Dylan Waco

Picking up where we left off in the other thread. This is not meant as a troll, but what part of Tanahashi's offense is actually good? I'll accept the frogsplash variation he does, though I don't think it looks all that great in the grand scheme of things. Other than that...? I think the hooking clothesline thing he does looks as bad and/or hokey as pretty much every single Cena spot that is widely panned. This is obviously unknowable, but I can't envision any scenario where Cena would bring that spot into his moveset without it being condemned across the board as a weak/phony looking spot. His dragon screws don't look particularly sharp, though I wouldn't count that as a major mark against him because some of that goes to the guy eating the spot. On the other hand he has a bunch of variations of it that all look silly/non-hurty which annoys me to no end because he could seemingly work holds or strikes to a similar effect....except he's pretty bad at working holds and his strike are just terrible (more on that later). One of the reasons I like the last couple of Tanahashi/Okada matches less than others (though I did surprisingly think the G1 draw was pretty good all things considered) is because Tanahashi is just god awful working over an injury. I have watched hundreds and hundreds of indie matches this year and it is actually shocking the number of over-the-hill, just there to collect a pay check, vets and scrubs have more believable and compelling body part attacking offense then Tanahashi. Again I don't say that to be hyperbolic or melodramatic - I say that because watching the matches and watching him sort of slap down an arm on a canvas, loosely apply a weak hold, or manage to make a Texas Cloverleaf look something other than awesome really does stick out like a sore thumb. But beyond that there is another key difference to note about any comparison between Tanahashi/Cena offensively - the style and what is expected of them is very different. Both have obviously been successful aces regardless of how we feel about them as workers, but inside the confines of their own promotions and countries the expectations are vastly different. Cena is not now, nor has he ever been cast as a guy where high quality offense was expected or even a major part of the equation. Pretty much from the very start of his role as ace Cena has been a guy who's matches have been built around selling and overcoming odds. Of course we can find many exceptions to this, but my experience is that when Cena has to adapt and work a more offensively "heavy" style he is excellent at mixing in different and unexpected spots. He basically works the ritual of his schitck to his advantage for the matches that call for more "stuff" and gets big pops for his surprise variation. On the other nights he sells his ass off and builds to his comebacks. Tanahashi on the other hand comes from a scene that is much different in that regard. Often times he is called on to carry a match with his offense (this almost NEVER happens with Cena, even in matches that deviate from the overcoming the odds formula) - and his offense just isn't very good. Incidentally this is one of the reasons why I am uncertain that a Cena heel turn is a good idea - I'm not sure he can carry a match offensively through a heat section unless he's up against a very compelling babyface and/or a babyface who's size disadvantage can be played up dramatically (Rey being the obvious example here). This really could have gone in either thread but I'll respond to it here. First on strikes two things: 1. I don't expect a move to look like it will concuss an opponent, but I don't think it is asking too much for a trained wrestler to have punches or strikes that look like they might hurt a premature child with brittle bones. It's a pretty low hurdle to clear admittedly, but the point is I want something that I can believably accept a human being hurt by. There was a moment in the Tanahashi v. Ishii match from Day 3 of the G1 where Tanahashi had Ishii in the corner and started throwing body shots and it was actually jarring how awful they looked. The sort of thing where had I been watching with someone else I would have been embarrassed when they inevitably laughed at how transparently fake it was even within the confines of a wrestling match. That gave me flashbacks to when I was a kid and I saw a live match where Jimmy Valiant was throwing punches that missed by a foot - it wasn't quite that bad, but awfully close. 2. Context matters. Tanahashi works in a country filled with matches involving undercard and mid-card acts who are stiffing the shit out of each other or at least appear to be. Then the main event comes on and it's low impact ballet. It obviously works for him as he's a big star and very over, but for me as a fan it's just comes across as business exposingly terrible. I get that part of this is just expectations and the way we come to accept or not accept various things by the way. Like in other thread you mentioned how La Magistral cradles look innately fake to you because presumably one guy should just shove the either guy off. I started to respond to that and stopped myself because I really didn't know what to say to that. I get your point in a sense, but why don't people just duck when Tanahashi comes off the top rope? Why do people spring forward off of ropes back first, when they are whipped face first into them? To some degree or another there are things we have to accept in pro wrestling and I think every person is a little bit different about where they draw the line. I can't remember exactly what I said on the show, but my point wasn't that I haven't watched all that much NJPW, but that I don't follow the storylines/hierarchy of the promotion very closely. There are several reasons for that, but the key reason is that I don't like the two top stars, nor do I care for the new guy getting the main event push either. That also means it's not likely I'm going to go back and rewatch a ton of stuff that I have already watched because here is the thing - I've watched a lot of New Japan. In fact I've probably watched more NJPW than a lot of the bigger NJPW fans on the net I'm not going to do a full run down of what I've watched from them this year, but I think I've seen at least one match from every single NJPW show that's made tape this year, I've watched several in full, and several others almost completely through. It's entirely possible that I"ve actually seen more NJPW from this year than Meltzer which is kind of funny actually. I want guys who aren't good strikes to either not use strikes or not suck at it. The false dichotomy of "faux-MMA, concussion causing strikes" v. "everything else" isn't one I subscribe to, because within the category of everything else you have everyone from Jerry Lawler who has the best punch in history to Tanahashi who brings strikes that look like they would put him at a severe disadvantage against my ten year old daughter in a boxing match.

Snipping out most of your response for the other thread, but since this is non-Cena related I will just note that I have seen Tanahashi in exactly one match that I would call a classic, the match with Suzuki from last year where I honestly can't come up with a single thing he added to the match of note (other than addition by subtraction, i.e. not doing a lot of the worst things he tends to do). I am not high on Sasaki actually, I was just (and still am) confused some by the fact that people hate him so much. To me he was a perfectly decent wrestler, good on his best days, boring on his worst days, but not the sort of guy one would hate. And I agree with SLL's point about Sasaki/Kobashi being the lift off point of much of modern Japanese heavyweight wrestling, though I understand there is variation/nuance to be debated

That makes more sense. I mean I like Ishii and think he's easily the best guy in NJPW on any given night, but if you don't like one it makes sense you wouldn't like the other

When I get out of work I'll start a Tanahashi v. Cena thread so as not to muddle this down with non-Sasaki talk. I"ll also respond to the Sasaki related stuff at that point, but I think the Tana/Cena stuff is a conversation worth having.

I thought we had a thread for this year already, but it looks like we don't. Because of the Observer timeline the "year" for the purposes of those Awards is already three quarters over and I think this is an interesting year because I'm not sure what the consensus is even within that universe. For example normally I would figure Okada and Tanahashi as the leading contenders for Wrestler of The Year, but since Bryan is a messianic figure to such a huge cross section of smart fans it feels like he has to be the favorite for that award...maybe? Also MOTY feels wide open with several NJPW matches, plus the best couple of WWE matches likely to spread the vote out a ton. I think it will be interesting to see if the NJPW fans coalesce around certain candidates for those categories and others, or if they end up splitting the vote so heavily that a bunch of WWE stuff jumps ahead in the voting. Anyhow I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on the various front runners, who they will be voting for, criticisms, et.

Biggest flaw - it wasn't in the ECW Arena

I liked the setting and atmosphere of the show a ton on tv but it was shit on heavily at the time.

Trying to think of someone I'd rather see in WWE less than those two. Maybe Chuck Taylor. Maybe

I've talked about Tanahashi's offense in detail before and can't imagine how anyone could think it was good. The fact that a lot of the same people who slam Cena for his offense, praise Tanahashi is even more befuddling. I'm not a fan of the long chop exchanges either, to the point where I was often viciously smeared by puroholic's in the mid-00's because I dared question the sanctity of those exchanges. Having said that I am a bit miffed about how what Sasaki was doing is all that different from what someone like Ishii does. I like Ishii better and think he's a much stronger worker on the margins, but I also assume if someone liked a ton of the G1, they probably really liked something like Ishii v. Makabe (which I liked a good bit) and I don't see how that was all that different from a high end freelance era Sasaki match.

Tanahashi has terrible, terrible offense and is nowhere near compelling enough in any other way to make up for it. I don't think Sasaki is really terrible at anything

I liked this years G1 a good bit, but I'm not sure there was more than a half dozen matches in the entire tournament I would call very good or great. Lots of stuff I thought was decent or pretty good though. In any case I'm actually sort of confused about how Sasaki is a guy people can hate. He's fairly inoffensive, albeit not particularly interesting. He's also someone I see as sort of a front end guy in a lot of the bomb throwing/meaty heavyweight stuff that people went batshit for in the G1

I'm interested to see so many people who hate him. I"m largely indifferent to Sasaki, but I'd take him over the vast, vast majority of allegedly "great" Japanese wrestlers active today

I would hope no one was a Steve Regal fan boy, but I suppose anything is possible. I will grant that he is worse than Brody

Potential questions for symposium: 1. Who carried Brody more effectively Carlos Colon or Jerry Blackwell? 2. What other guys had looks and entrances as good but sucked as bad in the ring? 3. What other idolized 80's stars suck worse? (my position here would be none and that includes Sayama who had his moments) 4. How in the hell did he have some of his better matches with Dory Funk Jr. of all people? 5. True or False: Brody holding up and fucking with promoters was his biggest positive (I represent the True side of this argument).

I think it's pretty funny that Dave talked about how that one really over Brody match was all kicking and punching as if the critics of Brody are people criticizing guys with limited offense

I recently rewatched this and got the impression that Funk wanted to wrestle one way and Shane the other. The first time I watched it I was really impressed by the fact that Funk seemed to flip on a dime, but on second watch I see a lot of what you were saying here. A part of me wishes I had pushed for the Funk/Sabu house show match which is better

Loved the show, you guys did great work here. A few thoughts in no particular order. - I have seen people make the FMW/Memphis comparison before and I wouldn't dispute it for a second, but the more Puerto Rico I watch the more obvious it is to me that they took a lot from WWC as well. To some degree WWC/Memphis are similar but I think the "garbage" elements of FMW were more Puerto Rico than they were Memphis and in general I think FMW has a more WWC inspired feel to it. Also it would not shock me one bit to learn that Onita watched and learned from Colon as they strike me as very similar babyface workers in many ways (also very similar in other ways that I have covered before). I think it's interesting that you guys sort of place Jarrett and Waltman in a similar camp of guys that were really, really great and for whatever reason aren't remembered for their strengths. I know you guys are generally higher on Waltman which isn't surprising though I do find the Eddie comp interesting and would love for one of you to argue it in more detail. I do wonder if Jarrett/Waltman types might be worth a thread on their own but I have no clue how to phrase it. Was overjoyed to hear you guys talk about the Luger/Flair/Sting stuff as Dave and I said a lot of the same things on our Luger show a couple of weeks back. Seems like consensus is forming on that at least within our little core group. Also I would note that I HATED Warrior as a kid because his promos, look and act terrified me. Also my mother thought he was a black mass satanist.

Pretty sure it was part of a lawsuit settlement involving Heyman/WCW

Just think about how great Smothers/Guido with Rich in their corner would have been if they had actually had good opponents

The big difference between Hennig and Martel in terms of their decline is that Hennig was a mid-card heel and he was positioned as a guy to fly and flop around for others. He ran with that, abandoned any and all offense and became a caricature of himself. In my view Martel was protected a ton by being in a tag team setting AND by being face.

I am going to look at some of the Fusion this week Tim, but offhand do you know what any of the other dates for these shows are?

There were at least three Percy's, maybe four

I think it's interesting how people react to the slap fight sequence because some have loathed and others myself included have loved it to the point where I think it was a legitimately great spot and one of the main reasons I would rate it over Brock/Punk

This is what I figured but I haven't seen any of that footage in close to a decade and have no memory of it. I will make a passing reference to it, but note his Olympic background and family ties as the more likely reason for his use on the show. Thanks Kris

Bumping this because I am lazily working through a Gordy List on Patera for WON HoF season and I have two questions I need help with. Neither is terrible important BUT Backlund/Patera won MOTY in 1980. Here I just need to confirm that in the first couple of years they were solely Dave picks. I believe I have heard that Dave got some outside input on those early Awards but I'm not positive of it and don't want to include anything questionable like that which could be conceivably nitpicked to death. Also do you think it is fair for me to note that Backlund wasn't exactly a Dave favorite? Second question deals with Patera and the Strongman competitions. This is extremely peripheral, but one of the questions pertains to mainstream exposure due to wrestling fame and because of his participation in those events I don't know how to answer the question. I think it's fair to argue the events themselves were mainstream, but I what I don't know is if it is reasonable to conclude that his wrestling had anything to do with him landing the slot there. I know this doesn't matter much at all, but I'm trying not to be terribly speculative on these sort of things, especially since I have to be at least a little speculative in other areas