Dylan Waco

I had no clue John did the timeline which is hilarious when you consider the fact that I've "known" John for almost twenty years (holy fuck). Even back then I remember really loving the LA stuff which was interesting and not something I knew a ton about. Still fascinated with LA and wish I still had the Jeff Walton/Gary Cubeta podcasts to listen to. Funny to think about John and Yohe "conspiring" to slip some of that stuff in

Holy shit this is the best plug ever for a show we've done

I still have the first two

I think 92 WCW was really awesome. Catered very well to my interests. But it did not cater well to the interest of consumers. Were there external factors? Yes. But SMW was doing well in the same region and there is no way to excuse how poorly they were doing. The only explanation that works is "not enough people liked the product." Just because I think it's great and hardcore fans now really love the Dangerous Alliance doesn't mean it was good for business. I don't know that I would use John's tone there and I enjoy discussing wrestling with you Jerry, but I find it bothersome that JYD's run is being casually referred to as a fad. Was Hogan's run in the AWA a fad? Austin's in the WWF? Mr. Wrestling II in Georgia? Freebirds in World Class? Four years is an awfully good run in wrestling. Not everyone is Lawler or Colon as a homesteader or Andre as an attraction all over for years. Calling JYD's run a "fad" is weak and though I'm about as un-PC a guy as you'll find, but there I can't help but read it and think "would anyone say this if a white guy had that sort of record?"

The WWF shows had no strong angles for JYD. He was not a feature of week-to-week tv and build. There is a massive, massive difference. "Delayed" reactions aren't uncommon. The AWA slowly died over the span of several years.

It's really not hard to find cases in wrestling history where a town collapses because a hot star leaves and/or the product isn't delivering what the fans want to see. There is little reason to believe N.O. is different.

Bingo JYD was not a "fad" in any meaningful sense of the term.

Part of the problem in New Orleans and LA in general was the commission which was notoriously corrupt and you literally had to bribe them to do any kind of business at all. It wasn't worth it to run consistent major shows there by most accounts, though these accounts are from wrestlers and promoters so we can probably assume some hyperbole. In any event to my knowledge JYD was the first major wrestling star there and if you believe the lore Watts paying off the commission set the table for his run. JYD being a black sports star in a black town is where the Bruno comp comes in to me. He was an "ethnic" hero in a sense, but like Bruno a transcendent one.

Two things I would note: 1. I don't think "regression to mean" is the way you can look at the attendance fall after Dog because we don't have a lot of attendance figures pre-Dog in this thread. What we do know is that the prior to JYD, New Orleans was widely considered to be a completely dead wrestling town. My guess is that the "mean" being regressed to would have been a lot lower than 10k based on pre-Dog numbers. This is something you hear from Watts, wrestlers, fans and historians. New Orleans was not a hot week-to-week wrestling town prior to the Dog - The Dog MADE New Orleans a hot wrestling town. In fact it's possible that at his height JYD was drawing more fans per year in New Orleans, than any other wrestler was in any other city in the world. They weren't all black fans either. Yes there was a huge base of support in the black community, but it transcended race. Dog was a sensation and it's likely that he would have still been drawing very well - especially in New Orleans - into 87 had he not left. Frankly JYD meant much more in terms of drawing power to Mid-South, than Hogan did in the AWA when he bolted, but that's not the narrative that gets spun. From 80-84 it's arguably that JYD was the biggest draw in the entire country, if not the world. We just don't tend to think of it that way because he's not a favorite of smart fans, he did it on a regional level and he doesn't have the "look" that we stereotypically associate with being a draw (yes, I'm going there and yes I do think it's a factor in how he is remembered historically). 2. Beyond the point about expansion that John made, the move for expansion was nearly universal at that point among the groups that were still around. Crockett had made the jump. The AWA was well out of there comfort zone by 85, doing dumbfuck shit like running Alaska and split crew dates that diluted an already thin roster with some guys working traditional loop towns and others on the East Coast. World Class had a syndicated network and tv that went well outside of their region. My view is that to varying degrees there was a feeling of "go national or die." Vince was going to go to war on their home turf, cable tv was there, so expansion was seen as a means of survival. Every town became a warzone and if you ceded a neighboring region or town to Vince, you were given away way too much. The domino theory of wrestling I guess.

I don't buy that for a second. Vince McMahon doesn't need a reason to fire anyone. And Dylan has been touchy lately because Mark Henry isn't in the WC Match with Del Rio, and I agree. But don't let it turn you to the dark side, man. It'll be ok. I have no clue what is going on with any of this

No way Santel makes a top fifty. He's an interesting figure, but even Thesz had to admit that he was only marginally successful in the business. I don't know if Bock is a top twenty guy or not, but I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand. He was able to get value out of himself as a traveling champion and he was a heel figurehead that could draw and people could believe in in the AWA. It sounds insane, but watching the footage you get the feeling that the AWA was completely lost when he left. Obviously they were well into the decline already, but I don't think they were ever really the same after they took the belt off of him for Jumbo. He was also a great star, with drawing power as a tag worker before all of that. Eighteen does seem high on the surface, but I'm not sure it really is all that high.

Upset is the wrong word. Having said that I don't think it's a mystery why I am annoyed by the booking since I"ve gone into detail about it multiple times.

In an isolated setting I wouldn't disagree with this, but they basically used Paul Bearer's legit death as angle fodder all night long, HBK wasn't booked the way Punk has been for the last six months and he wasn't going for The Streak at Mania. I've said this before, but WWE was way better when I convinced myself to completely ignore their terrible writing and storylines and focus on Chris Masters matches

All I saw was an empty window yesterday. Now I see Mr. Mooney

I'm happy for him.

That's one of the problems with relying heavily on ratings data - without knowing the details of who had what stations and what was considered good for a certain era or business model it's tough. Not impossible necessarily. But tough. Also you need to look at quarter hours to get the best possible picture, though even that can be somewhat deceptive. In my case we ALWAYS had TBS on cable. But I can't speak for the rest of the country. Also, since John is back in the thread, I'd love for him to address the Colon v. Onita comp I outlined previously.

Don't give me that "wins and losses don't matter" dog shit, especially when the whole fucking premise of guys working Taker at Mania is that wins and losses are all that matter. Punk can play mind games all he wants. He hasn't beaten a top of the card guy in a meaningful match in god knows how long. Now he's jobbing - in a basically clean fashion - to Kane on Raw. No sane person thinks he's got any shot against Taker the way he's been booked, which in a sense makes the "grudge" match aspect more sensible because it takes attention off of The Streak. It really doesn't matter from a business perspective because Mania will do well no matter what and this match doesn't have to sell the ppv. But it further strengthens my feeling that Punk is the new Jericho (at best) and if they want to get any value out of him going forward he needs to take months off after Mania

Kane getting the win was fucking idiotic, unless they are abandoning the streak as a part of the angle at all and going with the "EDDIES DOWN THERE!" 2.0 gimmick revolving around Paul Bearer. If Punk can't beat fucking Kane, there is no way in hell he's even a marginal threat against Taker. You will get your wish and Punk will get his asskicked. Logically he should get about as much offense as Vince got against Bret a couple of years ago, but one way or the other I hope he is gone after Mania for a lengthy period of time.

Sting was the public face of a national company that was well covered by wrestling magazines that lots of kids read. It's not really surprising that he's seen as a "star." But he wasn't a draw. I think there is something to be said for looking at ratings and merchandising, but it's a lot of leg work and I'm not sure who is going to do it.

Rikishi was a star on a tv show for a couple of years too

Come on John, Give Sting a point for being ace of a promotion that drew at sub-1986 AWA levels

Shelley was supposedly screwed over by the WWE/TNA legal situation. No clue what he's doing now

Man you know they are desperate to try and make people interested in Punk v. Taker as a worthwhile match when they pull this shit to start the show.

Aries made me give a shit about TNA and I'd generally rather inject Herpes directly into my penis than watch more than ten consecutive minutes of their programming. I thought he was arguably the most charismatic guy in all of wrestling last year. Shelley is what he is. If you are into ironic, LOLOLOL, stuff I guess he's your guy.

We are on the back end of ratings being the most relevant metric (if they ever were and I don't think they were but I'm playing along). It's arguable they aren't even now and haven't been in some time. Sting was never near the "tv star" of any number of people who aren't in the HoF. Sting's bombing on top was during a period where the model was pre-MNW and live attendance mattered a ton. If you have followed the arguments for a while, you know that people have been citing ratings as evidence of drawing power for close to twenty years if not longer.