Childs

I think the notion of Shawn as one of the very greatest of all time has been fueled by WWE propaganda, no doubt. That was a major part of the conclusion of the Michaels DVD and Jim Ross, one of the most gifted salesmen in the business, has been pumping the idea for a decade. Anyway, I'm interested to know if Shawn's 5-year return run has influenced the opinions of folks here on the quality of his career. I've read the great posting battles that led up to his WON HOF induction, but that accounted for little of his later run. Though I'm not fond of a lot of his recent work, I do think the comeback added to his HOF legitimacy. But that's a gut feeling that might not hold up to real scrutiny. So I'm curious what you guys think.

Projects and Lists and Trading and Shilling. Thanks. PM'd you. -- Loss, 01/13

What were your thoughts on the Magnum/Dibiase matches Loss? I was a little surprised that none of the three made it higher than No. 13 on your list.

I recall some longtime WON readers such as JDW saying the Jumbo obit was one of Dave's weaker efforts. The abridged version in Dave's compilation book has a decent re-cap of Jumbo's early career and describes how quickly he became a great worker. But I found it quite thin on his ace years. As for comparing Flair and Jumbo, I see no problem there. Both are extremely well-documented on video. I mean, I'd love to get a better sense of what Jumbo was doing week to week in the 1970's, but I can't imagine that changing the way I look at him as a worker. I agree with Will. The only guys I feel uncomfortable judging are the pre-1970's guys who hardly made tape. I mean, the guys at Wrestling Classics think Liger isn't fit to scoop Danny Hodge's shit, but damned if I know.

Flair's TV match at the beginning of '87 with Barry Windham and a live 60-min draw I saw between him and Ronnie Garvin at the Baltimore Civic Center were the seminal moments that taught me wrestling could be more than a WWF cartoon. I think he holds the same kind of place for thousands of wrestling fans who actually care about the matches. So yeah, he's pretty damned important, even if the very best Japanese workers and a few others have eclipsed him in my pantheon. I suspect I might never have cared enough to find those other guys if not for Flair.

Open-ended question: Why do you guys think the Nigels of the world take the risks they do?

That's a good question. I would say no but I'm not sure it matters. If they want something and will pay for it, performers will find a way to give it to them.

I don't know. Boxing and football are pretty vicious. But that's neither here nor there. You're certainly correct that wrestling promotions such as ROH could and should force their workers to avoid ridiculous head shots. And guys shouldn't feel pressured to work when they're concussed. I'm just not sure I see a way to attack the underlying problem of wrestlers pushing the envelope when fans are marking out for this shit.

Also, doing anything at all in ROH for reasons of economics means you fucked up severely. Also, comparing risks taken in wrestling to risks taken in boxing or the NFL directly and seeing no significant difference suggests a major lack of perspective. 1) There's an economic driver in that some of these guys try to get over in the indys in hopes of getting to the WWE. But yes, some of them are just crazy which is why I said they're driven by money and passion. 2) There are clearly differences between wrestling, boxing and the NFL, but I think you're crazy to imply there's not an underlying link, which is that performers will do crazy shit to their lives and bodies for a paying audience. And as a society, we accept this.

Watching another human being, who clearly has psychological problems, run his own head full force into a hunk of steel is "entertaining as hell?" What in the name of fuck is wrong with you? Christ, I used to think only CZW fans would be better served just cutting to the chase and going to a geek show. Now I see many ROH fans are in the same boat. You've zoned in on one very particular happening without addressing the broader issue. No, I don't want to see a guy ram his head into a steel post when he doesn't need to. But yes, I enjoy a hard-hitting style of wrestling that breaks guys down over time. I mean, I'm an All-Japan fan too. Those guys have spent the last 20 years destroying themselves and many wrestling fans revere them above all others. Don't be a lazy debater by assuming that any ROH fan blanketly endorses all the happenings in the promotion.

I enjoy ROH overall, but they could use some road agent types to map the card better. They've improved since the early days, booking many more angles and strategically putting certain types of matches at appropriate points on the card. But the shows can still become numbing, with the same "crazy" dives to the floor in too many matches. I guess Gabe believes his fans like that constant big-move style, and to be fair, the crowds pop for the stuff. I went to the NYC shows last weekend and had a blast at the second one, which mixed types of matches pretty well (though with a spotfesty inclination.) As for the danger debate, I don't see wrestlers such as Danielson, Aries and Nigel differently than I do NFL stars or boxers. These guys all take risks for reasons of economics and passion. Am I completely morally comfortable with that? No. Do I find it entertaining as hell? Yes. As a society, we've clearly decided we're OK with this dynamic. As an individual, you can either live with your complicity or you can't. Now, I'm sure that as a small, largely unregulated company, ROH can play faster and looser with risks than say, the NFL. But that doesn't mean the underlying tension between risk and demand for performance is really much different. These guys will destroy themselves for us and that's disgusting on one level but alluring on another. That just isn't going to change. And it's too easy to trot out the Benoit thing as a possible fate for all concussed wrestlers. We've been wrecking our boxers and football players for decades and most of them don't go out and kill their families. We're really talking about these guys killing themselves. That's bad enough, but I think Benoit has become a bit of a red herring in these arguments.

1. How big of a WCW fan were you during the company's actual run Casual from '89 to '92, then pretty much disengaged until '96, then huge from mid-'96 to early '99. 2. Are you a bigger fan of WCW now or then? I'm a bigger fan of the early '90s stuff now than I was at the time. I'm less interested in the later stuff, though I still enjoy watching the old Nitros on 24/7. 3. Best Year/Period for WCW '89 was great for the stuff going on at the top. '96 and '97 were the years I got back into wrestling so I have warm memories. But at this point, I love '92. They had so much talent and it felt fresh because Flair was away for a bit. 4. Best World Heavyweight Title run Vader in '92-'93 was the greatest monster champion I've seen. 5. Best United States Championship run Can't say I have clear memories of that many, but Luger's run was the best period in his career. I dug the stuff in '89 where he was frustrated at being held down by Steamboat and Funk. 6. Best Tag Team Championship run Not sure. I guess the Outsiders, but their matches weren't any good. I really enjoyed the Dustin/Windham and Dustin/Steamboat pairings, but I can't remember how long each team actually held the belts. 7. Best Television Championship run Regal was my favorite TV champ and to this day, I'd be thrilled to watch him wrestle every week. 8. Best Cruiserweight Championship run Probably heel Jericho in terms of character, though Eddie and Rey obviously had better matches. 9. Best feud Vader/Sting ruled. Dangerous Alliance against the rest of the roster was great. 10. Most Underrated Feud Regal/Finlay isn't underrated now but I didn't get how cool it was at the time. Same goes for the Dangerous Alliance stuff. I really enjoyed Pillman against Windham. 11. Best Angle or Storyline The NWO saga seemed earth-shattering at the time, and I thought they did a good job stringing along the Sting in the rafters bit (albeit with a crappy payoff.) I loved the devolution of Jericho into a whiny egotist. 12. Most Underrated Angle or Storyline Nothing is leaping to mind. 13. Best Booker Don't know. 14. Wrestler who had the most surprising run Not sure how to answer this. I hadn't paid attention to wrestling at all in '95 and early '96, so I was surprised and amazed at the things Rey could do when he got his first big exposure on Nitro. I guess DDP's ascent to the top of the card was pretty surprising. 15. A worker they could have done more with Hart. Austin at the end though I thought they did plenty with him in his earlier years. 16. The worker who's most synonymnous with WCW for you Flair, though I'm not sure he was actually the best performer on the roster at any point in the '90s (maybe in 1990.) 17. The point where Flair got old When I look back, I see the signs in 1990, but in real time, I didn't see it until '94. I don't enjoy those late matches with Steamboat. 18. Best Face Steamboat was one of the greatest faces in wrestling history. Later WCW swung so dramatically to the heel side that it gets harder, but I loved Rey as a face. 19. Best Heel Hogan. I tuned in for years hoping to see him get his comeuppance. Vader was a great monster but that made me like him, not root against him. 20. Most Underrated Face I underrated Dustin at the time, but he's not underrated anymore. 21. Most Underrated Heel Rude has come to be appreciated but I missed his excellence at the time. Barry Windham could seem like the most vicious bastard in the world and might not get quite enough credit for it. 22. The worker who was most effective whether they were heel or face Windham. I can't think of a more versatile wrestler. Not only could he switch sides, he could do all sorts of gradations of heel or face. 23. A worker who turned (heel or face) too many times Giant, Flair, Luger, Hart. No great insight there. 24. Favourite Commentating Pairing Ross and Ventura. 25. Lasting Memory of WCW Despite all the nonsense, they were much more progressive than WWE about putting different types of excellent workers into showcase spots. I discovered most of my favorites from the last 20 years by watching WCW.

I get irritated when I read gushing reviews of a match and it turns out to be nothing but spot after spot after spot to the point where it's numbing. I often have this experience with Briscoes matches in ROH and also felt that way about KENTA/Ishimori v. Marufuji/Ibusha from 7/15/07. I enjoy the eye candy for awhile but I lose interest and can't understand why people consider these MOTYCs. It would be like Transformers winning best picture. Anyway, others overreact to that type of irritation by fetishizing guys who work gripping matches around simple move sets. Lawler seems to be the most cited example. I guess I fall in the middle. I'd rather watch a high-end Lawler match than most Briscoes matches, but there are times when I wish Lawler would use more moves (because I know he had a fair amount and executed them very well.) My favorite workers are guys like Harley Race and Jumbo and Kawada, who toss high-end offense into every match but do it judiciously. I love watching Bryan Danielson, who has a huge bag of moves but at this point, doesn't feel compelled to use them all in every match.

I don't know how I'll react to this long-term. I certainly understand the folks who feel, right now, that they never want to see another Benoit match. I was thrilled to receive Goodhelmet's Finlay comp in the mail yesterday. But as the news started to break, I wondered if I'd want to watch the Benoit matches. I can't imagine enjoying them right now. But at the same time, I thought of his upcoming Guerrero comp and found myself hoping that the Benoit matches would stay on that one because they're such a tribute to Eddy's art. This is all very trivial compared to the main story, but these are clearly the sorts of things we think about when a public person does the unthinkable. So I guess it's worth discussing in a glimpse of the human mindset kind of way. Sorry, I'm rambling -- just don't have a compass on this one.

What amazed me about Widham in going through Goodhelmet's comp was that even in 1999, when most of his athletic ability had left him, he didn't suck. He gets picked on for having a short peak and it's true that he wasn't consistent over his career. But he was damn good as early as 1983 and still had redeeming qualities as a broken down heel 16 years later. That impressed me.