...

Remember when people thought Rock was making a mistake going into movies and leaving all that pro wrestling money on the table? http://www.forbes.com/sites/dorothypomerantz/2014/07/21/robert-downey-jr-once-again-tops-forbes-list-of-top-earning-actors I remember for years arguing that he just needed to make his Battleship Movie, that if a no talent like Steven Seagal could convert one such movie into a good paying career in Hollywood, then Rock could as well. Then I said that even if his movie career eventually stalled after a hit or two, he still had a Walker Texas Ranger television career to fall back on because Chuck fell back on that and cranked out 8 seasons, 200+ episodes of that garbage and got paid a damn good wage for it. I think I even throughout Nash Bridges where a washed up Don Johnson with a washed up side kick Cheech was able to grind out 6 years and 120+ episodes. It's not even funnier: we're 12 years passed his The Scorpion King, and he hasn't yet had to fall back to TV for cash. Instead, he appears to be doing TV for fun, experience (as one of the Executive Producers) and connections (Wahlberg, Stephen Levinson, Peter Berg and Rob Weiss are serious players in tv). Kudos to Rock.

Again, I don't disagree to the general concept. But I'd also say that the WON allowed for elite ideas to spread on an on an exponentially larger degree that had been previously possible when fans like Yohe and Front Row Section D operated in either isolation (if they didn't have a few Smart Hardcore Fan bus like themselves), or in small circles (such as FRSD). Suddenly you go from a group of 1 or 10 to being in a group of 3K. In turn, the growth in the early web days were expanding the circle from perhaps 6K (lets say WON+Torch+RSP-W+Prodigy+AOLGSW with there being a decent amount of overlap between one of more of those) to say 60K in 1998/99. Pad the number up higher if you want, but it's possible the 6K number is low as well. That 60K has grown over time. It's far higher now, though I look at the number of different posters on this board and it really doesn't look like a higher number than the elite boards had in the 1999-2001 range. Is DVDVR at peak numbers now, and is that peak number insanely more than say 2005? The Interweb Websites were a Key Point in the evolution of hardcore wrestling fandom in this country. There have been a number of them, and the evolution from say 1983 (the dawn of the WON) to the present is one of a new continual evolution. That's generally a point I, and others, have been trying to get across. It's not a 0:1 binary flip the switch moment. More that the switch was already on, there was a fair amount of juice going through it, and then a brand new bigger electric plant got built that cranked up the juice to a higher level. It still was electricity, and it still was the same type of electricity as before. There was more of it.

Bix: 20/20 special. Curtain pulled back. It's hardly the only one. Vince going in and out of letting people blade back in the late 80s and early 90s, because "blading" was out there enough for the "barbaric" practice being a PR concern for Vince. Exactly how much of the magic trick does one have to understand before Kayfabe is Dead? That Hogan is going to keep the belt in every match isn't enough? So does it have to be that Trip and Steph are fucking? Because the fact that Savage and Liz were married was pretty common knowledge long before they got "married" in the storyline. I mean... I get the some folks might have been too clueless to have known. But it was out there for years. Where is the magic bullet where kayfabe is dead, or died? A one-off media expose or the occasional bad shoot angle (and there was no context given to your Pillman-Sullivan example by the announcers) is not the same thing as the promotion itself producing and marketing extensive documentaries about the very specific inner-workings of the business. Have A Nice Day was released in 1999. It was a best seller, and was released with the WWF's blessing. I don't see that book written due to the growth of the IWC, especially since Mick had been working on that well back into 1998. Once the WWF blessed that, it was obvious that it's "documentaries" and "histories" and of course future books on wrestlers would change. That had more to do with Mick and the success of his book than the IWC. That's not even touching on Wrestling with Shadows (1998) and Beyond the Mat (1999), since they admittedly made very little money while exposing the business. Though one of them did get aired a lot on A&E back at the time.

Not a single person has said that it Changed Nothing. But as Lee says, it's a matter of degree. For someone like Yohe in the 60s and 70s, it's entirely possible that he could end up in a Hardcore Smart Fandom of his own if all his friends grow out of wrestling, and he's not able to hook up with others who look at wrestling like him. Then along comes the WON. Here is a writer who views wrestling like he does, and a slew of readers who do as well. He's able to send in letters to what was at the time a vibrant Letter Page where fans exchanged thoughts, ideas, incite and at times pure bullshit. Dave interacted with them, on the Letters Page in response, or in meeting with some in trips. While reading through the Letters Page, you see people in the same neck of the woods as you. "Who is this Steve Yohe over in Alhambra a couple of miles away?" -jdw 1991 "Who is this John Williams a couple of miles away looking for old Observers? Let me send him a letter saying I've got some." -Yohe in 1991 Your world of fandom expands. I met Yohe and Barnett through the WON, started going to shows with Yohe, buying tapes from Barnett, talking with both on the phone. I met Hoback through Barnett. I met Dave at a show here in LA, and a couple of weeks later he called about something or other. Then long distance got free in packages, and one no longer had to watch the phone bill when talking with someone in NoCal, NC, Minnesota, Texas, Tennessee, Michigan... I've forgotten 80% of the people I talked with in the early to mid-90s, almost all of them nice, smart fans. Some of them that I recall were big players in hardcore fandom whose names you'd come across in the old WONs like Tim Whitehead (terrifically nice guy who we always called the Switzerland of fandom because he got along with everyone) or Chris Zavisa (one of the biggest collector fans of puroresu in the era and another really nice guy) or Gary Will and Royal Duncan when they were working on their Title Histories project. Then I popped online in the mid-90s into RSP-W, and it was another circle. Some of them names you'd seen in WON like Scherer, but also a wide world of people like CRZ or SKeith or Dean Rasmussen or Mike Lorefice, etc. Then taking a peak into AOL GSW, and another group of fans like Frank or Travis or all those ECW fans who were even more... uh... odd about the company that Scherer & Co. on rps-w. Then the website boards... And then the news & recaps websites... What some of us are trying to get across is that for those of us who've been from that very first step 30 or more years ago, then moved through each of these other ones, that last step doesn't represent a Revolutionary Change. It's just another change in a long revolution. It's not an insignificant one, it is a pretty decent sized on, but it doesn't feel like the Wheel or Fire or Sliced Bread. * * * * * On some level, this is similar to the Music Business. It's Dead now... just flat out dead. Sales are in the shitter. So what killed it off? Up and down people will say the ability to Share Music. They wouldn't be entirely wrong. But folks who have been around a long time have heard cries of the Death of The Music Business going back for ages. The Cassette Tape was going to kill it, because people would just record their music, and share it, and sales would tank. Didn't really happen. CD burning would kill it, because one person would buy something, then burn it for a lot of people. Didn't really happen, and the music business actually sold a pretty decent records during that period. Napster would kill it. Not really... Napster died before it could kill the music business. What really seemed to be the breaking point? High speed internet *everywhere* (as opposed to loads of people still on dial-up or slow shit), portable mass storage and even single tracks being marketed by the industry. You could share lots of stuff extremely easy (and often for free!), store a shit load of it on a device to take it with you, and the "single" reborn as a "download" was much more viable as a mobile song mixed in with all your other shit than as a 45 on the turn table. Is any of that really revolutionary? Not really. A CD was pretty damn mobile on a walk man. Selecting the tracks you want is something that went back to mix tapes. Copying stuff for free... well, fuck it... my first Beatles collection was initially all on cassette tape after borrowing all the albums from a friend of the family. It was several years before I got the whole album collection on vinyl as a great gift from my mom. Downloaded and internet file sharing? Napster had it... but not everyone was really connected well to the internet at that time... I certainly wasn't. Technology kept evolving, and eventually what everyone feared back when the recordable cassette tape was introduced finally happened. But elements of it had been going on for decades prior to it, laying the foundation. Hardcore wrestling fandom is the same. John

At the beginning of March, it looks like: 31,924,430 Class A 43,223,134 Class B http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1091907/000120677414000883/wwe_def14a.htm The listed Class B were: 39,272,641 - Vince & Linda 566,670 - Linda stand alone 609,733 - Steph Trust 2004 1,849,393 - Steph Trust 2008 That's 42,298,437. I'm guessing the remaining 924,697 is Shane's. Looking back at the 2013 proxy: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1091907/000120677413001064/wwe_def14a.htm "1,862,733 shares of Class B common stock held by the Stephanie McMahon Levesque Trust U/A Vincent K. McMahon Irrevocable Trust, dated June 24, 2004 (the “2004 Trust”); and (iii) 1,849,393 shares of Class B common stock held by the Stephanie McMahon Levesque Trust u/a Vincent K. McMahon Irrev. Trust dtd. 12/23/2008 (the “2008 Trust”)" So Steph has unloaded 1,253,000 of her 2004 Trust shares. "1,499,393 shares of Class B common stock held by the Shane McMahon Trust U/A Vincent K. McMahon Irrevocable Trust dated December 23, 2008, over which shares Shane McMahon has sole investment power" And Shane has moved 574,696. The overall number of Class B had dropped 2,277,696, so that accounts for most of it. Guessing some variation of Vince/Linda offloaded the remaining 450K for some reason, but having sifted through the filings to find it.

Who said Vince isn't a genius? He's the greatest wrestling promoter who ever lived. The word wasn't "genius". It was "innovator", and what his major one/ones were.

They have a separate class. The voting rights ratio is higher than conversion rate, which would let them sell off shares if they're hard up for $$$ while continuing to control the company via the "votes". My recollection is that it's a 1:1 conversion if they're sold. If they're selling the company (i.e. accepting a tender offer), there shouldn't be an issue.

You do know that a higher % of people had televisions in this country in 1985 than had internet access in 1999. So if the Secret was exposed on TV back then... it stops being a secret. Then again, I was 18 when that thing aired. So perhaps I have a memory of it while others here don't, and it allowed them to think there was a Secret when there really wasn't one.

Bix: 20/20 special. Curtain pulled back. It's hardly the only one. Vince going in and out of letting people blade back in the late 80s and early 90s, because "blading" was out there enough for the "barbaric" practice being a PR concern for Vince. Exactly how much of the magic trick does one have to understand before Kayfabe is Dead? That Hogan is going to keep the belt in every match isn't enough? So does it have to be that Trip and Steph are fucking? Because the fact that Savage and Liz were married was pretty common knowledge long before they got "married" in the storyline. I mean... I get the some folks might have been too clueless to have known. But it was out there for years. Where is the magic bullet where kayfabe is dead, or died?

I believe it was pointed out to you that the Death of Kayfabe has been a talking point for two decades, before the IWC Evolution that you want to point to. I've literally stood next to Dave when people in the business express their anger to him for Dave killing Kayfabe. Considering I haven't stood next to Dave since about 1998, and the "IWC Webpages" were barely coming into being at the time... that might give you an idea of how far back that concept went. "I respect you booker man." -Brian Pillman, 1996 Wrestling was already killing it's own kayfabe before your IWC Revolution. That's before pointing to Vince himself exposing that the business was worked a full decade before that. Or the 20/20 piece that I linked to. I mean... I get that you might have missed it. You might not have been a fan in 1986 when he copped to it being worked, or too young to understand, or perhaps sheltered in another country where the news never hit. Here... it was out there and known. Hell, it was known before that. It's kind of hard to get more Death of Kayfabe that then most powerful promoter in the world admitting it was fake. It's a picture that a number of posters on this board are painting for you how *they* were fans pre-internet and before reading Dave. I get that you dislike me and won't take my word for anything. But you have respected posters (at not just this board but across the net) such as Kriz, Lee and Khawk pointing it out to you in just the past few pages. You've got guys like Daniel pointing it out to you, and that's clearly not a run in to give me support given the two of us punting each other around for 15 years. Sift through the thread and note just how many poster are saying you're wrong, and specifically which ones and where they rate on the "This guy is pretty respected" scale. These are guys who've been on the net and in the Hardcore scene for years, and have seen the growth of the net and Hardcore fandom. They're not pulling this shit out of their asses just to be disagreeable with You. I'd get that if it was just me. But it's not. And you're just as much flipping the bird at them as me.