smkelly

It is raining cold hard truths up in here!

Hopefully you're right. I like seeing new footage. A member of another board apparently has a match between Liger/Benoit during the Super Junior tournament from '91. I'd never seen it, still haven't, didn't know it even existed. Do you have notes on All Japan like that for the entire decade?

1. 6/26/902. Might be 6/18 - don't know if that match exists on tape, though - so it could be from their March 19th or August 19th match. 3. 6/26/90 4. 7/90 5. 8/29/90

Ric is the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of All-Time, in addition to being the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of The 80s. It's impossible for his stock to rise ten-fold unless the set makes people think he walks on water, turns water to wine, and feeds the multitudes. Don't think Ric is the Consensus? Try arguing it with Meltzer sometime. As heady as we think are small circle is, Dave and folks who read he and Bryan are still the consensus. John Look at some of the posts in this thread. Flair is hardly the consensus he used to be, unless the term itself implies something other than what it means. While they are not all definitive declarations, it nevertheless paints the landscape of this discussion in a different color: Flair is not the consensus anymore. So yeah, while the phrasing I used (ten-fold) is as Childs said it was (hyperbole), I nevertheless believe that once the NWA set is released, Flair's stock as what you call him (consensus) will probably be relevant again.

I don't think this thread will ever recover.

Why would his stock rise 10-fold? It's not like his great matches from 1980s NWA/WCW are obscure. They've been pimped for 25 years, and the "Flair could have a good match with anybody" talking point is as old as they come. None of what you're saying is likely to be a revelation to anyone reading this thread. Flair is clearly a strong contender for best wrestler of the 1980s, but he's not a blow away choice for those who love Lawler, Fujiwara, Jumbo etc. Hackneyed hyperbole is not going to change that. Because of the sheer volume of matches available, not just the bigger ones that everyone knows about. And, some apparently needed the revelation because of the 'great matches against great workers' talking point. Clearly, Flair was more than that, hence, why I included the Luger 2/3 falls match that went sixty-minutes in '86. Another example would be Sting in March '88. Nothing copiously exaggerated about that.

NWA World Champion (take WCW champ after 1991) - Thesz WWF World Champion - Hogan AJPW Triple Crown (take NWA International title before 1989) - Misawa

I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? I think Flair's resume of matches in the '80s would be something to see. At any rate, if a Goodhelmet Ric Flair Production were to ever occur, the argument would be over. Would probably seal him in the GOAT top-five without problem - maybe even #1.

John, you could have just said that you disagreed with my point of view. To each their own on the ladder match, I guess. I think ladder matches are supposed to be cheap on the drama/storytelling element and be comprised mostly of extraordinary spots and bumps. I mean, some ladder matches have been worked in an excellent fashion, like the underrated Hardys/WGTT ladder match on, IIRC, the '07 ECW PPV. Excellent ladder match. Was completely different than a TLC match. It had some in-between-the-spots working that was effective. See, Sandman/Sabu didn't have any of that. Kind of like the barbed wire match being mostly the two of them being tangled up in barbed wire, as well, the bumps into the barbed wire. But the ladder match had some excellent bumps. Sabu and Sandman walked away from the arena that night extremely sore. I guess if you're disliking the matches because *you know* that the wrestlers *are* getting hurt/injured, yeah, but to say they sucked because they didn't have purposeful structure is quite a shitty thing to say. It was a ladder match. In ECW. If I want to see perfect *wrestling* I watch All Japan. But if I want to see two guys that are more than willing to take bumps that are blatantly real, fall from ladders, or wrap themselves in barbed wire and go insane, Sabu and Sandman are some go-to guys. It helps quite a bit already liking spotfests/garbage wrestling and not being a restrictive cranky super-smart-fan when you watch them.

Most of Sabu's best work came from Indies in the US - but his garbage matches against Funk (barbed wire) and Sandman (ladder) more than stand the test of time.

Sabu's '90s looks pretty good when a list is made.

I wasn't a huge fan of the acclaimed Douglas/Scorpio match either. I mean, it was good for what it was, but damn, the pacing of that beast was horrible.

I agree with the sentiment on Chicana. From what I've seen, which is minor, has impressed me. Santo was awesome back then too. Jumbo was very good. As a tag or single. Flair is an obvious choice to throw in. Has a *huge* resume of matches that are at just 'good' levels. Choshu was in a lot of good stuff in the decade. Windham had a lot of great stuff, but the best was *against* Flair and Race. Steamboat had stuff against Savage, final conflict, and Flair. Hansen bares mentioning.

I don't know about that. 1989: Flair: 2/20/89 vs. Steamboat 3/18/89 vs. Steamboat x2 4/2/89 vs. Steamboat 5/7/89 vs. Steamboat 11/15/89 vs. Funk Live audiences got to see: 2-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-11-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-12-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-26-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-31-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-8-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-20-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-22-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat I doubt that any of those matches, none of which I have seen, would be anything less than really enjoyable. I have no reason to think that. Same that I wouldn't think one of their untaped/never released/locked away somewhere sixty-minute draws wouldn't be worth my time to watch. Just sayin' I can't help but believe that if those matches were available on tape, the clear winner would be obviously Flair. To be stripped of an easy victory by a technicality - to tape something that people *would* buy. Who knew? However, I can see an argument of Steamboat having a better year, but I think the weight of that argument depends on other Steamboat matches being better than other Flair matches. Flair has his stuff with Funk, and while Steamer had some good ones of his one, notably, against Luger, I can't put much faith in the Luger matches in comparison to the Funk I Quit match. But in the world? Guys like Tenryu and Jumbo come to mind for All Japan. Kawada and Fuyuki are good 2nd tier choices from AJ. Hansen is a shoe in. Maeda in UWF, Funaki too. New Japan had the beloved IWGP Title Tournament. Hashimoto is an expected choice singularly, but surprisingly, so is Hashimikov. Liger too, Sano as well. WWF had Rockers, HF, and Brainbusters, and Savage. NWA had Steamer, and Funk at the end of the year. Nothing comes to mind right away for Memphis in '89. I have the set, so if there is one, I'll watch the disc/match again. I haven't seen much lucha in the '80s, but I do have a handful of the more esteemed matches. Dandy looked really good in the two I have of him, which are both against Emilio. The other two matches I have from lucha in '89 is Estrada/Cruz 10/20 and Brazo/Morgan 11/16. They're fantastic too. I could definitely see an argument for one of those guys if they have more matches like the ones I've seen them in already. Embry comes to mind for World Class. Benoit and Johnny Smith were tearing it up in Stampede in '89, which was a continuation of their '88 matches/feud. No idea about joshi. --- There was a lot to enjoy from '89 wrestling. Flair in '89 is a favorite of mine, but lucha was probably just as great, only in different ways. Embry was awesome, but not Flair/Steamboat. I don't know about NJ stuff either. It was good, but not quite enough. WWF is a no. Memphis, still can't think of a big one, and I don't want to guess from a list. I'd say no to the UWF guys. No to Kawada and Fuyuki. Benoit/Smith is really entertaining, but its not as good. But I'd say yeah to Jumbo/Tenryu 6/5. It at the least beats out a few, maybe all the Flair/Steamboat matches, let alone, Flair/Funk. But that's only one match. It'd be the Match of the Year, but wouldn't hold much in-terms of Worker of the Year. So it comes down to Flair versus Lucha. Or if there are joshi matches, etc. The 80s is so much more interesting than the nineties or the 00's. Same goes for the 70s. There were some freaking awesome matches in those two decades, and I've seen most of the nineties and most of all the 00's 'required' viewing. What are some recommended viewing for lucha other than the stuff I've mentioned already?

I'd vote Flair too. His 1989 is likely the best 'peak' year of any wrestler in any promotion during any era.

Eddy is a contender, that much I know. I can't recall much of 2000 for him. 2001 has no matches that pop out to me. 2002 is when he went from 'disappointing' to 'excellent' with the SmackDown 6 era. 2003 doesn't ring any bells all that much. 2004 was one of the finer years of Eddy's career. And in 2005, he went out on a good year of in-ring work. I could be wrong about '00-01, '03 - but nothing is really standing out to me. He has three solid years out of the bunch, of which, he missed the rest of the decade. But I think his work from his better years is sufficient enough of a resume to be a mandatory top ten lock. I don't know about #1, but he's somewhere in the top ten.

Necro had a surprising list of good/great matches in the decade. He has the deathmatches. Matches against guys like Joe, Ki, Strong. His match against Super Dragon is a darkhorse match in itself. He's not going to make my top ten, probably not at least, but I can see an argument for him being in the top thirty (maybe even twenty). And I wasn't considering that Styles/Daniels/Homicide were *lock* or even in the top ten. I mentioned them because they had largely been unmentioned, and because they were a contingent of super-Indy workers for the decade.

Eddy is a strong contender.

How do guys like AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, and Homicide rank? I have a ton of matches of their's on my want list, mostly from smaller Indy feds like IWC or 3PW, but have never read a review, or heard anything about them on this message board. But they do have some other work that is widely distributed. Styles was an entertaining worker, a spot monkey, yes, but he was pretty crisp in his execution of the moves, more so than a lot of notable spot monkeys. Daniels had some good stuff in the early rise of ROH. As well matches against Styles in TNA, as well Samoa Joe. And Homicide has a batch of good-great matches on his resume too - notably against Steve Corino. WWE guys - Hunter, Michaels, Taker, Edge, Batista, Orton. Mad Dog has Cena at #1. I'm not sure of Cena's placement yet because of his match against Umaga being my #1 favorite of the decade. Thoughts on Cena?

LOL! Well said.

While I find nothing wrong with the thought of gimmick matches being better than normal matches, the way I weigh one is different than the way I weigh the other. Gimmick matches are a stretch. They're largely unrealistic. Highspots that would equal 'death' in a normal match are no-sold because of time constraints and more Michael Bay bumps are still to come. That is definitive of the post-2000 era mainstream wrestling. I like them more than most though. It is nothing more than stunt men performing acts of insanity in front of live crowds, only, they're not trained stunt men in the sense of their performance. There are times when a TLC match will interest me more than some '89 Flair match, or the '92 Bret-Davey match. There are times when I hardly watch any American wrestling at all - only All Japan. Nevertheless, when I see something like Bret-Davey x2, Bret-Owen x2, Bret-Austin x2 - they're undeniably great wrestling matches. And there are only a handful of gimmick matches in the US during the nineties that can beat any one of those matches out, and to me, Shawn wasn't in any of them besides the pseudo-gimmick match against Mankind. The two ladder matches were good, but kind of like Tiger-Dyno, they were good for their time. Because gimmick matches are really pointless without having lots of gimmicks, like, watching Clive Myers and some other felxible WOS worker doing Cirque du Soleil on a ladder doesn't sound realistic nor entertaining. Taking huge bumps a la a Hardy Boy wasn't around yet. But a Hardy Boy ladder match is better than a Michaels ladder match for the same reason Dawn of the Dead (2004) is better than Night of the Living Dead (1968). 'Ladder match' = 'people falling from the top of the ladder'. Kind of like King of the Hill. So when I see a ladder match that had smart spots, but little bumps, and, then watch another match that has smart spots as well, but a lot of *big* bumps - I'm gonna like #2 more. But if some of you guys think otherwise, that's fine too, they're all good matches anyway.

Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle 1-19-03 WWF (My #3 match of the decade) & Jericho vs. Austin & HHH 5-21-01 WWF (My #6 match of the decade) vs. HHH vs. Michaels 3-14-04 WWF & Angle vs. Misterio Jr & Edge 10-20-02 WWF vs. Jericho 1-21-01 WWF TLC III 5-24-01 WWF vs. William Regal 10-8-06 WWF vs. Steve Austin 5-31-01 WWF vs. Kurt Angle 6-11-01 WWF vs. HHH vs. Michaels 4-18-04 WWF vs. Eddie Guerrero vs. Edge vs. Angle 12-5-02 WWF Ten man tag 2-7-00 WWF vs. Finlay 5-21-06 WWF

Bryan Danielson vs. Takeshi Morishima 8-25-07 ROH (My #2 match of the decade) vs. KENTA 9-16-06 ROH (My #7 match of the decade) vs. Nigel McGuinness 6-9-07 ROH (My #8 match of the decade) vs. KENTA 6-23-07 ROH (My #9 match of the decade) vs. Paul London 4-12-03 ROH vs. Nigel McGuinness 8-12-06 ROH vs. Low Ki 3-30-02 ROH vs. Nigel McGuinness 4-29-06 ROH vs. Ki vs. Daniels 2-23-02 ROH vs. Nigel McGuinness 11-22-08 ROH vs. Low Ki 2-24-01 ECWA vs. Low Ki 7-21-01 ECWA vs. Samoa Joe 8-6-06 ROH --- When I did a Best of 2000's poll at another forum, I did the normal statistical breakdown seen in other polls.

Regal's '96: Fit Finlay vs. Steven Regal - Uncensored '96 (3/24/96) Fit Finlay vs. Steve Regal - Nitro (4/96 - Parking Lot Brawl) Steven Regal vs. Fit Finlay Sat Night (4/13/96) Sting vs. Steve Regal GAB 96 (6/16/96) Chris Benoit vs. Steve Regal Nitro (11/25/96 - US Title Tournament) Steve Regal vs. Chris Benoit Nitro (12/2/96)