Childs

I could see having Funk higher if we had a good accounting of his NWA title run. But based on what we have, I voted Flair higher and easily. Terry's highs in the late '70s and '80s were remarkable and demonstrated remarkable range. But a lot of those years are thin on volume. And I'm just not a big enough fan of old man Terry for his '90s work to negate Flair's mass of peak quality.

Shit, I really thought Hansen would beat Funk. Well, he was already my avatar, so that's easy.

I would say that Misawa didn't as clearly bookend his career because he was still active with no sign of retiring, within I'd say conservatively the next 5 years liberally 10, before his untimely passing so it could be contended that he would have done more to add to or detract from his case which leaves that little bit of open-endedness to his career that the other do not have even-weirdly, Funk who is still wrestling feels like his career is very much concluded because over the past few years it has become very obvious exactly what he can produce with his body completely broken down and it has in no way really effected his over all case. A very odd nit to pick I know but reading your break down made me feel inspired this fine Friday morning Meltzer said Misawa was actually talking about doing a retirement tour soon in the months leading up to his death. Also just look at how he was moving in his last year. There is no way he could have wrestled 5 more years unless you just mean doing tags where he spends the match on the apron and only does a few elbows. That is exactly what I meant people were already starting to sour on him and in some ways it tarnish his legacy I think if he had stuck around he would have ended up with something similar to Tenryu's last few years with one or two big time performances with younger guys sprinkled in and at the end of the day he wouldn't been seen in the same light he is today. Once again we live in the world the way it is not they way it could be but it's a major what if. You really think Tenryu's last few years had any significant impact on his legacy? Almost every wrestler holds on too long. Misawa already had. I don't believe his particular ending was much of a factor here.

Yeah, I thought he'd tie with Vader for being on the most ballots. Boricua, did you exclude the big All Japan guys because you haven't watched a lot of them or because you don't like the style?

Misawa not only appeared on more ballots than Kobashi or Kawada; he whipped them on both top 10 and top 3 votes. That is not something I would have guessed coming in. But as I said on the podcast, he was the best I've ever seen on his best night. So no complaints.

It's kind of amazing that Rey is going to beat Kawada and Kobashi. I don't agree with it and yet I'm kind of happy about it.

People seem to forget that Flair finished 8th in the SC poll, so actually, a win for him would represent change of a minor sort. But I'm still not convinced he's beating Hansen.

Both you and Dylan have touched upon one of the three things that have "irked" me about the results (although a more precise and honest term is disappointment due to my personal viewpoints). When El Hijo del Santo placed where he did, I suspected that Casas was going to drop soon after. Setting aside Rey Mysterio Jr. and Eddie Guerrero (whose roots are definitely lucha but whose resumes go beyond just their work in Mexico), no wrestler whose case is based on their career in Mexico made the top twenty. And, that's actually a plausible result. Lucha is a style that developed differently from the U.S style, being more theatrical and culturally based. Someone who's used to the U.S style or Japan heavyweights, watching lucha is a definite change from what they are used to. Not everybody will like it, and that's fine. After all, I'd say the majority of us watch wrestling for the entertainment, fun and emotional roller coaster it can provide, so trying to watch something that feels like chore makes one question why even bother with it. But in the abstract, and this goes in line with what Dylan was mentioning, it's hard to explain the results of the list to someone in general terms and not make it sound weird. A style that has had an established national company for more than 80 years, with the history and influence it has had across all of Latin America, has not produced a top twenty wrestler in all that time. Yet, three men who were direct contemporaries in Japan, who constantly wrestled with and against each other, are in the top twelve. And in the abstract it seems off, but if I'm being honest, it's a valid and explainable result when you dig into the context. Lucha is a style with it's pitfalls for entry if you are coming into it cold and the results reflect this. Ultimately, this list is a guide. For those that have no idea about the different styles, regions or wrestlers that are on it, the list represents an opportunity to maybe seek out something they had no idea was out there. For those that weren't able to get to certain styles, regions or wrestlers in their viewing, or who weren't able to probe deeply enough to their liking in order to form a personal opinion they were comfortable with (full disclosure, I fall into this group), the list represents a suggestion of maybe where to look at next. And for those who gave it a try and formed an opinion (either that they liked or didn't like what they were viewing), kudos for daring to go beyond your usual comfort zone and giving something else a try. Regardless of what your thoughts were, your opinion is part of the list and just as valid. Hopefully you'll continue giving other styles, regions and/or wrestlers a fair shot and maybe you'll find something new to you that speaks to you as well as what you are used to. Hopefully the last reveals will be just as fun as the process so far. Boricua is the best statesman. Can we elect him to something? Jimmy could be his filthy-tongued vp.

Shouldn't make the top 10 because he just wasn't that good. He's better than every Dragon Gate wrestler combined, ever.

He's cleary leading the match vs. Nagata and vs. Rikioh in 2005/6. Both are great matches though I can't really think of huge Taue carry jobs. But then again I'm not sure I can do the same for Kobashi. Carry jobs are vastly overrated. If you're surrounded by great wrestlers, and your job is to go out and have great matches and you hold up your end for 15 years, you're fucking great. Period.

The 20 people who didn't vote for Tenryu are horrible. I'm kidding ... maybe.

What in the name of fuck. We think knowledge has gone out into the world, and then the world looks back at us and laughs.

Oh please. I love Hash but to suggest he was the only Japanese main eventer (or one of two?) who demonstrated those qualities is absurd.

I agree with everything said here. See, I think the underachiever line has been stuck to Windham for so long that some people actually underrate his output. We have him looking great on tape as early as 1983. He has the outstanding 1986-88 peak and then another run nearly as good from 1990-93. And within those peaks, he shined in nearly every role you could imagine him occupying other than promotional ace. Honestly, can Bret or Savage better that? Can Austin? I don't think comparing him to 3 guys who are also getting ranked way too high and who are some of the clearest evidence of the lists's mainstream US slant does much to help him. Windham is overrated as hell. I don't think there's any worker out there who gets the same free pass for disappointing performances and being shit for long portions of his career as Windham. How many other top 25 candidates are there with big matches from their prime as bad as the Muta match at Superbrawl? Looking past the Flair matches his 80's resume is also surprisingly thin and his good 90's work is more fun midcard stuff than it his all-time great level stuff. I think it's a given that he's not better than Santo and Akiyama but I don't even see an argument for him being better than JCP contemporaries Morton and Eaton, both of whom destroy him in output and longevity. I agree about Santo and Akiyama. You could add Satanico, Fujiwara, Choshu and Dandy to the list of guys who blew Windham away. But I voted Barry higher than Morton or Eaton because he demonstrated more range. Do I think Morton or Eaton could have produced great singles runs? Absolutely. Did they actually do it? Not really. Whereas Barry's tag resume is right up there with the best. And we'll just have to disagree about Windham not looking like an all-time great during his peak runs.

It's not outrage. But how many years was Austin great in the ring? Give him mid-1996 until the Owen injury and 2001. Then give him points for being good to very good for three years in WCW and a few more for inhabiting a larger than life character during the Attitude era. That's it. And even his peak years weren't among the best peak years anybody ever had. Look, I like Austin a lot. As a character, he popped off the screen more than almost anyone in history. He absolutely needs to be on the list. But it's a thin resume in the company he's keeping. Love Austin. But if we're giving him '96 until '01, you then also have a couple monstrous stretches where he wasn't working at all -- late '97 and a full year from 99-00. I think you misunderstood me. I said I'd give him the year from mid-1996 until mid-1997 and then 2001. I agree completely about the substantial gaps in his peak.

Aw, that's fucking cool. Where's it from?

It's not outrage. But how many years was Austin great in the ring? Give him mid-1996 until the Owen injury and 2001. Then give him points for being good to very good for three years in WCW and a few more for inhabiting a larger than life character during the Attitude era. That's it. And even his peak years weren't among the best peak years anybody ever had. Look, I like Austin a lot. As a character, he popped off the screen more than almost anyone in history. He absolutely needs to be on the list. But it's a thin resume in the company he's keeping.

I agree with everything said here. See, I think the underachiever line has been stuck to Windham for so long that some people actually underrate his output. We have him looking great on tape as early as 1983. He has the outstanding 1986-88 peak and then another run nearly as good from 1990-93. And within those peaks, he shined in nearly every role you could imagine him occupying other than promotional ace. Honestly, can Bret or Savage better that? Can Austin?

Hash basically held his spot from '06, same as Taue. There was a big point jump from Windham at 25 to Austin and Hash at 24 and 23. So if you're looking at it in terms of tiers, that was a dividing line. It's sort of amazing that 32 hardcore wrestling fans couldn't find a place for Shinya Hashimoto, but so it goes.

Another case where one guy was perceived as elite by more voters but the other beat him by appearing on way more ballots. I voted Buddy higher but don't see a huge gap between the two. Both incredibly adaptable workers with shortish peaks. I do think Buddy was more consistent and creative within his peak. But the bottom line is a lot of people still haven't dived deep on Portland.

I agree Windham's output is on the weak side at this level, but I'd put him above Austin, Savage and possibly Bret on that front.

Yeah but Dustin's initial run of quality work was much shorter than Barry's, so Dustin needed his later renaissance just to reach relatively equal footing. As Dylan and Kris noted, Dustin and Barry share a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as candidates. I voted Barry higher because his physical gifts made him so fun to watch and because he delivered in the kinds of longer main events Dustin never really wrestled. Love them both though.

Maybe but it's not like we're lacking big-match performances from Akiyama. He still had a ton. He's probably hurt more by the fact 2000s puro--his peak era--is a relative blind spot for many voters. I think that's where GOTNW's frustration comes in, and I get that.

Going by your main criteria, I'd have Akiyama higher as well--very good to great for longer and in more roles, with greater consistency overall. I guess for me, his higher end performances have never quite connected at the level of Taue's best. I find the Taue-Kawada dynamic pretty remarkable. They went from a convincing blood feud to forming one of the great partnerships in wrestling, built on a shared belief in professional loyalty. And they paid that off with the greatest in-ring performances I've ever seen. For all his logical advantages, Akiyama has never done anything that meant as much to me as that. Taue did plenty of other great stuff besides, but I can't deny that my preference for him is ultimately an emotional one.

Austin is the worst guy still hanging around and has been for awhile. But I imagine he appeared on the vast majority of ballots in addition to being a strong emotional choice for some. He's another one with 1/3 the quality years of Akiyama, if he's lucky.