Childs

SLL, I think you make good points about the enduring strength of simple narrative structure. I'm not sure I agree, however, that all dramatic tension stems from the morality play that you describe. I see at least two other major types of wrestling narrative. One features the talented young performer, trying to carve out his place in a rigidly hierarchical world. The great All-Japan feuds, for example, never struck me as good vs. evil. There were underdog themes, but the guy everyone was chasing, Misawa, was the picture of grace under pressure, a hero in his own right. His efforts to defend his spot carried as much nobility as Kawada's dogged efforts to knock him off. Kawada was easier to identify with -- this dumpy little guy with no teeth who was never the chosen one but willed his way near Misawa's level. But those matches struck me as dramas about social position rather than quests to uphold ideals against great forces. The other type of narrative that comes immediately to mind is your basic tactical battle. It goes back to childhood questions like: If an alligator fought a tiger, who would win? That can take on a moral component, I suppose. The UWFI guys really did believe their techniques were more "authentic" than those practiced by Inoki. But I think a lot of wrestling is just, "Can my method beat yours?" Granted, that can lead to a lot of unmemorable, empty feeling matches. But if you have two practicioners who are skilled enough, it can be a lot of fun. None of that takes away from your overarching point. I wondered if you considered addressing in the essay why, given the tried-and-true nature of his storyline, fans react to Cena with such ambivalence. Is it because he was pushed beyond his skill level and by the time he became really good, booing him was entrenched as the "cool" thing to do? Or are fans somehow less tolerant of the "against all odds" hero than they were in the Hogan era? I tend to think it's more the first reason. But I wondered if you thought about delving into that.

Anybody see Joe vs. Angle? I was just wondering if it was any good.

I'm finding this Race discussion fascinating. I have to admit that my knee jerk reaction was, "Phil is crazy." But then I thought about the great Race matches I've seen and indeed, they were all against superworkers like Jumbo, Lawler, Flair, etc. I get excited when I see him in a '70s match because he did have a lot of offense relative to the era. I wonder if that just means he was like a color movie in the 1930s - visually enticing but not necessarily great. I'm not sure I've seen many matches between him and guys who needed to be carried. I hope Will's set will eventually shed more light on his overall work. Did enough of his stuff make tape to give us a rounded picture? I'd like to hear from some Harley lovers because I honestly don't feel I know enough to render judgement.

Did they only wrestle once? I have a Barnett disc with a match between them from Tijuana in early '97. But that's the only one I've come across. Excellent match.

Wild II vs. KENTAfuji from the 7/06 Budokan show, if I remember correctly. Although I also remember that match being pretty awesome, but not quite as awesome as advertised, fwiw. That was definitely the match that got him talking about Morishima as a revolutionary heavyweight. I just never remembered him actually putting Mori above Gordy. Anyway, yeah, that match actually was good and Morishima had some very good matches in 2007. I'm rooting for the guy, but he's had what, maybe 10 excellent matches in his career?

Did you guys notice that Dave called Morishima a better worker than Gordy in the latest Observer? I know he's expressed love for him previously but good lord.

I don't recall saying this. Can you point me to a post or something so I can see what was said? John I went back and read the thread I was thinking of, and that's not what you were saying. My bad. Where is the thread? I'd be interested in reading what other stupid things I may have been saying at the time. John http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=4751

I don't recall saying this. Can you point me to a post or something so I can see what was said? John I went back and read the thread I was thinking of, and that's not what you were saying. My bad.

God, what a clusterfuck that match would be.

Trying to breath life into the AOTF angle?

I suspect Vince is genuinely disconcerted by an ex-wrestler who doesn't need the business. He's just so used to being on the power end of his relationships, even with Hogan, who was a bigger star in a wrestling context than the Rock.

John, I've seen you mention elsewhere that the Japanese wrestlers prepared better for the punishment. How did they do it? Just curious.

In general though, it seems like a strange time to pick on the WWE's direction. Most fans seemed extremely happy with the last two PPVs. and the two main events at Mania are set to pay off long-simmering feuds between the company's biggest stars. Plus, Hardy's push is likely to continue with a spectacular win in the MITB. I mean, what the hell do you want? If you don't like what's going on now, you're probably not meant to be a fan of the E.

I'm sort of speculating but I gather that as a Heyman disciple, he leans toward giving them a free hand. Heyman has always said that ECW worked to the extent it did because he let guys be themselves.

Yeah, I'm a boxing fan and as much as I respect Floyd's skill, he can't touch 1998 Tyson for general name recognition. He also doesn't bring the crazed, "what might he do?" vibe that Tyson offered. That's not to say the angle is a bad idea. Floyd can be plenty entertaining.

Wade's not off base with the important secondary source thing. He did a lot of excellent reporting on the McMahon steroids trial and other big stories. If you were writing a serious history of pro wrestling, you would definitely want to read old Torches, though the current product is usually pretty flimsy.

I think a lot of it is because they've released those matches on other DVDs. Well, maybe that's not the reason for the Rock and Jericho stuff, but the famous Foley match is on Foley's DVD, the two best Shawn matches are on his DVDs and the long 2/3 falls Austin match is on the Austin DVD that just came out. I'm also guessing that they don't view this as the definitive career-spanner for the great son-in-law.

Those numbers are striking, of course, but they speak more to the company's inability to expand than to any loss of the audience that propped it up in the first place. I think we can all agree that there's not a mainstream interest in what they're peddling, but that need not be a death knell.

You raise a lot of good points about the nature of an indy promotion. But I would be surprised if the fading away happens all this year. ROH still has a strong core audience in its main cities and I won't be surprised if it chugs along in its niche mode as long as Gabe and Cary Silkin remain interested. I just don't think they've overreached to the point where a real death spiral has begun. Now, if Cary pulls out or they lose Danielson and the Briscoes, that would be a different story. Certainly, you're correct that they haven't created a business model that would demand to be sustained once the key players move on. And this all goes with the caveat that we have little knowledge of the actual state of their finances. Personally, I'm not rooting for their demise, because booking foibles aside, they churn out dozens of matches a year that I enjoy.

Yahoo Sports signs its writers to contracts. My guess is that Dave's first contract wasn't that lucrative because the competition for MMA writers isn't the same as it is for, say, top baseball writers (who make about $125K at Yahoo.) That said, I suspect it's a nice supplementary chunk of change and that given the interest in his articles, he'll be able to ask for a significant bump the next time around. Yahoo has been smart in becoming a news leader in MMA, where there's still a real vacuum of attention from major newspapers, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, etc. I suspect they'll have an interest in protecting their lead in that area (unless our national fascination with the sport just nosedives or Yahoo drops its investment in providing content.)

De La Hoya-Mayweather just set the record at 2.4 mil, I think. Boxing's top 10 would blow away wrestling's top 10 for buyrate, but in terms of a single business entity making money on PPV month after month, WWE is probably all-time king.