Herodes

Wrestling fans in general get very annoyed about "unconventional" thought and take personal affront when someone enjoys what they have defined as a "niche", inevitably taking the discussion to a passive aggressive critique of fandom, who is an isnt the right type of fan, who is or isn't a hipster etc. of course when the same people put together a music list for example, they are usually predominantly "niche" or achingly hipster.

Oh man you're talking about wrestling hipsterdom, the inevitable end to any discussion

I guarantee he's seen little to nothing beyond the WWC tag

The level of discussion around "Lucha" will remain unevolved as long as it's being discussed as Lucha, some homogenous, monolithic entity or style and not afforded the acknowledgment of a lack of homogeneity that "Puro" gets. See example of "floaty armdrags" recently which reduces (as examples) La Fiera, El Faraon, Virus and Blue Panther to a single entity. Anything that can be conceded as "good" therefore stands as an exception in relation to the single homogenous mass i.e. I like it therefore it must be an exception that "transcends the style". Once we can get past the broad-based discussion of Lucha and start talking about individual matches, styles, performers or even promotions will the discussion have evolved. I'm sure WCW has a part to play in the perception and stunted growth of Lucha discussion due to their portrayal and setting expectation of "Lucha" as the inconsequential sideshow niche to the real product. From the original cultural point it's easier for a tape trading generation to see Funk and Hansen being Funk and Hansen in Japan as seamlessly co-aligned with the US wrestling which gave birth to it rather than a wrestling culture which has a very different narrative of evolution. Also to this generation Japanese wrestling has a more defined continuation point for sampling relative to Lucha; from Super J Cup move on to the big all Japan matches, Dream slams, nj dome shows etc. Whereas Lucha had when worlds collide as its entry point and no defined route after that tape, and no champion as prominent as Meltzer acting as a guide with instructions on further exploration. Once Art and Eddy get their haircuts, the budding Lucha novice was left stranded as to the next steps. The argument about hegemony is about placing wrestling cultures and their development into their context, similar to looking at how 3 ethnic Koreans had game-changing influence on the direction in Japan and placing that into the wider context - and not stifling discussion with current trends of lazy labels.

In a world of "SJWs" and "cucks" and whatever trending term du jour that is politicized and used to be dismissive, arguments are reduced to "is it racist to like tacos". I was hoping a healthy debate could be had away from the field of angry youtubers rallying against SJWs and the embrace of binary narratives that ultimately result in Trump and Brexit. The point is that one can't look beyond the context of Japanese pro wrestling emerging after World War 2 as a way of a nation trying to reassert its pride and national character. It may lead to discussion beyond "Lucha sucks" as an attempt to understand the mentality of fans drawn to one form which is derivative of US wrestling versus dismissal of styles that contain less familiar tropes and cross-pollination with American wrestling e.g. Lucha, shoot style. Lucha remains a niche amongst smart fans with token bones thrown at it to feign appreciation, perhaps some more granular thought can be given to understand why a generation raised on mainstream Us wrestling isn't able to do easily disregard a wrestling culture.

I'm inclined to dismiss anyone over the age of 12 who uses the term "SJW", a refuge of the lazy and easily influenced. It may be easy to mock amongst the lads on twitter, but the reading of Puro as seen through the viewpoint of the American wrestling tradition should be rather obvious, but perhaps the discussion is a lost cause with someone who unironically labels others as SJWs.

Apparently I've been tainted with the dreaded "SJW" label over on twitter for using long words. Well let's embrace the post-Trump anti-intellectualism and reduce the argument to "Puro sucks" (I'm not up to date on my YouTube videos....is this what the right call "virtue signaling"?)

Reposting something I wrote post-GWE: This leads into the wider question of the influence of American imperialism in the context of GWE and pro wrestling, which is undoubtedly true. I think it's worth exploring. There is the obvious power of influence of US wrestling which most if not all of us grew up on, but the question is then for the subset of fans like us who expanded our horizon beyond the mainstream of what we saw on TV as children, why do so many disproportionately flock to "traditional" Japanese wrestling rather than lucha, or shoot style, or world of sport. All are very much readily available now but we are told the latter styles are niche, difficult to "understand" or "get" and other similar language which reinforces the notion of what is mandatory to consider for GWE and what can be easily dismissed and disposed of outside of some obvious token picks. In many aspects the story of traditional Japanese wrestling is offensive; relatively few years after two nuclear bombs were dropped on the country by the US, the Japanese are willing to passively accept this American import while the horrors of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are so fresh is beyond belief. Beyond some concessions to the host culture to make the style more conservative, it is nevertheless the same fundamental American product forced wholesale upon the same people who were nuked. However, when the American standard is challenged, in the form of shoot style which rooted itself proudly in the native martial arts traditions, western audiences are not ready to accept its legitimacy alongside imported new Japan and all Japan wrestling which is much more aligned to "correct" wrestling. Similarly lucha has always for the most part been completely ignored beyond the surface and to this day we hear the same stock dismissals about "not getting it". The entire wrestling culture of Mexico quickly developed its own traditions and conventions, it's own style of working and even movement, very much tied closely to its own host culture and proudly so, until recent years not conceding to its geographical neighbour and in a defiant manner. So relative to its place in its culture, western influenced fans can so nonchalantly ignore it yet embrace traditional Japanese wrestling which fits much more neatly in the comfort zone. If anything the project has been fascinating and it really is a snapshot of fandom in more ways than one. Primarily it shows how early wrestling criticism is in its evolution, we are now at the point where we can acknowledge token entries like Casas or Dandy based on legitimate championing, by only willing to sample a small set of curated picks while still enforcing the perception of lucha as "the other" but never to the point where it can be thought of on equal terms with the American hegemony. The final list serves as a reminder than in 2016, while "the other" has made in roads, we are still not at the stage where we can truly argue the case for the "niche" as an equal without being dismissed as contrarian. The main point is that the narrative of Japanese wrestling is a direct reaction to America, it's evolution and style is heavily influenced by the west and there was always major western presence throughout its entire history giving it an easy accessibility to the western fan. While more conservative in its nature, it developed in the western tradition. Whereas Mexico, while a geographical neighbor, developed independently and its tropes, characters, rhythms and style consigns it to being "the other" as it explicitly rejected the American influence and became its own entity and mythology. We are still at the stage where the majority struggle to "get it" as seen through the prism of western influence but there is nothing inherently difficult about the style unless we seek to judge it solely on western standards which lead to wholesale dismissals of no psychology, no selling, looks fake etc. But those criticisms carry no weight if the fan refuses to engage with it except by American standards thereby ignoring the context and failing to understand that it has its own cultural identity. We see our first Japanese tapes and see many familiar faces and a familiar style and narrative, whereas we see lucha for the first time and see what appears to be chaos that lacks familiar conventions. The old Mexican lady at arena colisseo "gets it" which means it is valid.

It's a question of influence, origins and development. There's no doubt that there was always heavy Western involvement in Japanese wrestling as compared to Mexico and explicitly were part of the system in a way that wasn't present in Mexico to any significant degree. Americans would constantly tour and easily fit in to Japan which makes it more accessible to western audiences unlike Mexico.

Strongly disagree. The tradition of the mask has nothing to do with cyclone Mackey and I think that's obvious and willfully ignored the sociological/anthropological aspect of lucha as relates to the cultural heritage and Latin notions of pride and machismo, Aztec tradition etc. Lucha is explicitly different and the cultural exchange with the US is insignificant as compared to Japan and again tries to reinforce the hegemony by stating that is is lack of economic incentive with the the US rather the its own strong and independent cultural voice that determined its path. Let's not claim "cyclone Mackey" has any relevance to the discourse. After suffering horrifically at the hands of America, Japan was a cuckolded nation trying to use wrestling as a device to overcome its shame; its story is entirely different from Mexico.

The main point is that the narrative of Japanese wrestling is a direct reaction to America, it's evolution and style is heavily influenced by the west and there was always major western presence throughout its entire history giving it an easy accessibility to the western fan. While more conservative in its nature, it developed in the western tradition. Whereas Mexico, while a geographical neighbor, developed independently and its tropes, characters, rhythms and style consigns it to being "the other" as it explicitly rejected the American influence and became its own entity and mythology. We are still at the stage where the majority struggle to "get it" as seen through the prism of western influence but there is nothing inherently difficult about the style unless we seek to judge it solely on western standards which lead to wholesale dismissals of no psychology, no selling, looks fake etc. But those criticisms carry no weight if the fan refuses to engage with it except by American standards thereby ignoring the context and failing to understand that it has its own cultural identity. We see our first Japanese tapes and see many familiar faces and a familiar style and narrative, whereas we see lucha for the first time and see what appears to be chaos that lacks familiar conventions. The old Mexican lady at arena colisseo "gets it" which means it is valid.

I'm a very infrequent poster but I will say that it doesn't set a good precedent for Parv to write essays from afar and have others publish them for him. This place has always been about engaging with the community, defending opinions and debate, and a willingness to be challenged; you should defend your polemic if you've taken them time to write a long form essay about a 2 year process

I think it's a concept worth exploring. Similar arguments are raised when the traditional white, western canon of literature is challenged by a new voice championing for example previously unknown (to Western readers) African literature; the establishment is willing to indulge discussion of "token" entries as a curiosity, but ultimately will close ranks if it poses any threat to the canon of Western literature. Any legitimate threat or opposing voice will be dismissed as a contrarian opinion and the fundamental status quo isn't allowed to be challenged beyond an orientalist rejection of the attempt to change the canon as a "niche" voice and any proponents as fetshistic (it's no surprise for example to learn that Parv is a Shakespeare scholar and unwilling to give much thought to "contrarian/niche" other than token picks based on a cherry-picked sampling, however enduring the consensus remains unchallenged). I have been part of literary debates where the Shahnameh (the great classical work of Persian literature) has been presented by some as not only deserving to be in the canon but also not to be perceived as a fetishistic pick but any serious challenge was quickly shut down as soon as the notion of it being considered alongside the great works of western literature - very much in the same manner Parv has done (in a passive aggressive manner) by ultimately disregarding opinions that challenge the consensus. This leads into the wider question of the influence of American imperialism in the context of GWE and pro wrestling, which is undoubtedly true. I think it's worth exploring. There is the obvious power of influence of US wrestling which most if not all of us grew up on, but the question is then for the subset of fans like us who expanded our horizon beyond the mainstream of what we saw on TV as children, why do so many disproportionately flock to "traditional" Japanese wrestling rather than lucha, or shoot style, or world of sport. All are very much readily available now but we are told the latter styles are niche, difficult to "understand" or "get" and other similar language which reinforces the notion of what is mandatory to consider for GWE and what can be easily dismissed and disposed of outside of some obvious token picks. In many aspects the story of traditional Japanese wrestling is offensive; relatively few years after two nuclear bombs were dropped on the country by the US, the Japanese are willing to passively accept this American import while the horrors of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are so fresh is beyond belief. Beyond some concessions to the host culture to make the style more conservative, it is nevertheless the same fundamental American product forced wholesale upon the same people who were nuked. However, when the American standard is challenged, in the form of shoot style which rooted itself proudly in the native martial arts traditions, western audiences are not ready to accept its legitimacy alongside imported new Japan and all Japan wrestling which is much more aligned to "correct" wrestling. Similarly lucha has always for the most part been completely ignored beyond the surface and to this day we hear the same stick dismissals about "not getting it". The entire wrestling culture of Mexico quickly developed its own traditions and conventions, it's own style of working and even movement, very much tied closely to its own host culture and proudly so, until recent years not conceding to its geographical neighbour and in a defiant manner. So relative to its place in its culture, western influenced fans can so nonchalantly ignore it yet embrace traditional Japanese wrestling which fits much more neatly in the comfort zone. If anything the project has been fascinating and it really is a snapshot of fandom in more ways than one. Primarily it shows how early wrestling criticism is in its evolution, we are now at the point where we can acknowledge token entries like Casas or Dandy based on legitimate championing, by only willing to sample a small set of curated picks while still enforcing the perception of lucha as "the other" but never to the point where it can be thought of on equal terms with the American hegemony. The final list, emphasized by Parvs essay, serves as a reminder than in 2016, while "the other" has made in roads, we are still not at the stage where we can truly argue the case for the "niche" as an equal without being dismissed as contrarian.

I think we should look at kayfabe as an evolving concept that is constantly redefined based on the era and/or the age and 'enlightnment' of the fan and the relationship with kayfabe. Otherwise we are stuck with looking at it as a static concept and will get sources such as 'there were articles in the 1800s saying wrestling was not real hence kayfabe is bullshit'. If we broadly define kayfabe as 'emotional engagement' and break down fans/kayfabe into a few categories (note - not intended to be comprehensive): 1. Those to whom kayfabe means knowing wrestling isn't real - basically all non-fans who think wrestling is bullshit and any kids whose entire enjoyment is based on thinking it's real and finding out it isn't who stop being fans as a result of this revelation. Kayfabe = real or not real 2. Fans who think/thought it was real mockingly derided as 'rubes' - a minority albeit previously a significant one in the territory era, now limited to kids. Kayfabe = real or not real, although a large number of the not reals could become [3] 3. Fans who 'knew' yet were totally willing to invest emotionally in the fictional narrative and characters based on the presentation and consistency (ie internal logic) and the promotions devotion to the illusion - the significant majority of fans in the territory era who screamed when Ricky Morton sold, were angered at the foreign menace and scared by the monsters. Legitimate emotion directly tied to the narrative even if they knew it wasnt real. Kayfabe = directly tied to presentation, now a minority ('marks') since the promotions no longer maintain the illusion and there is complete openess 4. Fans who know its not real but whose emotional investment is tied not to the fictional narrative but to the (perceived) real narrative which can often be integrated into the fiction e.g. emotional investment based on pushes, booking decisions, indy darlings suppressed by the establishment eg Daniel Bryan's rise and fall, opposition to Roman Reigns etc Kayfabe = tied to 'reality', previously 'hardcores' but now large and growing majority of fans Rather than the debate getting stuck on [1] and [2] - the binary real vs fake - it may be more interesting to focus on the evolution of kayfabe from [3] to [4] and how the WWE has adapted to the 'new' kayfabe for ultimately the same purpose it has always existed - emotional investment e.g. framing the narratives around who SHOULD be pushed vs who IS pushed (Bryan, Cesaro, Ziggler, Punk et al vs. Cena, Reigns, HHH etc), bringing the indy darlings and promotion in-house (NXT) and now the heel heat and anger is Reigns winning the rumble rather than Russians burying Bill Watts under the flag but all with the same aim of the promotion maipulating the fans who think they are too smart to be manipulated. Summary - kayfabe didn't die, it adapted and evolved. Once WWE came up to speed they have embraced it and know they have a loyal and captive audience who may threaten to #CancelWWENetwork but will still watch Wrestlemania and are too inside to ever leave because if Daniel Bryan didnt make it, well there's always Sami Zayn...

Those Ian Rotten battlarts matches in front of 20 meth addicts in an Indiana warehouse were the peak of 2000s Indy wrestling eg vs Tarek the great, Chris hero. Those, as well as New Jack vs Gypsy Joe captured what Indy wrestling should be all about.

Dedication and consistency in the presentation of the narrative and characters. It's not about thinking it's real, it's about never confirming that it isn't real. Kayfabe is being in awe of seeing colour pics in the mags of Abdullah the Butcher, the madman from the Sudan, carving up some worthless victim in a dirty ring in Bayamon as armed riot police hold back the mob. Death of Kayfabe is Larry from Ontario retweeting followers who are praising the great blade job.

Others can point to more specific matches from 92 and 93, but basically any and all inter promotional matches from the WAR vs New Japan feud. Tenryu as the supreme mafia boss rounding up his crew of washed up yakuza low lifes to kick the shit out of the rich kids in new japan.

Every time he made tape he was fantastic in trios, and he has the epic match with El Dandy. I wish there was more footage...

I loved his comeback run in 1994 and the heel turn and feud with Lawler, in addition to his 80s run. He's a contender for the list, great brawler, fantastic promo and far more entertaining than other nominees.

I'm all for jokes at the expense of TNA but weren't we all laughing when they were kicked off Spike and had to go to a shitty channel that no one watches, so isn't this a case of ROH now getting a deal with the same shitty channel that no one watches? And when TNA gets inevitably cancelled, ROH will be show on a shitty channel that no one watches.

I would love to see more footage from places around the globe where we have little to no footage at all but did have televised wrestling e.g. Titanes en el ring from Argentina where we at least have some footage, but there were multiple other South American versions such as Titanes del ring from chile, Brazil, Peru and lucha from Guatemala. Also other countries which had wrestling tv such as Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Spain, France, India etc. Similar to the recent batch of footage that emerged from France, we have barely scratched the surface of our understanding of wrestling globally.

At best wrestling can reflect society and the prevailing cultural attitudes if the time via a medium of very basic narratives lacking subtlety. It may be cliched to say, but no matter how glitzy it becomes it's still working class theatre that uses exaggeration and stereotypes to tell their stories. You can't criticise what it has always been at it's core because that's the whole point of wrestling and (very) simply reflects society. Wrestling has no role to "educate" and should never aspire to pretences otherwise, it is wonderfully low brow and we should celebrate every evil Turk, Arab, Russian, Japanese from the 1800s until today because that's it's way of telling Americas story. It taps into fears of America losing it's dominant place in the world and exposing the myth of the dream which is symbolised by the evil "other". Wrestling has no duty to present the reality, only to go along with the mythology (hence no major Vietnamese heels)

Just to go back to an earlier point where Anarchist says the biggest boom period of the attitude era was when wrestling television was it's most volatile and unpredictable; that's a complete falsehood. Part of the reason it was so over (until it became stale) was the predictability. Chanting along to the catchphrases of The Rock, New Age Outlaws, Godfather etc, Stone Cold Stunners, Dudleyz putting people through tables, cat fights etc. It was the most predictable and the fans loved to go and knew exactly what to expect and chant along until it went on too long and everyone got bored. Fans watched and went to shows expecting and demanding the exact same thing week in and week out. Another reason for the popularity was capturing the late 90s zeitgeist of Springer, South Park, Jackass etc. We are now living in the most xenophobic, jingoistic era since the 80s with more hatred of foreigners and mainstream racism than at any point in recent memory. So in fact Rusev is a perfect product of the times, albeit more sanatised since WWE is too scared to present the real perceived boogeyman of our age (evil Muslim terrorist republican nightmare) but Russia presents a safer whiter representation of the current jingoistic/racist time we live in (and Iraq imagery is too fresh and raw to exploit fully especially after the lessons of Slaughter, Russia is a more distant and safer substitute) So basically predictability and cultural relevance have been the keys to all their successful periods, and a healthy dose of geopolitical instability and ideological tensions always helps. WWE has got this one right.

It's been many years since I watched lucha regularly, but Perro circa 2004 to 2006 was another level of charisma and magnetism. Here's a link of his match on WWF Superstars in 1997 at 17 years old with JR and Cornette on commentary:

Basically you need Jeff G Bailey promos if nothing else