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Yeah... that was a chart that I just looked at the breakdown between Active / Lapsed / Non-Fan, took a look at the Non-Fan number, laughed... and then just moved on. We all know reality: in our day-to-day lives, we don't come across 50% of the people we deal with being either Active or Lapsed wrestling fans. The NFL doesn't have 50% of the country being Active or Lapsed NFL fans, even cheating by counting everyone who watches the Super Bowl simply because they go to parties or are dragged their by their significant others. John

Totally agree. James put together the piece on Aja after a number of us had been batting her around for several years, and specifically after post-HOF issue when Dave crapped on her. That was time to get it organized, and "BTW... here are Dave's quotes from the WON's in the early 90s about Aja to support the point we're making". The HOF in the end is just a freaking list. There's not alteration of Hase's career one way or another by being on that list. There's not a lot of illumination of his career either by being on that list. The illumination would have been by having some long discussions about him while he was a candidate. That didn't happen. John

They have been so consistent in how they announce the 1/4 attendance over the years: Announced vs Dave (via prowrestlinghistory.com) 1997 62,500 vs 52,500 (19.0%) 1998 65,000 vs 55,000 (18.2%) 1999 62,500 vs 52,500 (19.0%) 2000 63,500 vs 53,500 (18.7%) 2001 62,001 vs 52,000 (19.2%) 2002 51,500 vs 52,000 (-1.0% yeah... that does look a bit odd) 2003 50,000 vs 30,000 (66.7%) 2004 53,000 vs 40,000 (32.5%) 2005 46,000 vs 46,000 (0.0% yep, that one too... I think Jason may have gotten a non-Dave for these two) 2006 43,000 vs 31,000 (38.7%) 2007 28,000 vs 18,000 (55.6%) 2008 27,000 vs 20,000 (35.0%) 2009 40,000 vs 27,500 (45.5%) 2010 41,500 vs 20,000 (107.5%) 2011 42,000 vs 18,000 (133.3%) 2012 43,000 vs 23,000 (87.0%) 2013 29,000 vs 29,000 (0.0%) Anyway, they did get insane with their Dome numbers at the least. They were bad after the bottom fell out in 2002/03, but then took it to another level. What's kind of funny is that 2006/07 is when the Nakamura/Tanahashi era of them really anchoring the company took off... or didn't take off. John

53 votes is 15% in the NA Group? 353 votes total? Yeah, Dave is handing out a lot of ballots these days. John

Eddy got in for dropping dead. Yeah, his justification is largely work. But it didn't get him into the HOF in 2005, or in 2004 after the big push and Mania Moment. He dropped dead and went into the Hall. Though isn't there a piece to the argument that some voters just won't vote for an active guy if he's under 40 and still working in a major federation? There's at least some voters that were waiting until he was clearly done before they were going to include him on their HOF ballot (i.e. the "I won't vote for Cena... yet" argument). But yeah, I agree there was a huge emotional sway that changed voter's people's minds -- still, at least a portion of it was probably a few minds changing with a fair assessment of his body of work. I don't recall what the flip in voting % was. Also suspect that there might have been some folks for whom "dropping dead from drugs" wouldn't pull in a sympathy vote for. All that said, I do think the act of dying rapidly hastened Eddy getting into the HOF. :/ John

Yes - lame. First of all, we already hashed out that Bix was mistaken, as the post I copy & pasted and called him out on at the Observer board was indeed something he posted on the Observer board. Apparently he posted it in both places. Try to keep up. I thought the bitchfest on your podcast after several times swearing off of the discussion here was lame. Could give a shit about what you post on the WO-4 boards. Of course. It's just lame to repeatedly check out of this discussion, come back, check out again and then run off to your podcast and bitch some more. And I think what some of us are pointing out is that we don't think Jun is a HOFer. If Tanahashi is sub-Jun, it doesn't help him. Of course. All of those guys who have gotten voted in hit their working peak after 1990. The people that Dylan and Bix and others have pointed out earlier hit their work peak before 1990, and for the most part had their career effectively done by that point. Which is something that the rest of us point out every time you get back to the meme that "you guys don't understand the voters and what they voter for". No, actually, we do understand all to well. It's why some of us said several years ago that Danielsen would be a lock to go in the HOF even before he got the big push in the WWE. We know the voting pasterns, and know that the voters are going to pick Current and Recent work guys while not bothering to put the time and effort into Past work guys. John

Want to have that qualifier at the top before looking at these. Workrate didn't drive her in. In fact, it was a negative as Dave kept banging the "Another Dump but not as good" and "Aja wasn't as good as Bull" drum when talking about her. What got her over the top was people articulating her impact on getting Joshi over to Men, and quite wisely using Dave's own words at the time to get that point across. Dave forgot it, but some of us didn't. "Impact" and being the top woman in the 90s glory era of the promotion got her over the top. But it was a struggle to get there. Would agree. Not entirely sure in 2001. I think three years as the top dog in the post-Crush Girls company as they re-marketed themselves was as important. Dave pushed her work, but by 2001 it wasn't something like Hokuto or Toyota's. Yep. Work drove that. He got in *before* the big push in 2004. I think this is what drove it: 2008 & 2009 WON Wrestler of the Year He'd been on the ballot how long before getting in the Class of 2010? He got in the very next year after his second WOTY award. Now "why" he won those two awards might have a lot to do with work. But that was the cha-ching for a lot of voters. Eddy got in for dropping dead. Yeah, his justification is largely work. But it didn't get him into the HOF in 2005, or in 2004 after the big push and Mania Moment. He dropped dead and went into the Hall. Hase got in half for work, and half for people delusionally giving him way too much credit for his front office work with New Japan while providing extremely few specifics on exactly what major things Hase was responsible for (as opposed to, you know... Choshu). Without the work, he doesn't go in. But without the bullshit, he also doesn't go in. Yep. Yep. Yep. Though people would point to him supporting the work with the accomplishments, and there probably are some who gave Gold Medal bonuses. Yep. You're forgetting the "influence" and "impact" bonuses people were giving to justify him going in, along with trying to give him as much business credit as possible for his 1996-98 run. Honestly, the reason Shawn went in was the "I really, really, really like/love him" factor, then building a case to support voting for him. I'd agree on that, though people tried to pull the "trainer" rabbit out of the hat. I think Shawn, Hase and Dragon all fell into the "we really like this guy" category at the time of their election, and arguments in favor of them we crafted to support the cause. As much as I don't especially like Shawn as a worker or as a character or as a person, he's one of those guys who if the rule was you can't get on the ballot until you're 45, I would have had a much easier time supporting his candidacy in 2010 in contrast to thinking he wasn't worthy back when he really was on the ballot. John

I also think that some people are taking claims of numbers in the range of 100K with a massive grain of salt. John

There is some humor in the fact that Jun in 2001/2002 and again in 2003 put up drawing numbers in NJPW that Tanahashi has never matched. I tend to think that Jun bombed as a successor/heir to Misawa when given repeated chances. But if we apply the "That's a tough standard for Tanahashi to be forced to match" rule when comparing Tanahashi's success to when New Japan was actually a successful company... well, Jun kind of does pretty okay. Dittos Sasaki, who I think is wildly overrated as a draw and have pointed it out in earlier threads this year.

That's me as well when it comes to Tanahashi. Same thing with Trip and Angle at the time. John

Yes. The same guy who is an expert on Tanahashi also has to be an expert when it comes to the Sharpe Brothers and Sakaguchi. "You might very well say that, I couldn't possibly comment."

Yes - lame.

Not unreasonable. The question is what you do with someone like Chigusa, who had just comeback and was a decade plus past what made her a HOF. 45/25, which would have likely been the best for me? That would have pushed her from 1997 to 2005... when we would have been talking about it in 1996? 40/20 would have been 2000. I tossed up the 40/20 for the women who got in: 1995 Jackie Sato 1997 Jaguar Yokota 1998 Devil Masami 2000 Chigusa Nagayo 2000 Dump Matsumoto 2000 Lioness Asuka 2003 Bull Nakano 2005 Akira Hokuto 2006 Aja Kong 2007 Manami Toyota Jaguar was back as well. Only Dump stayed retired. So if it's 40/20 or 5 years still retired, it would look like this: First Class - Jackie Sato First Class - Dump Matsumoto -------------------------- 1997 Jaguar Yokota 1998 Devil Masami 2000 Chigusa Nagayo 2000 Lioness Asuka 2003 Bull Nakano 2005 Akira Hokuto 2006 Aja Kong 2007 Manami Toyota From a 1996 perspective, does that look about right? I'm guessing that most would have gone in easy, especially with the Crush Girls on together. Aja would have still had her issues, but Dave's pimping of Hokuto and Toyota would have gotten them in the first year or second at worst. So maybe: 45/25 for Men and 40/20 or 5 years still retired for Women John

Here's where they hit problems leading into Warrior's reign: Curt Hennig - programed to get killed by Hogan from Nov 1989 - Mar 1990 - IC Title - wait, Hogan got to pin him on SNME before heading off to make a movie - wait, he did do a lot of jobs to Warrior in Apr-May 1990 in a feud that wasn't strongly push - the Beefcake feud through Beefcake getting hurt - Von Erich This kind of was the most obvious one. If they knew they were going to Warrior over Hogan at Mania 1990, then it would have made sense to "save" Hennig's bullshit perfect streak for Warrior. Instead, but the time he got to Warrior, Hogan had already used up Hennig's limited main event potential. Honestly, I don't recall when they knew they were going to give Warrior the belt. It might have been after the Hennig feud started, and their plan was to have their usual "hot" Hogan feud around the horn before Mania to do business: 1986 Savage, 1987 Kamala, 1988 Ted & Andre and 1989 Bossman. They all started late in the prior year, and did good business. Perhaps that was the hope with Hennig, and the point of the build up. But on the flip side, if they knew of a potential plan to go with Warrior, he was the easiest to put in the leadoff spot after Mania. Ted DiBiase - jobbing around the horn to Jake in late 1989 through Mania 1990 - jobbing to Bossman after Mania through SummerSlam - taking over after Savage to feud with Dusty for the rest of 1990 - jobbing to Von Erich here and there There never was a point where they bothered building Ted back up. If he was going to challenge Warrior right after Mania, he really needed a long build up through the second half of 1989. Actually beating the crap out of Jake might have worked. Or buying off a few mid level faces might have helped get over the Everyone Had A Price gimmick once again, leading to an attempt to buy off Warrior after Mania. But unlike Perfect, Ted had been "down" for such a long time since his run with Hogan that it would have taken work to get him back up. If it were me, of course I would have invested the effort in it. But the WWF never was much of a Get The Heel Over promotion after the heel initially got over and used up. Savage was one of the exceptions. Rude - feuding with Warrior from Mania 1989 to Summer Slam 1989 - getting his ass kicked nightly by Piper after Summer Slam 1989 through March 1990 - getting his ass kicked nightly in March 1990 by people subbing for Piper when he was out - then he got programed with Warrior. Yeah... that one doesn't make a damned bit of sense. Other than the fact that if you program him with Piper, then Roddy is going to kick his ass. You don't bring back Piper as a regular like he was in that stretch to be jobbing out to Rude after Rude has just jobbed to Warrior. But that they flipped from the Piper feud to going back to Warrior right then was silly. We all get the hock of Rude having beaten him for a title before, but no one really cared for them to go right back to it. Jake - was a face A popular one, and one that Vince seemed to have a soft spot as a face. It was a long time between turns for him, and they wouldn't go back to him being a heel until the big turn the following year. Jake turning on Warrior would have been pretty damn interesting, especially if it was say at the end of a SummerSlam or Survivor Series match where they teamed and Jake just turned on him out of nowhere. That might have been a decent Nov 1990 - Mar 1991 feud for him. But Warrior was up to something else in that window... Savage - spend Apr-Oct getting killed by Hogan and blown off in Cage match in Dec - King feud with Duggan from Oct 1989 - Jan 1990 - feud with Dusty from Jan 1990 - Sep 1990 - Hogan beating him again in the Main Event in Feb 1990 After the Dusty feud, he got paired with Warrior basically from Oct 1990 through Mania 1991. So in a sense, Savage was programed with Warrior, and programed for a major feud eating up the second half of Warrior's year between Mania 1990 and Mania 1991. I'm not sure that anyone doesn't think that the feud had a big payoff. The problem doesn't seem to be Oct 1990 - Mar 1991, when he had the famous Savage feud. It was more filling the time from Apr-Sep 1990 with a feud, and one that kept his reign from hitting the skids like it did with Rude. We could say Perfect was the perfect one for that, especially if he hadn't been guzzled by Hogan. But Hogan was a bigger draw than Warrior by a country mile, and Hennig had issues drawing with Hogan. If it was going to be Hennig, they would have needed to work something in the Nov-Mania slot climaxing in Mania where he looks like the hot new heel. So exactly which Top Face below Hogan and Warrior could they have given Hennig to go over strongly, climaxing in beating him clean at Mania? I don't think Piper would want that role instead of getting to kick the crap out of Rude. But on a level, he would have been the #3 face in the company in that period. Hennig beating the crap out of Jake? It's tough, because it's just not how the WWF opperated. In turn, you'd need to find someone for Hogan to draw against in Nov-to-Mania in the place of Hennig. John

I don't have a massive preference for any specific one of those. 40/20 seemed at the time of the earlier discussions to still too low. 45/25 seems a bit long for a few, such as Rock and Cena (not sure we really need to see another 9 years of Cena). On the other hand, pushing off Savage to 1997 and Hogan & Steamboat to 1998 does give the HOF very quickly some very big names to look at (Steamer since he was a longtime WON fav). Bret going to 2001 also feels more right, setting aside his career ending before that. Sayama popping up in 2001 makes for a bio Dave would have loved to have done. 45/20 also gets Hogan into 1998, but it does two things: * Pulls a bunch into the class of 1996 (Savage, Onita, Dynamite, Sato, Dibiase, Bret, Steamboat & Sayama) * finishes most of the strongest by 2009 45/25 avoids those, and leaves a good number of candidates in the 2010+ eligibility range. * * * * * Backstory time, which I've mentioned before. 35 was created because of this group (based on their 40/20 eligibility): 1995 Jackie Sato 1997 Jaguar Yokota 1998 Devil Masami 2000 Chigusa Nagayo 2000 Dump Matsumoto 2000 Lioness Asuka 2003 Bull Nakano 2005 Akira Hokuto 2006 Aja Kong 2007 Manami Toyota The first half of them retired from their peak back at the age of 25 or earlier. When we did the HOF, Jaguar had been retired from here peak since the end of 1985: more than 10 years. Sure, she had returned like a number of the vets in the mid-90s, but we knew that nothing she did in that period was going to alter / enhance here HOF candidacy. Sato had been retired since 1981 from AJW, with a short unretirement from 1986-88 that meant nothing in the big picture. Dump had been retired for ages. At the time we didn't forsee (i) the retirement age coming to an end right around that time, and (ii) Joshi to die and stop producing HOF candidates right around that time. The mistake was making a rule for everyone that dealt with the issue of Early Joshi Retirement. In hindsight it's rather obvious we should have done one of two things: * Mens Rule + Joshi Rule * Jacked up the Age / Debut Rule and not worry about the impact on Joshi 40 years old for women who retired at 25 still feels off when 40 year olds like Hogan in 1993 weren't terribly far removed from their peak. 15 years of retirement... still off. We probably should have gone with the first. Up the age for Men, and block out when women would hit the ballot under different rules and see how it felt. Would Bull hitting the ballot in 2003 under 40/20 feel "right"? * * * * * The other thing that should have been thought out at the time is whether Dave wanted good classes deep into the coming years. Here's one thing that we couldn't have known at the time: WWF & WCW --> WWE Thriving Puroresu --> Decayed Puroresu Long Successful Joshi --> Dead Joshi We were working on this in the summer of 1996 on a trip to Japan. These guys were at or near their peaks in 1996: Mitsuharu Misawa, Nobuhiko Takada, Keiji Mutoh, Toshiaki Kawada, Masahiro Chono, Jushin Liger, Shinya Hashimoto and Kenta Kobashi. How in the heck were we suppose to know that there wasn't going to be a "next generation" remotely like that in terms of candidates. After all, in front of them had been a slew of candidates like Jumbo, Tenryu, Fujinami, Choshu, Maeda, Onita and Sayama. We were at the tail end of a golden age, but as you sat their in Sumo Hall watching New Japan at the very peak of their 90s run with a number of younger potential stars on the card, it was a bit hard to see the crash coming so soon. In hindsight it makes sense to have gone 45/25 to stretch out the time that the Good/Great Candidates are popping up on the ballot. But at the time, of course there would be a new batch coming up after them. Same thing goes for the US. Though with the death of the territories, the narrowing of US candidates should have been a bit more obvious. Still... 20/20 vision makes 45/25 + Joshi Rule pretty logical. At the time, not as obvious. 35 as a minimum, though, should have been something we thought more about. Just a dumb mistake on our part.

I did this back when the age discussions were being bounced around after Angle. Here's when people would have been eligible under various rules. My recollection is that I included everyone from the original class who wouldn't have made it under at least one set of age/debut requirements. Looks like through the Class of 2004, so I'll quickly add the 2005-2012 folks to it. I haven't added people currently on the ballot, like Tanahashi. Class '96 - Initial Class - Non-Voting Class '97 - Non-Voting Year 40 Years Old or 20 Years After Debut 1961 Mick McManus 1965 Hans Schmidt 1973 Lou Albano 1977 King Curtis Iaukea 1982 Masa Saito 1985 Buddy Roberts 1989 Bob Backlund 1992 Dennis Condrey 1992 Randy Savage 1993 Hulk Hogan 1993 Rick Steamboat 1993 Stan Lane 1994 Atsushi Onita 1994 Ted Dibiase 1995 Dynamite Kid 1995 Jackie Sato 1995 Terry Gordy 1996 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible) 1996 Bret Hart 1996 Satoru Sayama ------------------------- 1997 Jaguar Yokota 1997 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible) 1997 Road Warrior Hawk 1997 Vader ------------------------- 1998 Akira Maeda 1998 Devil Masami 1999 Negro Casas 2000 Chigusa Nagayo 2000 Dump Matsumoto 2000 Lioness Asuka 2000 Road Warrior Animal (Road Warriors eligible) 2000 Steve Williams 2001 Hiroshi Hase 2001 Mitsuharu Misawa 2001 Nobuhiko Takada 2002 El Hijo Del Santo 2002 Keiji Mutoh 2002 Toshiaki Kawada 2002 Undertaker 2003 Bull Nakano 2003 Masahiro Chono 2003 Shawn Michaels 2004 Jushin Liger 2004 Konnan 2004 Shinya Hashimoto 2004 Steve Austin 2005 Akira Hokuto 2005 Masakatsu Funaki 2005 Mick Foley 2005 Paul Heyman 2006 Aja Kong 2006 Chris Benoit 2006 Ultimo Dragon 2007 Eddie Guerrero 2007 Kenta Kobashi 2007 Manami Toyota 2008 Kurt Angle 2009 Kazushi Sakuraba 2009 Rey Mysterio 2009 Triple H 2010 Chris Jericho 2012 The Rock 2017 John Cena 45 Years Old or 20 Years After Debut 1969 Hans Schmidt 1973 Lou Albano 1982 King Curtis Iaukea 1985 Masa Saito 1988 Buddy Roberts 1993 Bob Backlund 1993 Dennis Condrey 1993 Randy Savage 1994 Atsushi Onita 1994 Stan Lane 1995 Dynamite Kid 1995 Jackie Sato 1995 Ted Dibiase 1995 Terry Gordy 1996 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible) 1996 Bret Hart 1996 Rick Steamboat 1996 Satoru Sayama ------------------------- 1997 Jaguar Yokota 1997 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible) ------------------------- 1998 Akira Maeda 1998 Devil Masami 1998 Hulk Hogan 1999 Negro Casas 2000 Chigusa Nagayo 2000 Dump Matsumoto 2000 Lioness Asuka 2001 Mitsuharu Misawa 2001 Nobuhiko Takada 2002 El Hijo Del Santo 2002 Road Warrior Animal 2002 Road Warrior Hawk (Road Warriors eligible) 2002 Steve Williams 2002 Toshiaki Kawada 2002 Vader 2003 Bull Nakano 2003 Shawn Michaels 2004 Jushin Liger 2004 Keiji Mutoh 2004 Masahiro Chono 2004 Shinya Hashimoto 2005 Akira Hokuto 2005 Masakatsu Funaki 2006 Aja Kong 2006 Chris Benoit 2006 Hiroshi Hase 2006 Mick Foley 2006 Undertaker 2007 Eddie Guerrero 2007 Konnan 2007 Manami Toyota 2007 Paul Heyman 2007 Ultimo Dragon 2008 Kenta Kobashi 2009 Rey Mysterio 2009 Steve Austin 2010 Chris Jericho 2012 Triple H 2013 Kazushi Sakuraba 2013 Kurt Angle 2016 The Rock 2020 John Cena 45 Years Old or 25 Years After Debut 1966 Mick McManus 1970 Hans Schmidt 1978 Lou Albano 1982 King Curtis Iaukea 1987 Masa Saito 1990 Buddy Roberts 1994 Bob Backlund ------------------------- 1997 Dennis Condrey 1997 Randy Savage ------------------------- 1998 Hulk Hogan 1998 Rick Steamboat 1998 Stan Lane 1999 Atsushi Onita 1999 Ted Dibiase 2000 Dynamite Kid 2000 Jackie Sato 2000 Terry Gordy 2001 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible) 2001 Bret Hart 2001 Satoru Sayama 2002 Jaguar Yokota 2002 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible) 2002 Road Warrior Hawk 2002 Vader 2003 Akira Maeda 2003 Devil Masami 2004 Negro Casas 2005 Chigusa Nagayo 2005 Dump Matsumoto 2005 Lioness Asuka 2005 Road Warrior Animal (Road Warriors eligible) 2005 Steve Williams 2006 Hiroshi Hase 2006 Mitsuharu Misawa 2006 Nobuhiko Takada 2007 El Hijo Del Santo 2007 Keiji Mutoh 2007 Toshiaki Kawada 2007 Undertaker 2008 Bull Nakano 2008 Masahiro Chono 2008 Shawn Michaels 2009 Jushin Liger 2009 Konnan 2009 Shinya Hashimoto 2009 Steve Austin 2010 Akira Hokuto 2010 Masakatsu Funaki 2010 Mick Foley 2010 Paul Heyman 2011 Aja Kong 2011 Chris Benoit 2011 Ultimo Dragon 2012 Eddie Guerrero 2012 Kenta Kobashi 2012 Manami Toyota 2013 Kurt Angle 2014 Kazushi Sakuraba 2014 Rey Mysterio 2014 Triple H 2015 Chris Jericho 2017 The Rock 2022 John Cena

You are correct. Agree on all this generally. Agree that there are reports that it was 3 year, $30M. I know when the Brat Pack as a group got famous. My point again is the Molly was over before it, as were others. Writers and books want to put it over as all happening together in a magical fashion, and that's not the case. If the worst time to release a film is January then the second worst time to release a film is February. No studio releases a film in February that they care about. So if they don't care about movies release in Feb, why was the next Hughes+Molly movie released in Feb as well? Stallone would release a Feb as well as he was just coming off his peak (only one underperformed movie after his peak). It's hard to image that the the studio didn't give a shit about it given Sly's salary. They could have easily have pushed it in March if that was a massively critical difference. I'm not pimping Feb as a great month. It's not May-Jul, nor Nov-Dec. But it's not the burial that January is, or that a similar movie getting released in September would be when kids are heading back to school. Okay, but is it a surprise to you that it made more money than The Breakfast Club? That was my point. I don't think people in the industry would compare a film like Sixteen Candles to a blockbuster. They'd compare it to Risky Business. I think at the time it felt like both Rambo and TBC overshot their number by about the same %. Rambo felt like it would do "Stallone hit" range of $100M with the hype, and did $150M. TBC coming off Sixteen Candles felt like it would build a bit off that, which would be $30Mish, and it hit $45M. Sure, Rambo had a clever marketing strategy playing on the 10th anniversary of the United States' withdrawal from Vietnam and created a media barrage where even Regan was commenting on the film. It was the same kind of play on American patriotism as Hogan. It was also a comparatively weak year for summer releases. But you don't open in that many cinemas unless you have big expectations. I agree. But big expectations don't mean $150M expectations unless you were part of the Lucas-Spielberg pipeline at the time. Sure, and going back to the original, original point, Hogan was a bigger star than Molly. Loss has Molly as bigger.

The native perspective might be a bit Stingish: He's a really big star! Of course mixing in he's the latest version of One Of The Greatest Worker Of All-Time, of which I think we've all lost track of since Angle came along.

1937-53 French Angel 1946-62 Primo 1978-99 Maeda 1998-13 Angle 1999-13 Tanahashi I'm not entirely sure that Maeda had the short career. As far as being "on top", I talked about it in the thread linked to above since Scott short changed the length of time Maeda was on top. It wasn't a short time. Longer than Tanahashi has hit yet, and longer than say Edge hit... longer than Trip had hit when he went in. John

I see Bix linked to the old Maeda thread as well. John

If you go back a few pages, his drawing record and time as an ace is being used as a negative, because it doesn't stack up to others in the past. Arguments such as, only TWO Sumo Hall G1 shows per year now? Pffft, back in the day they were doing five! Of course this ignores where New Japan was previous to this run. 1991 - 3 1992 - 3 1993 - 7 1994 - 5 1995 - 5 1996 - 5 1997 - 3 1998 - 3 1999 - 3 2000 - 3 2001 - 3 2002 - 2 2003 - 3 2004 - 3 2005 - 2 2006 - 2 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ) 2007 - 2 2008 - 2 2009 - 2 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ) 2010 - 2 2011 - 1 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ) 2012 - 1 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ) 2013 - 2 So Tanahashi was the Ace when they couldn't get it back up to 3 Sumo Hall shows for G1, and then the Ace when they dropped from 2 shows to 1. They "expanded" all of one non-sellout show this year. I'm not sure this helps. John

I don't think this point can be made strongly enough: Which I admittedly didn't respond terribly kind to, but I was also stone cold stunned by such a statement: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...=7;t=000257;p=1 I'd forgotten how entertaining that thread was. Dave pops in 14 posts into it with a red herring that would be obvious if he gave it 1 minute of thought. Then his second post had the Maeda comment, and sadly he wandered off and left Scott Williams to have to carry the Maeda Might Not Be A HOFer torch in ways that were funny. At the same time, Keith & Seven (who I recall who he was) & Mac (I don't recall who he was) & others were having a fun discussion with Todd Martin. Anyway... yeah... I again don't think we should view WON HOF Voters as coming down from the mountain with a pair of tablets. John

They have their same biases. They're not different than people here who vote Hennig or Moolah high. John

WON HOF voters aren't the "masses". They never have been, nor will they ever be. There are less than 400 of them, a large chunk of them in the business on some level. They are so far removed from the masses that it's not even funny. We sure as hell weren't the "masses" back in 1996 when we were putting the thing together. Hell, the "masses" of pro wrestling fans don't know who Tanahashi is. Pretty much just an increasingly smaller fanbase in Japan, along with some hardcores around the world. You're pretty consistently pushing a viewpoint of WON HOF Voters as being this: When in reality they, along with us, are this: We're a bunch of nutty pagans, from Dave on down to the rest of us. So skip the notion that there is any kind of "consensus" on all this. 58 people voted for Sasaki last year, and that was 1 vote short of getting in. No one really believes that 59 freaking voters represents a consensus of thought on Japanese wrestlers worthy of going into the HOF. Good lord, 183 folks voted for Cena. If that many people watched him on TV, he wouldn't be on TV. Masses...