Dylan Waco

There are two differences here.... Sting and Nash failed terribly as aces Koloff may have never really been an ace, but in his role (challenger/foil) there is no record I know of that shows failure. You don't have to cherry pick with Koloff to near the degree you do for Sting or Nash. I did the work on Sting last year - ace Sting drew sub 1986 AWA levels. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. Koloff was in demand and positioned well on the cards in shows that did big business in Toronto, WWWF, AWA, MACW and Georgia at minimum. Is being in demand enough? I don't know the answer to that, but I tend to think for non-aces, especially traveling heels from the territory era, it's a pretty useful way of looking at their careers. This is to say nothing of the fact that the cherry picked plusses for Sting and Nash wouldn't be in the territorial era which was governed by a completely different set of rules. Not in and of itself no. I think you need more than that. I understand the argument that maybe people need to present more detailed argument on Ivan, but I don't think anyone really believes his case boils down to "opponent for Bruno/Backlund." We don't know. What would have changed if Jim Brunzell had been WWWF champion and not Backlund? We don't know.

I don't know the context and I like Sombra fine for what he is, but I imagine if I put pencil to paper he wouldn't be a top fifty luchadore right this second

On Weston/London Mags I would argue they were effectively the first "national" promoters. I am 32 and every wrestling fan I knew and grew up with read them regularly - and this was largely at the tail end/after the territory era when the magazines were starting to become passe. To me the mags are the best promoters not already in.

I don't disagree with this at all as I'm not a Gene fan, but who would you rank above him? Jerry Jarrett Don Owen Takashi Matsunaga Stanley Weston Jimmy Hart Those are all people I think are safely better candidates than Okerland.

I'm not averse to Okerland, but I don't think he's one of the five best guys in his category. I remain unconvinced on Ventura, though I grant that a big part of what hurts him in my mind is the perception that people are voting for him for things that have nothing to do with wrestling.

This lack of respect for a future WON HoFer is disconcerting

Chris I know you will actually research and study the stuff which is why I think it's awesome that you have a ballot. I'd be interested in any stat research you do that leads to your conclusions on candidates btw. On Danielson, he's getting in on work alone. Even IF this main event push doesn't work out (and I have no position on that at this point) it wouldn't matter - he's considered the best worker of this generation and will get in for that. Whether he should or not is a completely different debate I actually think Punk will be a bigger argument than Danielson

I get your point and think it could help put one or both over especially if the show does well and Dave covers it big time in the Observer. My thought is that Panther should be in. I'm less certain on Atlantis (though I lean toward thinking yes), but A. I haven't seen much 80's Atlantis and B. based on what I have seen I think Panther is a vastly better worker.

I tend to think another reason people are voting for Brock due to looking over that weak collection of "I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES". People want to vote for Someone, and usually want to use up their 10 slots. If you're a fan who came of age in fandom largely in 1995-2013, then the pickings are slim. And look at those years again: it's nearly 20 years now. We're going to have more and more voters with that reference point, as older voters move on. Combine the two: looking for someone to vote for that they watched, and Brock having "cred" with those who give two shits about that bullshit. It gives him a base of voters. If Edge and/or Batista move off that list, with few people note getting added to the ballot in that grouping/"region", then Brock will get more and move votes. Yeah that is certainly a factor too. The funny thing is there are interesting guys in that category, but almost all of them were effectively finished by the time the MNW's came around.

I think Torres and Colon are two of the five strongest guys on the ballot and the other three are luchadores. I'm interested to see who is on your radar for a potential vote Chris I'm computerless this week. This morning I wrote down everyone and so I haven't run any numbers. Just reading the ballot, I ranked candidates into their three tiers based on my gut feelings within their territory. I took all my tier one candidates (about 27). Then I sorted that list into A (4), B (15), C (8). Among the B list, I ranked each of the people within the territory and took the top ranked person. The nine folks that emerged were: Matsunaga, Colon, Edge, RNR Express, Big Daddy, Atlantis, Sasaki, Koloff and Torres. Again, this was driven by gut reactions - not necessarily thoughtful evaluations. Colon and Big Daddy were the two that felt hardest to justify beyond regional legends but ultimately they felt like bigger deals. I am realizing that I can't speak meaningfully about Mexico, Japan, pacific with enough confidence so I have a lot more deliberation and evaluations to do. Also don't give up on my boy Patera, in case you haven' t heard I can make the case

I still think Daddy is the single toughest guy to evaluate on the ballot. On the one hand I understand the arguments against him (allegedly was part of what killed the business, terrible worker, for a guy who would be going in as a "draw" he would easily be the one with the least "meat" in terms of actual crowd sizes/gates, horrible reputation in the business, seen as a joke by peers and even fans), but having said that is really hard to see what the argument for other UK guys is when the guy virtually everyone concedes is the most well known wrestler in the history of the country is considered a "no" vote. I love Jim Breaks, think he was a great worker, I know he was often a title holder and appeared on tv more than almost anyone, but it really seems odd to argue that Breaks is more deserving than Daddy. Colon to me is not as tough as people say. If people want to say he shouldn't get in because he wasn't in demand enough or a star anywhere else I get the argument, but that means you have to contend with the counter argument that Colon was one of the most consistent drawing cards of the 80's and was in the main event of a whole bunch of 10k shows (most of which he was a promoter for and I have discovered from watching the footage that PR business was far from anemic in the 90's which is what you often here). I get that it's a flawed metric in many ways but look at this list compiled by Matt Farmer. Colon appears on it nine or ten times depending on how you want to count it. How many guys on the list appear that many times and AREN'T in the Hall of Fame? 980 ** Carlos Colon & Dory Funk Jr & Mighty Igor & Bobo Brazil wrestled at the National Stadium, Lagos Nigeria. Power Mike's promotion started airing old Eddie Einhorn tapes and sold out the stadium. Which holds 45,000 people** 1- 8/09 Bruno Sammartino vs Larry Zbyszko- Cage Match Shea Stadium, Flushing NY 36,295 (35,771 Paid $541,730 Gate Record. Vincent J. McMahon) 2- 8/02 Junkyard Dog vs Michael Hayes- Dog Collar Cage Match Superdome, New Orleans LA 28,000 to 31,000 ($183,000 State Record. Bill Watts) 3- 3/24 Bruno Sammartino vs Larry Zbyszko/ Bob Backlund vs Sika- WWF Title MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,102* (Duel Sellout. Vincent J. McMahon) 4- 6/29 Rene Guajardo vs Perro Aguayo- Hair vs Hair Match Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 23,000 (Francisco Flores) 5- 7/13 Perro Aguayo vs Rene Guajardo- UWA Light Heavyweight Title/ Villano III & America Salvaje vs Shazam & Ultraman- Relevos Suicida/ Blue Demon & El Solitario & Angel Blanco vs Dr. Wagner & Colosso Colosetti & Cesar Valentino Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 22,000 (Francisco Flores) 6- 9/22 Bob Backlund vs Harley Race- WWF Title vs NWA Title/ Andre the Giant vs Hulk Hogan MSG, New York City NY 21,000* (Vincent J. McMahon) 7- 3/01 Jan Wilkens & Apollo vs Sailor White #1 (Ed White) & Sailor White #2 Potgietersrus Stadium, Johannesburg South Africa 20,400* (Bull Hefner) 8- 1/21 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,200* (Vincent J. McMahon) 9- 6/16 Bob Backlund vs Larry Zbyszko- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,100 (Vincent J. McMahon) 10- 2/18 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera- WWF Title Pat Patterson Ref MSG, New York City Ny 20,055 (Vincent J. McMahon) 1981 1- 4/06 Bob Backlund vs Stan Hansen- WWF Title Cage Match MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 25,302 (MSG Sellout. Vincent J. McMahon) 2- 1/06 Harley Race vs Carlos Colon- NWA Title Roberto Clemente Coliseum, San Juan PR 23,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon & Gino Marella) 3- 04/18 Junkyard Dog & Dick Murdock vs The Grappler & Super Destroyer- Mid South Tag Titles Finals/ Dusty Rhodes & Andre the Giant vs Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy) Superdome, New Orleans LA 22,000 (Bill Watts) 4- 11/23 Bob Backlund vs Greg Valentine- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 21,104 (Vincent J. McMahon) 5- 2/16 Bob Backlund vs Stan Hansen- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,808 (Vincent J. McMahon) 6- 3/16 Bob Backlund vs Stan Hansen- WWF Title/ Andre the Giant vs Sgt. Slaughter MSG, New York City NY 20,500 (Vincent J. McMahon) 7- 6/20 Bob Backlund vs George Steele- WWF Title/ Andre the Giant vs Killer Khan MSG, New York City NY 20,091* (Vincent J. McMahon) 8- 8/24 Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco- WWF Title vs IC Title/ Andre the Giant vs Killer Khan- Texas Death Match Pat Patterson & Gorilla Monsoon Ref MSG, New York City NY 20,025 (Vincent J. McMahon) 9- 5/01 El Canek vs Tatsumi Fujinami/ Antonio Inoki vs Bob Backlund- NWF Title vs WWF Title El Toreo de Cuatro Caminos, Naucalpan Mexico 20,000* (Francisco Flores) 10- 6/08 Bob Backlund vs Angelo Mosca- WWF Title Pat Patterson Ref MSG, New York City NY 20,000 (Vincent J. McMahon) 1982 1- 8/22 El Santo & El Solitario vs Villano III & Rokambole (Villano V)/ Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata vs El Enfermero #2 & Flama Azul- Double Mask vs Mask Match (Santo Farewell Tour) Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 28,000* (Francisco Flores) 2- 9/12 El Santo & Gori Guerrero & Huracan Ramirez & El Solitario vs Perro Aguayo & Misioneros de la Muerta (El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro) El Toreo de Cuatro Caminos, Naucalpan Mexico 25,500* (El Santo's Last Match. Francisco Flores) 3- 7/23 El Canek vs Riki Choshu- UWA Title Change Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 23,000* (Francisco Flores) 4- 7/07 Ted DiBiase vs Junkyard Dog- North America Title/ Andre the Giant vs Killer Karl Kox/ Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs John Studd & Super Destroyer- Mid South Tag Tournament Superdome, New Orleans LA 22,800 (Bill Watts) 5- 2/15 Bob Backlund vs Adrian Adonis- WWF Title Texas Death Match MSG, New York City NY 22,034* (Vincent J. McMahon) 6- 10/04 Bob Backlund vs Billy Graham- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 22,101* (Turnaway Crowd. Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 6/05 Bob Backlund vs Jimmy Snuka- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 22,000* (Last Vincent J. McMahon card.) 8- 5/01 Junkyard Dog & Mr. Olympia vs Wild Samoans (Afa & Sika)- Lights Out Match/ Bob Roop vs Paul Orndorff- North American Title Tape Fist Match Superdome, New Orleans LA 21,000 (Bill Watts) 9- 6/28 Bob Backlund vs Jimmy Snuka- WWF Title Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 20,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 8/30 Bob Backlund vs Buddy Rose- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,000 (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 11/22 Bob Backlund vs Billy Graham- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,000 (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 12/28 Bob Backlund vs Billy Graham- WWF Title Lumberjack Match Swede Hanson Ref MSG, New York City NY 20,000 (Vincent K. McMahon) 1983 1- 6/12 Tatsumi Fujinami vs El Canek- UWA Title Change/ Tigermask (Satoru Sayama) vs Fishman- NWA & WWF Junior Title El Toreo de Cuatro Caminos, Naucalpan Mexico 30,000* (Massive overflow & Turn away crowd. Francisco Flores) 2- 10/04 El Canek vs Dos Caras- UWA Title Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 28,000* (Francisco Flores) 3- 9/17 Carlos Colon vs Harley Race- WWC Universal Title vs NWA Title/ Pedro Morales vs Ric Flair- WWC North American Title/ Andre the Giant vs Abdullah the Butcher (10th Anniversary) Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 27,000* (Some estimates as high as 32,000. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 4- 7/30 Bob Backlund vs George Steele- WWF Title/ Don Muraco vs Jimmy Snuka- IC Title MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,300* (Duel Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 5- 3/20 Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco- WWF Title Texas Death Match MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,109* (Duel Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 5/01 El Canek vs Tatsumi Fujinami- UWA Title Change Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 25,000 (Francisco Flores) 7- 12/26 Bob Backlund vs Iron Sheik- WWF Title Change MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 24,592* (MSG Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 2/8 Ric Flair vs Victor Jovica- NWA Title Ato Boldon, Couva Trinidad 24,000* (Victor Jovica) 9- 1/09 Ric Flair vs Jack Veneno- NWA Title Quisqueya Stadium, Santo Domingo DR 23,000* (Jack Veneno & Victor Jovica) 10- 12/18 Carlos Colon vs Ric Flair- WWC Universal Title Cage Match Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon PR 23,000* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) ** Did not include Starrcade 83'. Which if you include all of the CCTV Locations would be number one. The reason I include MSG/Felt Forums is because they are on the same complex.** 1984 1- 8/14 Antonio Inoki vs Bad News Allen Almin Sports Center, Islemabad Pakistan 45,000 2- 8/06 Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami vs Billy Crusher (Bill Eadie) & Bad News Allen Arbab Niaz Stadium, Peshawar Pakistan 40,000 3- 8/08 Antonio Inoki vs Masked Superstar Ghadaffi Stadium, Lahore Pakistan 35,000 4- 5/06 Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich- NWA Title Change (Parade of Champions) Texas Stadium, Irving TX 32,123 ($402,000 Jack Adkisson) 5- 8/10 Antonio Inoki & Riki Choshu vs Billy Crusher & El Canek Karachi National Stadium, Karachi Pakistan 30,000 6- 9/14 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs Carlos Colon & Abdullah the Butcher- AJ Tag Title (11th Anniversary) Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 29,383* (Announced as 34,383 $230,000 Thousands Turned Away. Gate Record. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 7- 1/23 Iron Sheik vs Hulk Hogan- WWF Title Change MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,292* (Duel Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 2/24 Hulk Hogan vs Paul Ordorff- WWF Title MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,262* (Duel sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 3/25 Roddy Piper & David Schultz vs Andre the Giant & Jimmy Snuka/ Bob Backlund vs Greg Valentine MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,092* (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 6/16 Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik- Boot Camp Match MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,092* (Duel Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 12/29 Hulk Hogan vs Iron Sheik- WWF Title MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,092* (Duel Sellout. Vincent K. McMahon) 1985 1- 8/13 Hulk Hogan vs Big John Studd- WWF Title State Fairgrounds, Columbus OH 50,000 ($50,000 Paid Show. Fair Addmission) 2- 8/28 Hulk Hogan vs Greg Valentine- WWF Title Michigan State Fairground Expo Center, Lansing MI 30,000 (Paid Show. Fair Addmission) 3- 7/06 Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff- NWA Title David Crockett Ref (Bash) Memorial Stadium, Charlotte NC 27,000 ($300,000 Jim Crockett Jr) 4- 5/05 Ric Flair vs Kevin Von Erich- NWA Title/ Kerry Von Erich vs One Man Gang- Kerry's Hair vs Gary Harts Hair (Parade of Champions) Texas Stadium, Irving TX 26,153 ($256,000 Jack Adkisson) 5- 3/31 Hulk Hogan & Mr. T vs Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff (WM) MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,121* (Duel Sellout. $517,000. CCTV 380,000 Total $3,800,000. Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 2/18 Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper- WWF Title (War to Settle the Score) MSG/Felt Forum, New York City NY 26,092* (Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 10/06 Kerry & Kevin Von Erich vs Gino Hernandez & Chris Adams- No Dq Hair vs Hair Match Cotton Bowl, Dallas TX 26,000 ($240,310 Jack Adkisson) 8- 9/21 Ric Flair vs Hercules Ayala- NWA Title/ Abdullah the Butcher vs Carlos Colon- WWC Universal Title/ Road Warriors (Hawk & Animal) vs Fabulous Ones (Steve Keirn & Stan Lane) (12th Anniversary) Hiram Bithorn Stadium, San Juan PR 25,000* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 9- 7/08 Hulk Hogan vs Nicoli Volkoff- WWF Title/ KOTR Tour: Don Muraco Sullivan Stadium, Boston MA 23,000 (20,000 Paid Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 8/10 Andre the Giant & Paul Orndorff vs Roddy Piper & Bob Orton Jr MSG, New York City NY 22,091* (Vincent K. McMahon) 1986 1- 8/28 Hulk Hogan vs Paul Orndorff- WWF Title CNE Stadium, Toronto ONT 64,100 ($800,000 CND Vincent K. McMahon) 2- 4/07 Wrestlemania II Closed Circuit Joe Louis Arena, Detroit MI 25,000* ($437,500) 3- 5/04 Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts) vs Kerry & Lance Von Erich & Steve Simpson- WCCW Six Man Tag Titles/ Rick Rude vs Bruiser Brody- WCCW Title Texas Stadium, Irving TX 24,121 (20,023 Paid $193,108 Jack Adkisson) 4- 4/20 Bruiser Brody & John Nord vs Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka- Cage Match/ Road Warriors vs Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy)- AWA Tag Title Cage/ Stan Hansen vs Nick Bockwinkel- AWA Title (Wrestle Rock) Metro Dome, Minneapolis MN 23,800 ($270,000 Verne Gagne) 5- 6/17 Hulk Hogan vs Big John Studd- WWF Title Tacoma Dome, Tacoma WA 23,000* ($215,000 Turn Away Crowd. State Attendance Record. Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 9/21 Ric Flair vs Invader #1- NWA Title/ Terry Funk vs Carlos Colon- WWC Universal Title (13th Anniversary) Hiram Bithorn Stadium, San Juan PR 22,300* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 7- 8/18 Hulk Hogan vs Don Muraco- WWF Title Montreal Forum, Montreal QUE 21,700* (Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 4/26 Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage- WWF Title Joe Louis Arena, Detroit MI 21,000* (5,000 CCTV at Cobo Hall. Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 10/17 Hulk Hogan vs Paul Orndorff- WWF Title Joe Louis Arena, Detroit MI 21,000* (Thousands Turned Away. Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 1/27 Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 20,225* (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 2/17 Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage- WWF Title Lumberjack Match MSG, New York City Ny 20,225* ($273,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 3/16 Randy Savage vs Tito Santana- IC Title MSG, New York City NY 20,225* (Vincent K. McMahon) 1987 1- 3/29 Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- WWF Title (WM3) Silverdome, Pontiac MI 78,000* (75,700 Paid $1,599,000. Vincent K. McMahon) 2- 9/20 Invader #1 vs Chicky Starr- Retirement & Mask vs Hair Match/ Road Warriors vs Dory & Terry Funk (14th Anniversary) Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon PR 23,000* ($400,000 CCTV Locations. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 3- 12/26 Honky Tonk Man vs Randy Savage- IC Title MSG, New York City NY 22,076* (Vincent K. McMahon) 4- 11/26 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Title Figure Four Match Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 22,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 5- 11/26 Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow & Paul Orndorff & Don Muraco & Ken Patera vs Andre the Giant & King Kong Bundy & One Man Gang & Butch Reed & Rick Rude- Elimination Match (S.Series) Richfield Coliseum, Richfield OH 21,300* (Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 2/21 Randy Savage vs George Steele- IC Title/ 20 Man Battle Royal: Hercules winner- Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant (SNME) Joe Louis Arena, Detroit MI 21,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 1/02 Hulk Hogan vs Kimala- WWF Title Tacoma Dome, Tacoma WA 20,476* ($209,443.50 Turn Away Crowd. Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 9/21 Hulk Hogan vs One Man Gang- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 19,745* (Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 10/16 Billy Graham vs Butch Reed- Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 19,700* ($235,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 2/14 Hulk Hogan vs Kimala- WWF Title The Spectrum, Philadelphia PA 19,416* (Vincent K. McMahon) 1988 1- 7/31 Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- Cage Match (Wrestle Fest) Milwaukee County Stadium, Milwaukee WI 25,866 ($350,000) 2- 1/30 Carlos Colon vs Iron Sheik- WWC Universal Title Chicky Starr Suspended in Cage Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 25,000* (Some Reported as 30,000* Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 3- 8/23 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Universal Title Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 23,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 4- 8/29 Mega Powers (Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage) vs Mega Bucks (Ted DiBiase & Andre the Giant)- Jesse Ventura Ref (Summerslam) MSG, New York City NY 20,000* ($335,345 Vincent K. McMahon) 5- 1/25 Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow vs Ted DiBiase & Virgil w/Andre the Giant MSG, New York City NY 19,750* (Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 11/28 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman MSG, New York City NY 19,700* ($240,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 11/04 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman/ Ultimate Warrior vs Honky Tonk Man- IC Title Bradley Center, Milwaukee WI 18,662* (Vincent K. McMahon)8- 6/25 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase- WWF Title Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 18,500 (Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 3/27 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase- WWF Title Tournament Finals/ Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- WWF Title Tournament (WM4) Trump Plaza, Atlantic City NJ 18,165* ($1,400,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 5/05 Perro Aguayo & Villano III vs Black Power I (Vincente Carbajal Salas) & II (Johnny Vanelli Guzman)- Double Hair vs Double Mask Match El Toreo de Cuatro Caminos, Naucalpan Mexico 18,000* (Carlos Maynes) 10- 9/30 Bestia Salvaje vs El Hijo del Santo- National Welterweight Title/ Fabuloso Blondy (Ken Timbs) vs Lizmark- NWA Light Heavyweight Title (55th Anniversary Part II) Arena Mexico, Mexico City Mexico 18,000* (Paco Alonso) 10- Royal Rumble: Jim Duggan/ Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant & Ted DiBiase Interview (Rumble) Copps Coliseu, Hamilton ONT 18,000* (16,200 Paid. Vincent K. McMahon) 1989 ** 8/29 Devil Masami & Shinobu Kandori & Miss A & Eagle Sawai Olympic Stadium, Seoul South Korea 37,000 (Free Show)** 1- 11/29 Akira Maeda vs Willie Wilhelm/ Nobuhiko Takada vs Duane Koslowski Tokyo Dome, Tokyo Japan 50,000* (48,000 Paid $2,900,000) 2- 4/24 Antonio Inoki vs Shota Chochyashivili- NJ Martial Arts Title/ Big Van Vader vs Shinya Hashimoto- IWGP Title Tourn Finals Tokyo Dome, Tokyo Japan 43,800 ($2,781,000. Wrestling Gate Record. Seiji Sakaguchi) 3- 5/04 Akira Maeda vs Chris Doleman Osaka Baseball Stadium, Osaka Japan 23,000 ($1,714,000) 4- 2/03 Mega Powers (Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage) vs Twin Towers (Big Bossman & Akeem) (ME2) Bradley Center, Milwaukee WI 21,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 5- 4/23 Rayo de Jalisco Jr vs Super Halcon (aka Halcon Ortiz aka Jose Luis Melchor Ortiz)- Mask vs Mask Match/ Loco Zandokan & Kahoz & Rambo vs Los Brazos (Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo)- UWA Trios Title Tourn Finals Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City Mexico 21,000* (Carlos Maynes) 6- 2/20 Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior- WWF Title vs IC Title MSG, New York City NY 20,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 3/18 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman- Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 20,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 8/28 Hulk Hogan & Brutus Beefcake vs Randy Savage & Zeus (Summerslam) Meadowlands Arena, East Rutherford NJ 20,000* ($350,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 9/30 Ultimate Warrior vs Andre the Giant- IC Title MSG, New York City NY 20,000 (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 1/15 Royal Rumble: Big John Studd/ Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage (Rumble) Houston Summit, Houston TX 19,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 2/18 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman- Cage Match/ Randy Savage vs Bad News Brown- WWF Title Street Fight Rosemont Horizon, Chicago IL 19,000* (17,900 Paid $223,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 4/23 Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage- WWF Title MLG, Toronto ONT 19,000* (MLG Gate Record. Vincent K. McMahon)

I think Torres and Colon are two of the five strongest guys on the ballot and the other three are luchadores. I'm interested to see who is on your radar for a potential vote Chris

I don't think there is any case for Lesnar as the equal to either of those guys in drawing power. A part of me just wishes Dave would start adding MMA guys into the equation. I know he did it one year as a separate category and stopped for whatever reason, but it is obvious that people will be voting for Brock for reasons that have nothing to do with his pro wrestling career. In fact if not for his UFC stint I don't even think Brock ends up on the ballot.

I think the Yohe argument for Brock is terrible, but I also think it comes out of the context of being a guy who has done a ton of historical research on wrestling from a period when shooting ability mattered.

Masters isn't an all timer BUT his 18 month or so run is about as good a run I've ever seen for a guy who got no chances at all from a storyline/angle perspective.

I have seen Regal assailed before as a guy who can't truly be a top level all time guy because he never worked a match that could have headlined Wrestlemania. I have seen people say that me calling Tracy Smothers one of the best/most versatile all around wrestlers I've ever seen is "silly" because he never worked anywhere near the top of a card other than SMW/USWA. I have been told that Scorpio was a good mid-card act, but saying he was better than Shawn Michaels in 96 is nonsense, because Shawn's matches felt like bigger deals and he had to "carry a company." I'm not sure that entirely answers your question, but that's where the idea for the topic came from

I consider Greg a main eventer in the sense that he was an in demand star, booked against top names in top programs for years. He wasn't an ace, but that doesn't mean he wasn't in a solid spot like that. Having said that a lot of the really good Valentine work is after he was a main event level guy...

This is part of what makes this thread interesting I think. I posted a few names and immediately someone who's opinion I respect responded saying he wasn't sure if a few of them really qualified. To me a main eventer is a guy who was on top or the near the top of a major promotion for a reasonably lengthy amount of time. I"d say at least a few years minimum. But then you have someone like a Greg Valentine who is a sort of middle ground player or a Ricky Morton who headlined in SMW and on the B circuit for Crockett...it's tough

Not sure about Saito. I love him, think he's great, but I could be convinced either way on him being a "main event" type guy. Kroffat and Furnas are great picks. I will say this for Ray Rougeau - if we had more Montreal I think he would be considered one of the forgotten great faces of the 80s

My instant thought was Greg Valentine but I don't know his card placement for the bulk of his Mid Atlantic career. I'd actually argue Valentine is far more of a main eventer (at least in my mind) than Finlay or Morton

My plan was to add detail when some other names were thrown into the hat. I specifically noted major promotion which is why I included Smothers, but could see the argument either way. Finlay's peak as a wrestler (in my view) is post Europe which is why I included him. Morton is tricky because he was an attraction and star of note, but I'm not sure you could really call him a main eventer in the sense that we normally use that term

I was thinking about this earlier as a common criticism you see of certain guys is that their matches lacked a "big match feel" or something akin to that. That doesn't make or break a match to me, but I understand it to a degree. Still when I think of who would rate highly on a depth chart for me, virtually every one I can think of in the top couple of levels is a guy who was a consistent top of the card level guy, if not out right ace/night in and out main eventer in a major promotion. So in this thread I was interested to see who would be the top guys we could think of who wouldn't fit in that category necessarily. Keep in mind that main eventing here or there does not disqualify someone for this, the point is where did they spend the bulk of their careers, particularly their peaks as in ring talents. I"ll toss out some names here, hopefully with some thoughts later. Fit Finlay William Regal 2 Cold Scorpio Tracy Smothers Arn Anderson Ricky Morton Bobby Eaton Brian Pillman

Run down the list of his matches. I can't remember the stuff off hand, but I remember the Mania match with Taker being okay and mainly notable for Lil Charles sprinting to the ring.

I have wavered on Sarge over the years. He is a serious candidate, with major positives. I would have no problem if he got in. But the more I look at things, the more I struggle with him relative to others. I don't think he compares favorably to Patera, Morales, Mr. Wrestling II, RnR's or Murdoch, though that doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't get in

Actually I've been careful to say in this thread and elsewhere that I think Ivan is the best guy on the modern performers ballot. I don't think Patera is terribly far behind him, but Ivan would be one. It's just that after Ivan and maybe the RnR's Patera is the next best guy