Herodes

Just out of interest and with the benefit of hindsight, how do you think Goldberg should have lost for the first time? Obviously he would have had to lose some time but his aura and charisma was so linked in to his streak and 'invincibility' so it seems like a real booking dilemma. Since his first loss was a delicate situation it would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on how it could have been done (and it would have to be done at some point) without damaging the character.

Also in 1989 Brian Pillman had Rocket by Def Leppard as his theme tune and they used Winner Takes it All by Sammy Hagar (from the Over the Top soundtrack) to hype Flair/Steamboat. Good times.

There is some of that I agree with with regards to the blandness and sameness of a lot of the wrestlers, especially the in the lower and mid card, but I think Cena is a phenomenal babyface and Batista has been such a great heel recently - most guys will never be able to have that much charisma. As for the quality of WMs now vs then, I disagree. I generally prefer older wrestling but the cards are so much better structured now. Looking at the WMs between 88 and 93: First WM I ever saw 'live' was WM 6, and I had fondly remembered it for the epic main event and the cool arena but if you watch it again it was pretty horrible. Aside from the main event there were 13 matches, most of which were pointless with no real story, only one of which went over 10 mins (the very disappointing Jake v Dibiase match), 7 of which went under 5 mins: 1 Rick Martel defeated Koko B. Ware 03:51 2 Demolition (Ax and Smash) defeated The Colossal Connection (André the Giant and Haku) © (with Bobby Heenan) 09:30 3 Earthquake (with Jimmy Hart) defeated Hercules 04:52 4 Brutus Beefcake defeated Mr. Perfect (with The Genius) 07:48 5 Roddy Piper and Bad News Brown fought to a double countout. 06:48 6 The Hart Foundation (Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart) defeated The Bolsheviks (Nikolai Volkoff and Boris Zhukov). 00:19 7 The Barbarian (with Bobby Heenan) defeated Tito Santana 04:33 8 Dusty Rhodes and Sapphire (with Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage and Sensational Queen Sherri 07:52 9 The Orient Express (Sato and Tanaka) (with Mr. Fuji) defeated The Rockers (Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty) by countout 07:38 10 Jim Duggan defeated Dino Bravo (with Jimmy Hart and Earthquake) 4:15 11 Ted DiBiase © (with Virgil) defeated Jake Roberts by countout 11:50 12 The Big Boss Man defeated Akeem (with Slick) 01:49 13 Rick Rude (with Bobby Heenan) defeated Jimmy Snuka 03:59 14 The Ultimate Warrior (Intercontinental Champion) defeated Hulk Hogan (WWF Champion) 22:51 WM 4 had 16 matches, 13 of which went under 10 mins and the atmosphere in Trump Plaza was horrible. WM 5 had 14 matches in the same arena with the horrible atmosphere with 12 matches under 10 mins, even thought the build to the main event was amazingly built up. WM 7 had 14 matches, again 9 went under 10 mins but it was saved by the amazing Savage/Warrior match. I liked WM 8, 2 very good matches and less filler, but WM 9 was shiity. I guess what I'm trying to say is that as far was structuring a show goes and cutting out pointless filler and short, nothing matches and building up the featured matches, WMs now are far better than what they were back then.

Putting aside nostalgia, Wrestlemanias in recent years are so much better than they used to be in the 80s and 90s. So many of the older WMs were long, bloated, boring cards full of short, meaningless matches, whereas now the cards tend to be a lot tighter and each match has a reason for happening, and the midcarders are kept occupied in the MITB match or a pre-show battle royal. The incredible production and large arenas, the way it's built up and the various events surrounding the show like the HOF give it much more of a 'big event' feel than in the past, even with all the other PPVs we have now. Some of the more fondly remembered older ones were made memorable as a result of a big main event but they'd usually have something like 13 other matches as well, most of which were pointless.

Shawn/Taker and Cena/Batista were exactly what I expected - not much of a 'story' but following that 'Wrestlemania Epic' template - tease finisher, escape, finisher, nearfall, finisher, reversal, finisher etc with characters who are really over. And I like that kind of match when it's done on the big stage by guys like this who can do it really well, so I enjoyed those 2 matches. Didn't care much for Jericho/Edge, I'm just not a fan of either of them at all. Rey/Punk was really disappointing, didn't seem to go much more than 5 minutes, they had a better match on Smackdown not long ago. Rey is always a disappointment at Wrestlemania, not necessarily his own fault. HHH was just an OKish average but dull RAW main event, totally forgettable. MITB did nothing for me, seen it all before, and I've forgotten anything about the three way and the tag title match. Bret/Vince was just brutally bad. Horrible booking where a 60+ year old is getting endlessly beaten by a large gang of supposed babyfaces which made Vince seem like the sympathetic character. Sadly but predictably Bret looked awful, although maybe this match was fitting as the end of one of the worst and most ill-advised comebacks ever. Everything about this was awful. But overall, I really enjoyed it, like I do most Wrestlemanias. I love the huge arenas, the big spectacle, the amazing production and the final 2 matches, so thumbs up.

Goldberg was awesome and the jobber squashes were great. He had a great aura and the matches where he beat Raven for the US title and Hogan for the title were amazing spectacles. He definitely belongs in the WWE Hall of Fame because at one point he was a massive star, especially given that the HOF currently has people like Ivan Putski, Johnny Rodz, Wendi Richter and Bob Eucker....and technically Mike and Chris Von Erich. Just like any card, the WWE HOF needs a relatively recent main-eventer for it's HOF every year as the draw and there aren't too many left...Goldberg definitely fits the bill. Count me in as someone who is nostalgic for Goldberg too. Give me the music, the smoke entrance, the spear and the jackhammer and a guy with Goldberg's charisma and presence, and it's a million times more entertaining than most of wrestling now.

It seems TNA exists simply as a tax write-off for Panda Energy, and also has the benefit of keeping the CEO's daughter distracted. So rather than judging it as if it is intended to be a profitable company, how does it hold up if we judge it as a book-keeping item?

I've finally watched disc 7 which followed a really slow period that I struggled to get through after Choshu and the UWF guys had left, and what remained wasn't very interesting. But it ended with a great Fujiwara/Maeda match that served as a tease of the UWF v NJPW to come which will motivate me to pick up my viewing. Overall it's been a very good set so far with some real highs and lows. Really liked the Fujinami opening section (especially the matches against Tony Rocco, Kengo Kimura, Dick Murdoch and Teranishi), hated the Tiger Mask matches which I thought were the shits aside from the Steve Wright match, but once that was out of the way (finally!) we get to the Choshu section which was really great stuff, particularly the series with Fujinami and the amazing gauntlet match. After that the set went really downhill with the highlight being the Inoki/Fujinami v Murdoch/Adonis match, although I felt some of the other North South matches dragged a bit, and there was a lot of other filler. Other highlights so far are the incredible Andre matches and Hogan/Inoki, and fun hidden gems like Lane/Takano and Don Arakawa (who?). Looking ahead I'm a lot more positive with the UWF feud and Choshu's return to come. For those that have watched the set would you say the second half (86-89) is more top heavy, since it looks that way on paper anyway?

What is wrong with what Mitchell is saying? Don't get me wrong, I couldn't really give a fuck about any of this, but what's the story here? Flair is a fuck up? I just find the interest people are taking in this story a bit creepy.

Just to add when I first got on the net there was a tape site run by John Mcadam who had so many Memphis and other tapes I would have loved to had and he was charging around $25 for a 4 or 6 hour tape and the quality (and service) was the shits compared to the amazing quality we have nowadays...I can't imagine how much wrestling I would be buying nowadays if I was as big a fan as I was then given how cheap it is now and how much is available! Even the thought of these season sets that are around now with complete years worth of TV shows is mindblowing...but again I wonder if even back then I would have the patience to watch it all.

Serious question (coming from someone whose wrestling viewing these days consists of watching RAW and little else) - I know DVDs are dirt cheap and availability of footage is higher than it has ever been, but has anyone really got the time and patience and desire to sit through a 37 disc set let alone a 100 disc set, especially one devoted to a single wrestler? I realise guys like Funk and Santo are awesome but it seems like overkill and I am genuinely curious whether anyone has watched and finished one of these sets. 15 discs of New Japan seems daunting enough and that at least covers a decade's worth of different wrestlers and styles. The height of my fandom was over 10 years ago when a 'best of' was usually an 8 hour comp tape at most and back then I would have dreamed to have this kind of stuff available so cheaply...in theory, but in practise I don't know if I could have sat through that much footage of one wrestler even back when I used to watch a lot of wrestling. (For the record I think the work goodhelmet and co do is awesome especially for the completists and the best of 80s comps are great historical documents and the time and effort put into them must be staggering)

Very tangentially related to the above post but on the topic of pro wrestling creating heels to reflect political 'enemies' at the time, we've all seen various (kayfabed mostly) Russian, Arab, Japanese, Iranian, German, Korean etc heels but I've always wondered whether there were ever any 'Vietnamese' heels during or just after the war. I know there was the Vietcong express in Calgary in the 80s years after the fact but at the time of the war was anyone doing a Vietnam gimmick? Or is there an unwritten rule that if you are defeated or being defeated by the 'enemy' and the war is unpopular then a fictional victory in a wrestling ring isn't appropriate? Unless there is someone obvious I am missing? Just find it interesting that wrestling has always aimed to crudely reflect society in black and white terms, yet Vietnam seems to have been a taboo gimmick despite it's relevance and wrestling's history of foreign heels.

The mention of the Williams/Windham Starrcade match in the 24/7 thread got me thinking... I'm a fan of the face v face match that descends into a heel turn by one of the parties after 'miscommunication' but I'm struggling to think of some good examples. One that comes to mind is the Chris Adams v Terry Taylor match from Mid South, also Misterioso v Volador from '94 in AAA that kickstarted their feud...can anyone think of some other good examples to check out? Also any face v heel matches where the heel sees the light during the match and it becomes face v face? It's not an easy story to tell during the course of a match and the only example I can think of right now is the incredible Misterioso v Volador mask match. For 2 guys I never cared for too much their feud was brilliant storytelling in the best lucha biblical sense - friend turns traitor but finally sees the error of his ways too late...in the second fall of a mask match from which there is no escape...so the sinner makes the ultimate sacrifice to gain his redemption and save his brother. Ofcourse the best performer in the match was Blue Panther as Misterio's second, the devil on his shoulder who is the catalyst for the story. Are there any US equivalents I can look out for?

I can't find any posts by Russo himself but there are a few early mentions of him (shitty RSPW formatting included) From Herb Kunze talking about John Arezzi's Pro Wrestling Spotlight newsletter in Jan 92: From Dave Scherer in Aug 92: Possibly the first online labelling of Vince Russo as an idiot, again from Scherer in Jan 93:

Oh boy..well as long as you keep believeing in your mythical surveys that adhere to your high standards (and whose result you have already determined), I guess that's great for you.

Actually I would say Apatow's name is known because his films have been very popular so just because you found out about his name on a wrestling forum doesn't mean the same applies to the "general population" on whose behalf you are commenting.

For Vince I'm sure the main thing is the satisfaction that despite all the shit these wrestlers talk about him, they always come back eventually, just like Superstar Billy Graham...privately I bet he would be thrilled to have the last holdout Bruno to come crawling back too so he can be smug in the knowledge that he did.

That says more about you if you only heard about these films through visiting wrestling forums...

A large part of his 'hero' status is because he has become a classic Shakespearean tragic figure. His appeal was that we really got to 'know' him as a result of the way he was pushed, the hard-working, honorable everyman champion who wasn't a cartoon; we got to know his parents, his sister, his brothers, his brothers-in-law, his home, and then in that classic literary narrative tradition the very business he loved turned against him, forced him out of his promotion, killed his brother, destroyed his marriage, ended his career prematurely. The reality was not quite as clear cut, as his own book readily admits - The Harts had a completely fucked-up and no way 'normal' family environment that contributed to the drug addicitions, spousal abuse, broken families etc...But looking at the final moments of the Calgary Stampede PPV and the celebrations, and then seeing what became of it all only 3 years later is quite a powerful image for the fans who'll disregard the seedier aspects, and regardless of the cynicism, hypocisy and motivations of his return, it is far outweighed by the empathy for Bret. Ofcourse he is not a real-life 'hero', but it is easy to see why he can be viewed that way by many via the warped perspective of pro wrestling. I'll be watching his return and genuinely hope it goes well for him so he can get some closure.

Maybe he's realised that as far as the casual audience goes (outside of Canada), he is largely a forgotten man, on top of an era that has been disregarded as a low point following the scandals and loss of mainstream popularity after the Hulkamania era and before the Attitude era, an era that was irrelevant as far as the mainstream and pop culture go. The history books skip from Hogan to Austin and The Rock as the big stars which must piss him off given his ego and how important his legacy appears to be to him, as well as the fact that Shawn has come back and become known to this new audience as a "legend" whereas Bret is that guy that got screwed in Montreal many, many years ago by Mr McMahon. I can't blame the guy because it does seem to be important to him so all the best to the man.

Barr would have gone to ECW with Eddy while still working AAA, doubt WCW would have taken him though because of his previous run there and the sexual assault conviction...most likely would have stuck around Mexico even after the economy tanked. Even if he got a WCW gig it's hard to see it amounting too much, he was too small and would have been lumped in with the luchadors jobbing on WCW Saturday Night no doubt. Gilbert had burnt all his bridges, I'm sure he would have gone through a cycle of showing up in USWA or ECW, hanging around a bit and getting fired, repeating the same pattern over various indies in the US, Puerto Rico and Japan. Brody's career may have been similar to Abby in the 90s, maybe All Japan six mans (don't know if his ego would allow him to do that while Hansen and Williams were still on top) or more likely a regular gig as an Ontia foe in FMW alongside indies in the US and Puerto Rico. Adonis before he died was morbidly obese (see his last AWA appearances), I think he was basically finished at that point as far as getting a major gig. Crash Holly would have done little more other than what he was doing, working the indies, maybe another low-level WWE run. Magnum and Pillman are the only ones who would have continued at a top level had injury/death not occurred, but not sure where exactly, would be interesting to hear speculation though...

Unionisation is pointless for the reasons tomk gave. The brand is bigger than any star. 10 guys leave, 10 identical replacements are summoned from the farm in Florida. Maybe in the 80s it would have been more viable when the balance between star and brand was less skewed than it is now and Hogan, Piper, Savage, Andre, Warrior etc were involved, but even that's debatable - aside from Hogan they were all disposable to a degree, and it wouldn't have lasted. The bottom line is that if people really gave a fuck about these things they would have stopped watching after Benoit went psycho but that didn't happen for the most part.

So what I got from smkelly's hilarious rant is that he ballooned in weight which led to derision and *gasp* a loss of wardrobe, and now he's projecting his insecurities and self-loathing on to fatboy wrestlers because he could no longer squeeze into his old pair of jeans.

I think the point is that whether it be in the 'noble' wrestling of All Japan or the 'scummy' indy death match leagues, doing stupid stuff, whether it be headrops, chairshots, reckless bumps, or otherwise killing yourself in some fashion...they are all the same level of stupidity. Despite wrestling fans trying to make distinctions to laughably preserve the honour of their preferred form of wrestling, ultimately Misawa and Benoit were no better than some indy guy throwing himself off a balcony onto a burning table. The workrate heroes of years gone by have nothing to be proud of - Misawa dead in a ring, Benoit's a murderer, Dynamite Kid a destitute amputee, Kobashi a virtual cripple pathetically dragging himself into the ring to stave off the inevitable life in a wheelchair which beckons, Toyota with a broken down body at a young age and so on. But many wrestling fans are able to indignantly decry some stupid stunt at a deathmatch tournament and write RIP messages for Misawa, and then quickly move on to pimping the latest MOTYC from NOAH or Dragon Gate USA that features a ton of reckless and stupid stiffness and bumps. The myth that All Japan or NOAH or AJW or ROH are this magical version of prowres that is an ARTFORM is silly when the bottom line is that for the wrestlers it is no better than the maligned hardcore style and its alleged lack of 'artistic merit'.

Pregnant cows and quotations from Seven...priceless. By which I mean awful. Just for you I hope they book a Vader, Booger and Big Daddy V vs Abdullah the Butcher and The Headhunters match which will be a wonderful backboobie-fest, even if that means you won't be able to jack off to the wrestlers since they don't meet your aesthetic standards.