Herodes

It's easier for the orthodox narrative to try and position Lucha as a homogenous entity that is "niche"; it's easier to dismiss a niche.

No Parv, you tried to go down the anti-intellectual "SJW" right-wing label route. But what should one expect from approaching a thread you've described as "utter wank". I think it's fair to say that wrestling discussion on the internet peaked relatively early in the late 90s as DVDVR grew in prominence and the focus was on discovery and expanding horizons, unearthing new material and revisiting old classics. It devolved pretty quickly and discussion became primarily about fans, specifically questioning motives and decrying others as posers whenever there is deviation for the Flair/Jumbo orthodoxy. Any real interesting discussion has struggled to overcome the fan-obsession hurdle.

It doesn't matter. Leave capacity and attendance to the promoters.

Wow he did the bill Dundee and Tojo thing, first mentioned in 2002

stro talking about group think and Jerry Lawler may be the worst overall contributions to this thread

Yes El-P, as many sought to evolve their fandom in the 90s, how exotic to see this advanced, post-absurd presentation of wrestling from the land that gifted us Nintendo and Sega, Akira and Fist of the North Star.

I think insecurity and wrestling fandom go hand in hand, when one is invested heavily in a hobby and is mocked because all others see is fake fighting with Mounties, Vikings and clowns. Deny if you will but hypermasculinity and insecurity are key. One could also legitimately mention homo-eroticism and oriental fetishism but not sure if we are ready to go down those (legitimate) paths

I think ultimately as we were younger fans of mainstream US wrestling, mockery by family, peers etc was an inevitable part of the fandom. It can be enuinely embarrassing to be known as a wrestling fan. As we seek to expand horizons, traditional Japanese wrestling allows fans to validate their fandom of their hobby which is routinely ridiculed, presenting a hypermasculine, "real" form of wrestling without many of the infantile pantomime of wwf or wcw that causes much of the mockery. Lucha won't offer that validation to the fan who finally discovers wrestling that is "pure" and averse from the tropes that make being a wrestling fan such an easy target (for the record, personally I think New Japan and the likes of Tanahashi are genuinely awful but that is neither here nor there)

Let's revert to Dylan's questions: Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without f condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

Not the community, just you

"Common sense"? According to who? You're the champion of bland, middle of the road thought, do you apply the same "common sense" approach to music, literature and film?

No clearly not crap at all, as pointed out by others. You've come across badly not just during his thread but during the GWE process perhaps starting with your Rude/Dibiase debacle and subsequent manipulation of what should be a landmark, once every ten year ranking of wrestlers into an agenda against the "wrong" type of fan which ended the whole process on a sour note.

It's entirely relevant. You point out in THIS THREAD about the thin-skinned nature of Lucha fans, I point out demonstrable proof of the hypocrisy of your statement given your thin-skinned behavior during and after GWE when you explicitly claim that people who prefer Lawler to Flair or Taue to Kobashi are being intentionally contrarian and thus undermining people who don't conform to your bland convention and orthodoxy by assigning ulterior motives, and come across as very fragile when fans aren't being "correct". I know you want to get away from GWE but it's defined you and when you make ridiculous posts on this thread you can't claim GWE immunity.

Exactly, it's not deflecting, it's pointing out hypocrisy entirely based on statements you have made in this thread, hence entirely relevant.

Parv wrote his essay decrying the "wrong" type of fan, rallying against those who didn't follow his view of convention and claiming that anyone who didn't follow his view was intentionally trying to make a statement. It came across as incredibly whiny and bitter, not to mention arrogant. Lest we forget that in addition to the infamous "post script" there was also the Rude v Dibiase tantrum and the Flair podcasts. I bring this up in direct response to the claim about Lucha fans being thin-skinned, by the man who made GWE about the right vs wrong type of fans

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

Well as it relates to the oft-ridiculed cultural reading of the import and development of Japanese wrestling post Hiroshima and Nagasaki, shoot style was the first real assertion of a native wrestling style rooted in Japanese martial arts traditions explicitly seeking to disassociate itself from the dominant American influence. But it's appeal to western fans is significantly more limited than "traditional" Puro which presents a hypermasculine version of the otherwise conventional and familiar tropes.

Parv, your post script to the GWE was an angry rant against the "wrong" type of fans who didn't follow the so called conventional wisdom that you defend so religiously. Someone who preferred Lawler to Flair didn't do so for genuine reasons, they were being "contrarian", wanting to right a wrong or make a point, "hipsters" who want to "challenge paradigms" etc. there's a sense of fragility when your orthodoxy is challenged, and a casting of suspicion as you position yourself as basing your list on the "right" reasons and thereby undermining the valid opinions of others. I don't want to harp on this but do so since you brought it up, after two years of debate and discussion, the epilogue was questioning motivations of fans which will of course foster negativity.

It's hardly rubbish though Parv, your multi-part series on Flair serves as testament to that. I believe Lucha has become your white whale, and you can't disregard it in the same way you can disregard something like French wrestling for example which doesn't inform the overall narrative of wrestling fandom.

If I may, I believe that the aspiring wrestling polymath seeks to discover and master knowledge of a broad range of wrestling past and present, yet for valid reasons of personal taste wrestling from Mexico remains the elusive white whale despite repeated attempts at getting to grips with it. As one of the three global superpowers of wrestling, it's harder to disregard than a particular promotion or a territory like Puerto Rico; it's effectively an admission of defeat (as perceived by our polymath) and rather than chalk this up to personal taste or inability to grasp more unfamiliar tropes and more independent narrative relative to the US/Japan structure, then motives of those who are fans are questioned since the conclusion must be that it is "hipster posturing" rather than genuinely held opinions. The aspiring polymath had therefore justified their views by creating a binary set of correct and incorrect opinions. However our polymath does take this as a personal failure on their part which increases their animosity; despite wanting to portray Mexican wrestling as a niche, its native appeal to the average Mexican fan means that this is not an obscure, impenetrable text with limited appeal to a select few, and the polymath blames themselves and lashes out in the knowledge that Lucha is not in act wrestlings Finnegans Wake explicitly designed to lack accessibility but a popular text that they are unable to appreciate. It's easy to sideline Finnegans Wake in the literary canon, less so Borges.

It's not hard to believe, you've shown it repeatedly here and elsewhere in your arrogant dismissal of opinions that challenge your own perceived orthodoxy. Question - if someone believes Taue is a better worker than Kobashi for example, do you believe that is an incorrect opinion and do you question the motives of anyone who holds that position?

Part of that is not questioning people's motives for enjoying something e.g. "Trendy" You're far orthodox in your opinions than you'd care to admit, not just highlighted here but during and after GWE.

Learn to challenge the orthodoxy old chap

"Trendy" as defined by who? Talking about wrestling fan coolness is the worst, but these debates always trend towards this end-point. For example you take people preferring taue to kobashi as a real personal slight, hence the passive aggressive labels. Lest we forget your post-GWE post script and annoyance that people weren't doing things "correctly". Be honest about what you're trying to say, was your music list honestly held or "trendy" because your implication ultimately boils down to wanting to control what's the right (ie your) opinion, something you used to sour the GWE process.

Ultimately PWO is no different to any wrestling discussion, when what's "cool" to like is being defined (by the special ones in the know) the expectation is that we need to conform to the established opinions (doesn't apply when making music lists)