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I think over time, planes and interstate highways allowed for larger territories. Watts' Tri-State territory might not have been possible in the 30s and 40s, and instead different parts of what became that territory were their own territories. My guess is that we had more territories that were like "Memphis" and fewer that were like the Mid Atlantic or Capital in later days. I recall Yohe doing some research on some city for a period in the late 40s or early 50s where Rogers had a run. I don't recall it being a major city like San Diego sized. Anyway, it looked like it's own promotion, running its own storyline that Buddy airdropped into. It may have had a slightly wider base in other town/cities that created something of a circuit. But it felt like a small pissant promotion that none the less was running it's own business. I suspect there were tons of them. What became Capital and Mid Atlantic were almost certainly a collection of small promotions / towns / cities that eventually came together. Philly was its own strong city under Fabiani for decades. It would work with New York for stretches of it, but there was also a long dry stretch for MSG in the 40s, and it's not like Fabiani want out of business: he was still there when Philly went WWWF in the 60s. That's likely the case further up the East Coast. In turn, Buffalo had it's own promotion, etc. There's tons of stuff that could be researched, if newpapers covered it in other cities like it was covered in Los Angeles in the 30s and 40s. You basically could pop open the US Census data for 1940 and 1950, draw a cut off line of cities to research (say Top 100), pick a pair of years, and have a go looking at the Sports Page of the local paper(s) every day in each city for those two years... and see what you can build. Crap load of work, on a variety of levels: the research, the compiling, the putting it up in a way (like Graham's site) where it can be shared and reviewed.

On the first question, probably the 30s or 40s. Los Angeles alone had two successful promotions at the Olympic and at Hollywood Legion. In addition, there were other operations around the LA metro (LA, Ventura, Orange, Riverside and San Bernadino counties). It's been a long time since I looked up the details, but there was period without one year where we had several out of state World Champs running around: Thesz or Longson with the NWAssoc, Frank Sexton with his, Buddy Rogers had an invented one, and I seem to recall Brown came in with his. Don't recall if Lopez had his local version at that point (end of 1946), or if this all pre-dated it. Those guys weren't all working out of the Olympic, and instead some worked for different promotions. I don't recall San Diego being a really a clear part of the Los Angeles promotion at that point, though eventually they were. Then up the coast, etc. On the second question... it's probably impossible to answer. There was that Omaha version of the World Title that was closely associated with the AWA title, but basically also it's own promotion in the 50s into the 60s before getting merged into the AWA title and put to bed. That's freaking Omaha having it's own promotion. Look at the list of guys who held it: http://www.wrestling-titles.com/us/ne/awa/ne-world-h.html That's some major players... in Omaha. There were probably pissant small promotions all over the place. Not really outlaws, but minor ones that no one cared much about. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 100 operations going on at some point in the late 40s and early 50s.

Yeah... that.

This is the type of randomness + same-old-same-old that people are talking about. Opening night TV taping at Korakuen Hall: August 22nd 1993 (taped 8/20 Tokyo) 1. The Patriot & The Eagle vs Steve Williams & Tracy Smothers 2. Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako 3. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Ah... so Tracy Smothers is in on tour. Let's see how he works out. He actually has a surprisingly good series, getting into two other TV matches: August 29th 1993 (taped 8/23 Shizuoka) 3. Misawa & Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Williams & Smothers & Deaton September 26th 1993 (taped 9/9 Omiya) 2. Hansen & DiBiase & Smothers vs Misawa & Kobashi & Akiyama He actually looks *much* better than Ted on this series, though obviously there are limits to how hard they can push him. He looked good enough to get invited back for the Tag League, though in something of a thankless roll. Anyway... if you watched this series at the time, you're liking Tracy. The series before it had been Bossman/Big Bubba who showed up and looked good, which got him back for the series after this and climaxed in the Tag League where he was an interesting partner for Doc in some really good matches. So Tracy Smothers... turned out kind of cool for a month of TV. In the next match... Kobashi was Misawa's partner now, he and Kikuchi had dropped the All Asia belts to Patriot & Eagle, and the Can-Ams would be chasing the belts and winning them on this series. But Kobashi has history with them, and it's a chance to give Asako some time on TV, so he's tossed in here. This could be okay... wait... the Can-Ams destroyed Asako's mouth? He showing the old fighting spirit, getting all Kikuchi in there? This is good shit! Can-Ams vs Kobashi isn't new, but they have an old shoe comfort of working together, and Asako was fresh. Then you've got the six man main event, a regular thing at Korakuen Hall in the era, slightly changed up with Kobashi out of the mix and giving Misawa an unbalanced team opposite Kawada & Taue. We all could predict the likely outcome as we'd seen it often enough, but it's likely to be some solid good stuff... and Kawada & Taue vs Misawa & Co was only 3 series old at this point, kicking off the 4th series here. It's not at all played out at this point like Jumbo & Co vs Misawa & Co was in 1992. So... yeah... this is okay. Random gaijin showing up in one match. A relatively fresh kid in the second. And a still fairly new feud in the main. In another series the year before, Rick Rude showed up. It was interesting to see Joel Deaton and Billy Black develop. You get strange stuff like the State Police as mentioned, or the Blackhearts. With the one hour format, there were more tapings and matches tended to get more time to breath even if there was a lot of JIP going on. Fun stuff to watch every week or two weeks in 1989-93 depending on which video store I went to they were either bundled two AJPW or NJPW together every two weeks or the NJPW+AJPW together on a tape each week. Easy to keep up with as well: just two hours a week. Sucked when it got cut down to 30 minutes.

Agreed.

Correct. Edit in. Not sure why my brain counted 8 as 9 and thought I had them all.

The cards for a 1993 & 1994 Bashes would have been 1993 Beach Blast and 1994 Bash at the Beach. Those were the July PPV. In 1995, they kept the Bash at the Beach and brought the GAB name back for a new June PPV.

Just to make the dates clear, these were the matches between Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue: 06/01/93 World Tag Titles 12/03/93 Last Match of Tag League / World Tag Titles 05/21/94 World Tag Titles 11/25/94 Tag League 01/24/95 World Tag Titles 06/09/95 World Tag Titles 10/15/95 World Tag Titles 11/21/95 Tag League 12/09/95 Tag League Final They finished 3-3-3, which is pretty fitting. Though the final match isn't a great end to the series.

Later Dave/WO-4: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-stories/3-news/41805-rey-mysterio-disputes-rumors-that-hes-retiring

Plenty of emphasis in 1991. More regular focus over the course of the year than Kawada being set up to challenge Jumbo. The last of their four singles match of the year was four days before Misawa & Kawada won the tag titles. So it's going on while Misawa & Kawada are chasing the tag titles, and the two of them certainly knew how to get across the hate.

I found that to be the vibe with all of Misawa's teams in the 90s: they were more two individuals teaming together than some Midnight Express type of team. It wasn't totally uncommon for big teams in Japan, so it never really bugged me. They were partners together, they were trying to "win", they did their stuff, etc. Kawada & Taue initially had a similar vibe, despite the efforts to do double team spots (which Misawa's teams did as well). They just eventually "fit" together, perhaps due to longevity, perhaps do to their odd couple look, probably largely because they were Not Misawa & Kobashi/Akiyama i.e. the standard top face team. They became old show comfortable. As far as tag team work, Kawada knew how to work tag throughout the time with Misawa, coming off his time with Fuyuki. He had to do a lot of the dirty work, and Misawa got to shine more given the slotting. Kawada was a great hot tag wrestler, but a chunk of that went to his partner. As a team, they felt a bit opposite of Misawa & Kobashi because Kenta was a force of nature in whatever he did, and Misawa was slowly slipping into a mode of being more than willing to let his partners shine and picking his spots to add to the match, often wisely (more so with Jun, but plenty of times with Kenta such as 12/03/93). I also don't think Misawa was as good of a worker in from 5/90 - 1/93 when he did the bulk of his teaming with Kawada (Carny came after, then they split). He seemed banged up through big chunks of it, and sloppy, and feeling his way through being the #2 guy in the company and how to work in that role. With Jumbo out, he really picked up his game in 1993 becoming the Ace. Kawada didn't get the benefit of teaming with *that* guy. In turn, Kawada kicked it up another notch moving into the #2 roll opposite of Misawa, but you could already see that before the split in the 2/93 match with Hansen and his performances in the Carny.

The tag titles were his priority at the time: 02/26/91 World Tag Titles: Terry Gordy & Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada 06/07/91 World Tag Titles: Stan Hansen & Danny Spivey vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada 07/24/91 World Tag Titles: Terry Gordy & Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada ∆ 09/04/91 World Tag Titles: Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 10/24/91 Triple Crown: Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada 12/06/91 RWSTL Final Match / WTTitles: Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Terry Gordy & Steve Williams ∆ The Triple Crown was more the isolated, one-series thing. The two times he was in a Budokan main event / co-main event (9/4 & 12/6) were with the Tag Titles on the line. The match with Jumbo was in a series without a Budokan. One could argue that the quest for the tag titles was his story for the year: getting it on the third try, then withstanding Jumbo's team gunning for them (with Misawa banged up at the time), then chasing the Tag League which neither Misawa or Kawada had won at that point. At the time, we thought the Kawada challenge of the TC was cool, but it was also something of a throw away because he had no chance of winning it even before you start plotting out the booking ramifications (which is what you worked through when Misawa challenged).

When rewatching in the past 15 or so years, I probably have enjoyed Jumbo & Taue more than Misawa & Kawada when the teams faced each other, largely due to Jumbo. The tricky part is when they faced Gordy & Williams and Hansen & Spivey, where it's a little hit and miss for both native teams.

Two posts, two shots.

The post was neither cheerful or uncheerful. Just fact-based.

Brutal. Didn't have many words for it when Hoback mentioned it on Saturday... still don't now. The footage doesn't help: just about the most inexplicable thing you've ever seen, with a sadness and helplessness of watching Charles shake him to try to revive him because that's almost exactly what Perro looks like: "out" rather than something far worse. Can't imagine how devastated Charles, Oscar and Perrito's family and friends are. Just brutal.

All Japan tag teams aren't terribly complicated. Here's Jumbo partners for major things (Tag Title matches and the Tag League) during the Jumbo & Co. vs Misawa & Co feud: 07/19/90 World Tag Titles: Terry Gordy & Steve Williams vs Jumbo Tsuruta & The Great Kabuki 1990 Tag League: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 03/04/91 World Tag Titles: Terry Gordy & Steve Williams vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 06/01/91 World Tag Titles: Stan Hansen & Danny Spivey vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 09/04/91 World Tag Titles: Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 1991 Tag League: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 03/04/92 World Tag Titles: Terry Gordy & Steve Williams vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 06/05/92 World Tag Titles: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi 10/07/92 World Tag Titles: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Terry Gordy & Steve Williams 1992 Tag League: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (Jumbo pulled out and was replaced by Akiyama) Fuchi didn't have a World Tag Title match in the period, let alone partnering with Jumbo. Fuchi didn't even get a slot in the Tag League in those three years. Taue was Jumbo's lead partner after Kabuki (thank god) jumped to SWS. Fuchi was part of Jumbo's group, and the Jr. Champ. Not complicated. Everyone following the promotion at the time got it, and I can't recall anyone being confused by it since. Those things up above tend to make it clear.

This thread goes pretty much the exact direction one would expect it to have gone when the first post was made. Given pretty much everyone in it has been in several Flair Threads like this on PWO in the past, you kind of wonder if there's any value in it. Each side probably could have just linked to the old threads where the arguments are all fleshed out in much more detail and humor for that matter. Anyway, two point. On this: Childs is right. People have been critical of the All Japan guys since the late 90s... in real time. They were getting five snowflakes in some circles, people were circle jerking to them, and some of already were starting to go, "Hey... wait a minute... let's talk about this." Didn't make some of us too well loved. Of course that's been forgotten over time and all that remains is the aura and rep of folks being myopic All Japan marks. Reality was a bit different. Before one claims that's old, and not recent, one can sift through the Yearbook threads and find plenty of AJPW matches that got critical thinking. * * * * * Second point: the most useful posts in this thread, possibly the only useful ones, are Daniel talking about Santo. Less for Santo in specific, but the whole of line of thought he's trying to get across that reaches a summation in the post about Charles. Flair is Flair, and as Dylan gets across, thread like this only make folks dig in deeper with their votes for or against Flair. One could say it's a waste, since the thread covers old ground less well that it was covered back in the "old". But on occasion as the eyes glaze over the discussion leads one of the posters off on a side bar that's good and thought provoking. That's the one in here.

Add: 07/27/78 Backlund vs Inoki On a couple of the matches Tim mentioned: Billy Robinson vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (3/11/77 - 47:32) This was a time limit: 34:19, 11:35, 14:06. So it's 60:00. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mil Mascaras (8/25/77 - 43:32) Under 40:00 in time: 22:18, 7:46, 3:20 On Harley... He had a 60:00 draw with Jumbo on 01/20/78 that won the Tokyo Sports MOTY in 1978. Dan tracked down the TV version of it several years ago. It seems likely that NTV doesn't have the match, as it makes no sense that a Tokyo Sports MOTY didn't get aired on Classics, especially the G+ version that added so many new matches. Anyway... it wasn't a blow away match in TV form, and more than a bit disappointing. There's the 11/20/74 Verne vs Billy that went 20:48, 15:21, 9:35 (just over 45) that I believe came out on one of the IWA box sets. We may have watched it at one of the King of Chickens and sadly was one of those where we were eating or talking over it and zoned out, since I don't have much memory of it. I'm sure KHawk has seen it and can comment. The 03/10/76 Verne vs Jumbo match went 19:12, 9:54, 13:51, which is a shade under 45. I liked that one a good deal. Not great or off the charts, but like a couple of other matches in Japan showed Verne in good light as a guy who could go. Again, Kevin could comment better than me as the AWA/Verne guru, but it was an enjoyable match to see Verne work. Jumbo's first big match in Japan went 60:00: 10/09/73 NWA International Tag Titles: The Funk vs. Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta It's out there. It's not at the level of the later Tag League matches, but it's worth a look to see Jumbo extremely early in his career.

The All Japan list, especially the "name game" list, is pretty much the Usual Suspects through the 90s. If you took a look at Loss' rankings in the Yearbooks, the DVDVR 80s discussions/results, or the stuff I've pounded over the years, you're not going to find many if any surprises.

Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Hokuto.

I... uh... yeah... *backs away before he inhales too much second hand bong smoke*