Childs

Trying to breath life into the AOTF angle?

I suspect Vince is genuinely disconcerted by an ex-wrestler who doesn't need the business. He's just so used to being on the power end of his relationships, even with Hogan, who was a bigger star in a wrestling context than the Rock.

John, I've seen you mention elsewhere that the Japanese wrestlers prepared better for the punishment. How did they do it? Just curious.

In general though, it seems like a strange time to pick on the WWE's direction. Most fans seemed extremely happy with the last two PPVs. and the two main events at Mania are set to pay off long-simmering feuds between the company's biggest stars. Plus, Hardy's push is likely to continue with a spectacular win in the MITB. I mean, what the hell do you want? If you don't like what's going on now, you're probably not meant to be a fan of the E.

I'm sort of speculating but I gather that as a Heyman disciple, he leans toward giving them a free hand. Heyman has always said that ECW worked to the extent it did because he let guys be themselves.

Yeah, I'm a boxing fan and as much as I respect Floyd's skill, he can't touch 1998 Tyson for general name recognition. He also doesn't bring the crazed, "what might he do?" vibe that Tyson offered. That's not to say the angle is a bad idea. Floyd can be plenty entertaining.

Wade's not off base with the important secondary source thing. He did a lot of excellent reporting on the McMahon steroids trial and other big stories. If you were writing a serious history of pro wrestling, you would definitely want to read old Torches, though the current product is usually pretty flimsy.

I think a lot of it is because they've released those matches on other DVDs. Well, maybe that's not the reason for the Rock and Jericho stuff, but the famous Foley match is on Foley's DVD, the two best Shawn matches are on his DVDs and the long 2/3 falls Austin match is on the Austin DVD that just came out. I'm also guessing that they don't view this as the definitive career-spanner for the great son-in-law.

Those numbers are striking, of course, but they speak more to the company's inability to expand than to any loss of the audience that propped it up in the first place. I think we can all agree that there's not a mainstream interest in what they're peddling, but that need not be a death knell.

You raise a lot of good points about the nature of an indy promotion. But I would be surprised if the fading away happens all this year. ROH still has a strong core audience in its main cities and I won't be surprised if it chugs along in its niche mode as long as Gabe and Cary Silkin remain interested. I just don't think they've overreached to the point where a real death spiral has begun. Now, if Cary pulls out or they lose Danielson and the Briscoes, that would be a different story. Certainly, you're correct that they haven't created a business model that would demand to be sustained once the key players move on. And this all goes with the caveat that we have little knowledge of the actual state of their finances. Personally, I'm not rooting for their demise, because booking foibles aside, they churn out dozens of matches a year that I enjoy.

Yahoo Sports signs its writers to contracts. My guess is that Dave's first contract wasn't that lucrative because the competition for MMA writers isn't the same as it is for, say, top baseball writers (who make about $125K at Yahoo.) That said, I suspect it's a nice supplementary chunk of change and that given the interest in his articles, he'll be able to ask for a significant bump the next time around. Yahoo has been smart in becoming a news leader in MMA, where there's still a real vacuum of attention from major newspapers, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, etc. I suspect they'll have an interest in protecting their lead in that area (unless our national fascination with the sport just nosedives or Yahoo drops its investment in providing content.)

De La Hoya-Mayweather just set the record at 2.4 mil, I think. Boxing's top 10 would blow away wrestling's top 10 for buyrate, but in terms of a single business entity making money on PPV month after month, WWE is probably all-time king.

I think the notion of Shawn as one of the very greatest of all time has been fueled by WWE propaganda, no doubt. That was a major part of the conclusion of the Michaels DVD and Jim Ross, one of the most gifted salesmen in the business, has been pumping the idea for a decade. Anyway, I'm interested to know if Shawn's 5-year return run has influenced the opinions of folks here on the quality of his career. I've read the great posting battles that led up to his WON HOF induction, but that accounted for little of his later run. Though I'm not fond of a lot of his recent work, I do think the comeback added to his HOF legitimacy. But that's a gut feeling that might not hold up to real scrutiny. So I'm curious what you guys think.

Projects and Lists and Trading and Shilling. Thanks. PM'd you. -- Loss, 01/13

What were your thoughts on the Magnum/Dibiase matches Loss? I was a little surprised that none of the three made it higher than No. 13 on your list.

I recall some longtime WON readers such as JDW saying the Jumbo obit was one of Dave's weaker efforts. The abridged version in Dave's compilation book has a decent re-cap of Jumbo's early career and describes how quickly he became a great worker. But I found it quite thin on his ace years. As for comparing Flair and Jumbo, I see no problem there. Both are extremely well-documented on video. I mean, I'd love to get a better sense of what Jumbo was doing week to week in the 1970's, but I can't imagine that changing the way I look at him as a worker. I agree with Will. The only guys I feel uncomfortable judging are the pre-1970's guys who hardly made tape. I mean, the guys at Wrestling Classics think Liger isn't fit to scoop Danny Hodge's shit, but damned if I know.

Flair's TV match at the beginning of '87 with Barry Windham and a live 60-min draw I saw between him and Ronnie Garvin at the Baltimore Civic Center were the seminal moments that taught me wrestling could be more than a WWF cartoon. I think he holds the same kind of place for thousands of wrestling fans who actually care about the matches. So yeah, he's pretty damned important, even if the very best Japanese workers and a few others have eclipsed him in my pantheon. I suspect I might never have cared enough to find those other guys if not for Flair.

Open-ended question: Why do you guys think the Nigels of the world take the risks they do?

That's a good question. I would say no but I'm not sure it matters. If they want something and will pay for it, performers will find a way to give it to them.

I don't know. Boxing and football are pretty vicious. But that's neither here nor there. You're certainly correct that wrestling promotions such as ROH could and should force their workers to avoid ridiculous head shots. And guys shouldn't feel pressured to work when they're concussed. I'm just not sure I see a way to attack the underlying problem of wrestlers pushing the envelope when fans are marking out for this shit.

Also, doing anything at all in ROH for reasons of economics means you fucked up severely. Also, comparing risks taken in wrestling to risks taken in boxing or the NFL directly and seeing no significant difference suggests a major lack of perspective. 1) There's an economic driver in that some of these guys try to get over in the indys in hopes of getting to the WWE. But yes, some of them are just crazy which is why I said they're driven by money and passion. 2) There are clearly differences between wrestling, boxing and the NFL, but I think you're crazy to imply there's not an underlying link, which is that performers will do crazy shit to their lives and bodies for a paying audience. And as a society, we accept this.

Watching another human being, who clearly has psychological problems, run his own head full force into a hunk of steel is "entertaining as hell?" What in the name of fuck is wrong with you? Christ, I used to think only CZW fans would be better served just cutting to the chase and going to a geek show. Now I see many ROH fans are in the same boat. You've zoned in on one very particular happening without addressing the broader issue. No, I don't want to see a guy ram his head into a steel post when he doesn't need to. But yes, I enjoy a hard-hitting style of wrestling that breaks guys down over time. I mean, I'm an All-Japan fan too. Those guys have spent the last 20 years destroying themselves and many wrestling fans revere them above all others. Don't be a lazy debater by assuming that any ROH fan blanketly endorses all the happenings in the promotion.