smkelly

Probably Al Snow and Devon Storm vs. Sabu in '94-95 NWA. When I saw these matches for the first time, I hadn't really seen all that much of Al, and what I'd seen of Devon was his WCW run as Crowbar. So expectations were relatively low going in.

Not always the best measuring stick to use though for validation. I've always liked Hogan, in one way or another, and I don't buy into the thing that he couldn't work. There is evidence to the contrary of that notion. It is common sense that shows that Hogan only 'worked' when he chose to. He worked hard against Stan in Japan, against Savage and Warrior in WM5 & 6, and the next match I remember him working hard in was against Flair in the retirement cage match. There might be more, but I can't recall any. He was probably the most business efficient super-babyface professional wrestling has ever known. He was effective in the entertainment aspect of professional wrestling though, not the 'working' aspect of it because a Good Hogan match still had Hulk Hogan in it. It is a worthy point to make that the fanbase Hogan had rode on through the eighties turned on him in the nineties.

As I'm editing in thoughts for my top ten list for the nineties, I'm noticing that the usual suspects are popping up. I will definitely finish it, but I'm thinking the consensus here will be within tolerance. Hence, my curiosity to expand this unto a different decade - 2000-2010. I was contemplating Japan in the nineties, but I think that'd be too easy, and I haven't really followed puro since the split of All Japan, and the eighties are covered by DVDVR. So from January 1st, 2000 to December 31st, 2009, who are the best US workers?

I don't count promos as a part of "working" in the general sense and likely never will. In ring I'm no sure how much of 90's Rock had of note. 99 no one in the WWF had a good year. 96 he debuted late and was given the lame babyface act. 98 would have been his best in ring year and it doesn't compare favorably to other guys. I could see him on my top 100, but he's not a top ten contender. Maybe not a consensus pick, but The Rock had the I Quit match with Mankind in January. Outside of that, I wouldn't call anything The Rock did in-ring wise pre-2000 anything in the same ballpark of his competitors' matches. DDP's allure is somewhat surprising to me. While not a top ten, or probably twenty worker, he did have some stellar WCW title matches against Sting on Nitro in March '98 and then April '99, the Goldberg match, tags against Benoit/Malenko/Saturn, singles against Benoit, and his falls count anywhere against Macho - to name what I can remember.

1. Bret Hart. Had WWF and US Match of the Decade Candidates against Bulldog and then Owen at SummerSlam. Then once more against Austin at WM13. His match against Piper at WM8, his WM10 against Owen, King of the Ring '93 against Hennig, THE Montreal Match, and SurSer '96 against Austin are strong matches that are likely to be at or above MOTYC status - and would make the Best of Year comp. Though not as fluid or organic in movement as Volk Han, Bret looked like he knew exactly what he was doing in there. I hardly ever noticed many mistakes being made solely by Hart. (I think the way his character was molded to match the wrestler illustrates his strength of wrestling over that of showmanship a la Hogan. Vince knew he could make money off Bret). The way Bret wrestled, at his peak, to me, is comparable to watching Michael Jordan play defense in Game 7 of the NBA Finals. And he would occasionally bust out some different moves and looked like a natural doing them. Because even when he did get hurt, in general even, I can't recall a time he ever had to have a match ended because of injury in the nineties. He went on the DL, but not until the match was over. I could be wrong, but barring a glaring omission, I can't think of one. Even then, he hardly missed any amount of significant time because of injuries. Unless my brain doesn't work right, that equation in the wrestling world would be the definition of a 'good worker'. He was able to wrestle at a very intense looking wrestling style for pretty much the entire decade. His chest first bump into the corner always looked like, "Oh shit," would be coming out of my mouth if I had ran into it. There's a reason why the moniker "excellence of execution" exists and is not hyperbolish. He crafted some epics in that ring. Though some consider him boring, I find his particular brand of methodical movements/offense/defense appealing. But I can enjoy highspot workers because instead of being a slow-80s style grappling contest, its Rey versus Psic in ECW - a 'highspot match' that works. But the thing is that Bret was able to adapt to different styles of matches. Sure, he was no Terry Funk or Sabu, but Bret was more than capable as a brawler. His through-the-crowd-brawls with both Austin and Michaels were some of the best I'd ever seen, and looked better than most of the more esteemed ECW crowd-brawls, which I am a fan of. And needless to say, I have been a fan of 'longer' matches for quite some time now. No one in my mind defines the very "Best US Wrestler of the '90s" than Bret Hart. --- I can't figure out #2 yet. --- Eddy Guerrero. Had ECW and WCW and US Match of the Decade Candidates against Malenko in ECW and Misterio Jr in WCW. Had a slew of outstanding matches during what time he spent in ECW and WCW. And if the masks versus hairs match is in the equation, it only bolsters Eddy case for clearly being one of the decades finest. To me, Eddy/Dean was the nineties equivalent of Flair/Steamboat and Savage/Steamboat. They met in WCW, though not every encounter was the same ECW goodness, which, I attribute more to the ineptness of WCW booking ideologies, they, nevertheless, were able to have some really strong matches against one another - namely - the US title match in March '97. Chris Benoit. More known for his New Japan work in the nineties than his stateside stuff, but, there are plenty of good examples of Benoit's excellence no matter what continent he worked on. His brawls with Kevin Sullivan were some of the hardest exchanges either man had ever had in a ring. His Owen Tribute match is a WCW and US Match of the Decade Candidate. He has the matches against Booker T. Matches against Finlay. His debut matches against Eddy. His Road Wild '96 show-stealing match against Malenko - and they have an excellent match on Nitro ('99 IIRC). He was the anchor of the WCW tag division in early/mid '99, of which, the pimped April PPV match is a WCW and US Match of the Decade Candidate. Benoit was enjoyable to watch when he was doing NWA Indy bookings. Rey Misterio Jr. Has a ton of great performances. His matches against Psicosis in ECW represent my favorite moments of lucha, and is a ECW MOTDC. His mask vs. title match against Guerrero is a WCW and US Match of the Decade Candidate. His matches against Psicosis in WCW, namely, July '96, is one of the better American lucha themed matches of the nineties. His matches against Juventud Guerrera in ECW are excellent matches. Rey was involved in several cruiserweight title matches, of which, many are good-great. Plus he was a part of the WCW tag division in early/mid '99. Mick Foley. Has a resume of career shortening matches that spans the decade. He was the best brawler for a long time. Has actually been involved in a lot of heavily pimped matches. His feud with Eddie Gilbert in '90-91 are among some of the best hardcore related matches the US saw in the decade. His feud with Vader has some established good-great matches. His two hardcore tag matches in WCW. His brawls and hardcore matches against Sting and Rhodes are good matches. His stuff with Sabu in ECW and small US Indie companies. Then he goes to the WWF and has some of the most brutal matches in WWF history - the IYH '96 match against Michaels, the Hell in a Cell against 'Taker, and the I Quit match against The Rock. It really is quite surprising that Foley didn't spend more time on the DL. He was no glass man. Sabu. He was no glass man either. He was opposite Funk in my ECW MOTD. His NWA Indy bookings provide some stellar, albeit, largely untalked about greatness, namely, against the likes of Funk, Foley, Benoit, Al Snow, and Devon Storm. Some of the stuff he did in ECW stands the test of time, some don't though. But I like his Stairway to Hell match against Sandman. His stretcher match against RVD was good. I like the one-hour three-way. Had random great matches, namely, against Scorpio in Feb '96.

I was disappointed by the Hart/Misawa match. Probably the best example of a match looking good on paper that turned out to be anything but what it should have been.

That is a good point. However, simply because new footage is being found and unearthed all the time, it does allow for newer things to become wide-spread and popular amongst certain groups. Nevertheless, it is hard to imagine that a newly found match would/could replace some of the big time US matches that have been talked about since their broadcast and/or release. Kind of like its hard for me to imagine an All Japan match being unearthed and being better than 6/3/94, 1/20/97, or the 6/9/95 and 12/6/96 tags. It is possible, but unlikely. I still say that the bigger point is that tastes change.

I don't understand. We must have different definitions of 'worker', as I place the in-ring work above everything else simply because if we put acting ability/promos/angles/etc into play, Hogan would make the top ten for the US in the nineties. It would become 'best entertainer' instead of 'best worker'. I liked Eddy's matches against Malenko in ECW, and he had plenty of good/great matches in WCW beside the mask vs. title match. Thinking about it, Eddy would probably end up in my top ten after considering some of the performances he had, namely, the first and last ECW matches against Malenko, the title versus mask match, the US title match against Malenko in March '97, and probably a handful/dozen performances I am forgetting. But Eddy largely falls into the WCW trap/void/wrestling purgatory, as do guys like Regal & Finlay.

That is a good point. However, simply because new footage is being found and unearthed all the time, it does allow for newer things to become wide-spread and popular amongst certain groups. Nevertheless, it is hard to imagine that a newly found match would/could replace some of the big time US matches that have been talked about since their broadcast and/or release. Kind of like its hard for me to imagine an All Japan match being unearthed and being better than 6/3/94, 1/20/97, or the 6/9/95 and 12/6/96 tags. It is possible, but unlikely.

I was actually going to fast reply that same train of thought after my last post. Bret Hart is obviously my #1. Unlike Japan in the nineties though, it's harder to fill out the #2-10 spots, let alone, think of #'s 11 through say 100. Thinking about '90s Japan produces (immediately): Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Hansen, Liger & probably Ohtani. Dr. Death, Vader, Jumbo, Fuchi, Hashimoto, Hase, and several others come to mind almost immediately as well, rounding out the top ten and moving into #'s 11 and upwards. I could probably list them out in some sort of manner that I'd be confident about. In the US: Bret It gets foggy after Bret, actually. Though guys like Austin stand out more for his role in the matches against Hart, his longevity of having matches like that is comparatively low to someone like HBK, who had a series of excellent matches with a host of opponents from early in the decade up until his back injury. I really like the SummerSlam '92 match between Hart/Smith, as well their In Your House Dec '95 match, but, Davey's resume is relatively small in comparison to someone like HBK, or even Austin. Owen could be a viable #2, though. He had stellar matches against Bret in '94-95, had that one blowaway Raw match with Davey, and was in the sprint tag title match later in the same year. But even Owen suffers from longevity problems. There are guys in the wings though. I guess the problem with American workers in the nineties is first of all longevity, but another major problem is the way American companies were/are booked. In-ring talent doesn't always = huge millionaire superstar. Same goes for Japan, but the disparity was much smaller. Guys WCW had employed for many years could have been having epics in Japan or Mexico or Europe had they not been held under restrictive contract obligations and booked in four to five minute Saturday Night matches. I mean, if WCW had been booked (in-terms of actual working) in similar regards to All Japan, where the super-workers get to do their job like they can instead of what fits into a storyline, then I think WCW would be remembered more for their in-ring work than their failed storylines, as well, the notion of having easier and identifiable picks for worker of the decade would be a realistic one. The obvious steps for determining this type of thing is to talk about matches. Listmania, man. I think this project, if it turns out to be more than just discussion, would be better off if done post-yearbook releases. But it would be something to stand on once all the yearbooks in the nineties are completed though. It'd be interesting to see how much variation in opinions occur from now to whenever all the yearbooks have been released and talked about - of which, Loss will have like 100,000 posts.

I like a lot of the guys listed so far, but I can't see many of them really being serious contenders for US worker of the decade. Ricky Steamboat did not work the entire decade. Neither did Arn Anderson. They were excellent workers, but, they do not have a resume that could compete with Bret's in-terms of overall decade. Maybe in one particular year, maybe, but I look at Bret like this: 4-5-92 vs. Piper 8-29-92 vs. Davey Boy 6-13-93 vs. Hennig 3-20-94 vs. Owen 8-29-94 vs. Owen 12-17-95 vs. Davey Boy 11-17-96 vs. Austin 2-16-97 vs. Austin, Taker & Vader 3-23-97 vs. Austin 9-20-97 vs. Undertaker 10-4-99 vs. Benoit Arn and Ricky might have better matches in some of those years, but they don't have a resume of matches like that in what time they wrestled in the decade. Though, many probably like the WCW early decade TV and PPV matches more than some of the more esteemed Hart matches, but I am not among that camp, especially in regards to some of Hart's finer performances, the MOTDC's. And then it becomes a subjective journey through aesthetics. Hart had the advantage of volume and push, and I'm likely able to admit that if Arn and Ricky had had the chance to work the same calendar decade as Bret, that they'd likely be easy shoe-ins for this discussion.

From January 1st, 1990 to December 31st, 1999, Bret Hart was the US Worker of the decade. His accomplishments in the ring are well-known, and though his WCW endeavor was poor, I agree with Vince on the fact that WCW didn't know what to do with a Bret Hart. Nevertheless, Bret still had some good/great/excellent WCW matches, namely, his tribute match for Owen.

I have the Johnny Saint comp from IVP's site. Well worth getting.

Did not know that Traci Brooks posed for Playboy. Facebook told me that today.

His profile is only slightly hyperbolic. We need him as a member here. He'd fill the super-defensive and "most likely to threaten with physical harm" niches quite nicely.

Are things like that common? And yeah, it is pretty awesome. ----

On that note, I couldn't believe what a total idiot Rey was the past few months. Knew full well his leg was screwed and he was going to have to take time off, just HAD to wrestle a few more matches anyways for no good reason and then messed his leg up worse trying to do a baseball slide or something. Zero sympathy for the guy after hearing about all that. Agreed. Though I wonder how much influence came from behind the scenes a la Angle at WM19. Bret Hart did the same thing. People jump all over themselves to try and pin the blame on Goldberg that they ignore the fact that Hart wrestled 3 or 4 matches after he got that concussion. I've held that notion for quite some time. Though Goldberg gets his just deserts for being a mule of a worker, rightfully so. He had a hard time understanding that pro wrestling was a work. But when Goldberg got a taste of his own medicine by Regal, it was Regal that got canned. And Bret's excuse of not knowing any better, or that because of his concussion that he didn't know he was hurt, I've always found that to be somewhat naive and probably an outright lie. To think that Bret *never* had a concussion prior to his match with Goldberg is a foolish thought. If he could make his flights on time, be at the arena on time, he clearly had an inkling of conscious thought. He was probably trying to do what nearly every other pro wrestler has done when injured - think that they can overcome it. I disagree. Not everyone listens when their body tells them they need to stop. And that's the problem. Since there are no regulations besides that from private doctors, wrestlers will keep plugging away until their joints are made of plastic, their necks are like toothpicks, and their brains become dementia like gray matter. It is a sad truth about pro wrestling that has been largely protected from general public knowledge.

I can understand all of your points, as they're good ones, but I always look at this kind of situation (Flair) more about the physical implications at stake rather than someone being held back because an old man is getting fifteen minute main events. I've been talking about this in some indirect ways, but deaths in pro wrestling and all of the ugly things associated with the business troubles me sometimes. And the point I was making about Flair's lengthy career in comparison to other sports is that other professional athletes have done retired long before they get close to thirty-four years. Nolan Ryan, IIRC, holds the record with 27 years. His throwing arm was hurting him so bad for the last few seasons of his career and is largely why he retired. He was smart. Ric is not as fortunate. I have a problem when guys like him and Angle talk about "wanting to die in the ring." They've taken wrestling too seriously. But guys like Lawler, I'm fine with seeing him on Raw or challenge for the WWE title. He is a good worker. He doesn't look as nearly bad as what Flair has since the night Nitro was on Raw. He doesn't look like the next back body drop will be his last (Though it might after being recently injured). And I know he can teach the young guys something. Ric can too, but there is no way that Flair should be in the kinds of matches or situations that TNA has him do. I mean, Ric is sixty-two. I guess my problem is that at age 62, Flair shouldn't be trying to be Young Flair and do all of his trademark up-down bumps for the face. But I think even sticking to a more amateur style would be better, but not if his heart condition is as bad as it has been made out to be. He looked physically ill in that match with Sting. He just came back from rotatory cuff surgery, which is not an easy injury to rehab, let alone, recover from very well at near modern senior citizen age. I look at Terry Funk in largely the same kind of light after what he looked like on that one documentary. Seeing him do the hardcore style after that video of him getting out of bed was shot is often hard to watch. Like his match against Homicide, which is on a Schneider compilation. It was hard to watch that match. But Terry isn't going full schedule or trying to do a Terry Funk by-the-book nineties match either. And this extends to guys like Misterio and Kobashi. The latter's body is just about gone and the former's body is severely damaged. But yeah, if they don't have a laundry list full of debilitating injuries, don't have heart conditions, and aren't in excruciating pain that requires a dosage of pain killers that would kill a normal person, then yeah, I am all for them continuing their career and making money. But that hardly ever seems to be the case anymore. But I literally cannot fathom what kind of doctor that would medically clear someone like Flair or Misterio.

So the reason why they're not taped/released is because they were probably bad matches. They showed his great ones against Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi in '91. Showed his TC matches against Kawada in both '91 and '92, and Hansen, IIRC. Maybe he was already that severely ill that he just couldn't go anymore. Having him go over Hansen worked. 7/17/90 Terry Gordy vs. Stan Hansen -- Gordy is stripped of the title in 7/90 due to a serious illness. 7/27/90 Stan Hansen vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (for vacent title). His match against Jumbo from June pushed him to the level of quick stand-in title contender. 1/19/91 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Stan Hansen 4/18/91 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (1st defense). Jumbo takes Stan and repels Misawa again. 10/24/91 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Toshiaki Kawada (3rd defense) 1/28/92 Stan Hansen vs. Jumbo Tsuruta Stablemate and #1 gets a shot. It is nearly a year before it is Misawa against Kawada in '92. 1) Hansen gets his job back 2) Baba knew Jumbo was ill but wasn't ready to splurge on a less than stellar payout, Jumbo dropping the crown to Misawa. 3) Maybe it was a part of the plan because they were hotshotting the title back-and-forth, which is a thing Misawa ended, but Jumbo's illness simply came at the wrong time. He would have likely dropped it to Misawa at some point in the coming year. It was clear who the next Ace was and it was clear that his time was approaching cause Jumbo had slowed down considerably. Any three could be correct. Hansen got his jobs back, Baba made people wait to see things go to climax, and the evolution of Misawa was too meteoric to doubt that he'd be the Triple Crown Champion in 1992, even by year's end. He was the #2 Native and was 3rd overall behind Jumbo and Stan. Or, maybe it is just a case of Baba not knowing the severity of the illness. I mean, when did it go public that Jumbo was sick and then really ill. 3/4/92 Stan Hansen vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (1st defense). Hansen again beats Misawa. 6/5/92 Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada (2nd defense). Kawada takes a crack at it again. 7/31/92 Stan Hansen vs. Akira Taue (3rd defense). Jumbo's #1 gets his first ever TC match. 8/22/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Stan Hansen Misawa finally becomes TC champion. Even though it wasn't nearly as spectacular as it could have been if it had been Jumbo that took the running elbow smash, but Misawa ko'ing the #1 in the company, and he's not a native, and its Stan Hansen, then it is still an awesome moment. I'm willing to bet that it was the day Misawa would have won the title on anyway. Baba had things planned out well-ahead of time. 10/21/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (1st defense). 2/28/93 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue (2nd defense). 5/21/93 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Stan Hansen (3rd defense). The goal was accomplished all along, Misawa is the new Ace. Beats his #1, Jumbo's #1, and the former champion. Then goes on to beat Kawada two more times, Hansen again, and Steve Williams. Dave talked about this pretty well too: History of Triple Crown Most of the title switches show signs of continued story as well. It isn't as random as looking at WWF title histories.

That stuff is awesome, man. Thanks for passing that along. They were incredible. I liked Bam Bam's probably the best, though Savage's was top notch as well, as was The Sheik's. I hope they continue that trend, of both awesomeness and tribute. Some guys that haven't gotten a poster yet will undoubtedly be awesome, Lou Thesz, Pillman, Rude, Gordy, Misawa, Jumbo, Andre, Adonis, Stu, etc. Anyone see this yet. That "shaking and had a blank look in his eyes" is frightening to see Dave write, because even with Flair's bad apprearance last week, he didn't go that far. John That doesn't read like a bad match. They're things Jumbo let the youngsters do to him back in the early nineties - take offense, sell, but as the intensity increases, so does Jumbo's offense, which is a better and more over finish. As to what it looked like though, I'll watch it and comment further.

Some people probably would, yeah. But I think his boots should have been hung up long before that. 2008 was like his 34th year in professional wrestling. How many other athletes can say their career spanned a period of time that long? Besides, when someone's career is older than most of the people around him, it is generally a good idea to move along. Flair could have been strictly a manager for the young and upcoming heels, like Dolph Ziggler. At any rate, a more appropriate retirement date would be when Flair stopped being Flair in the ring.

Little tangy tonight are we? I meant exactly what I typed by the way. "Masa Fuchi vs. Ricky Morton". Not Ricky & vs. Masa &. Cause I didn't type that.

Thank you for that. Do you see any good things in any current heels?

He is a natural heel. Has an unassuming body. Nothing particular about his face. But he is pretty much every single vulgar word in the dictionary. He won't move merchandise because of his look, but he'll bust his ass and have an excellent realistic violent looking match that makes the fans happy. So he wouldn't surpass some of the heels I hold to a higher pedestal, but he would be a valuable heel on any roster, and pretty much during any era because of his working ability. Masa Fuchi vs. Ricky Morton? Please tell me it happened.