JerryvonKramer

rovert, I'll repeat: My preference for old wrestling is nothing to do with the quality of wrestling by the way. For all I know or care, 2013 might have been the best in-ring year of all time. It just doesn't interest me much. But for the purposes of the GOAT project, I've said I'll watch anything and give it a fair shake. But I've made no secret of the fact that I like smoky arenas, old men in the front row, and all the rest of it. It's not just the in-ring stuff, it's the entire package, the whole presentation. I openly dislike modern crowds and I've said so many times. And for years I couldn't stand the WWE's turgid nu-metall-y presentation (in fairness, it has changed in the past few years). I dislike scripted promos. We need not get into this, just go and listen to a JR or Cornette rant and imagine me saying it. The only difference is that I'm not so much down on the modern stuff as openly indifferent to it. I've said I'll give it a chance. I have Shield and Daniel Bryan matches on my hard drive waiting to be watched. I downloaded the entire G1 climax, but just couldn't bring myself to actually sit down and watch it. But I will at some point. And, y'know, I love suplexes so I'll probably like some of the matches more than anyone will expect. But my so-called "biases" are not just about in-ring, it's the whole deal. The "feel" of it.

I have spent a ridiculously long time putting together a list of all the Dory matches I have been able to find from before 1988 in one Loss-style list. I will edit this into the first post and "strike out" the ones I've seen. NWA Champ (misc) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Gene Kiniski (2/11/69) [wins title] Dory Funk Jr vs. Jack Brisco (01/01/71) [st. Louis] JWA Dory Funk Jr. vs Antonio Inoki (02/12/69) Dory Funk Jr. vs Antonio Inoki (08/02/70) Dory Funk Jr. vs Seiji Sakaguchi (12/09/71) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs Giant Baba and Seiji Sakaguchi (05/19/72) All Japan Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Tomomi Tsuruta (10/09/73) Dory Funk Jr. vs Jack Brisco (01/27/74) Dory Funk Jr. vs Jumbo Tsuruta (08/29/74) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (03/13/75) Dory Funk Jr. vs Baron von Raschke (09/12/75) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Abdullah The Butcher (12/06/75) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Horst Hoffman (12/15/75) Dory Funk Jr. vs Jumbo Tsuruta (12/18/75) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Billy Robinson and Horst Hoffman (12/06/77) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (12/15/77) Dory Funk Jr. vs. The Shiek (12/01/78) Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Nick Bockwinkel and Blackjack Lanza (09/21/78) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/15/78) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Mil Mascaras (1/30/79) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Mil Mascaras and Dos Caras (12/7/79) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Shiek and Abdullah the Butcher (2/3 falls match, 07/15/79) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (11/30/79) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Mr. Wrestling (12/03/79) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Nick Bockwinkel and Jim Brunzell (12/9/80) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Billy Robinson and Les Thornton (12/03/80) - MISSING, can't find this one Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/11/80) Dory Funk Jr. vs Terry Funk (4/30/81) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Umanoseke Ueda & Buck Robley (10/6/81) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Bruiser Brody (10/9/81) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Bruiser Brody and Jimmy Snuka (12/13/81) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Butch Reed (2/3/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Billy Robinson (03/07/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Bruiser Brody (4/21/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Bruiser Brody and Jimmy Snuka (4/22/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood (12/2/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Harley Race and Dick Slater (12/9/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen (12/13/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Super Destroyer (12/07/1982) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen (4/20/83) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83) Dory Funk Jr. and Giant Baba vs. Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen (04/25/84) Dory Funk Jr. and Giant Baba vs. Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen (08/26/84) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen (12/08/84) [given 5-star Meltzer rating, left off 80s AJPW set)] Dory Funk Jr., Giant Baba and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Marty Jannetty, Killer Tim Brooks and Tim Horner (08/24/85) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen and Ted DiBiase (08/31/85) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk and Tiger Mask vs. Terry Gordy, Chavo Guerrero and Billy Robinson (10/21/85) Dory Funk Jr., Giant Baba and Motoshi Okuma vs. Rusher Kimura, Ashura Hara and Masa Fuchi (12/07/85) Dory Funk Jr and Giant Baba vs. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu (12/14/85) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu (08/31/86) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Road Warriors (10/20/86) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Rick Martel and Tom Zenk (11/29/86) Florida Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco (??/??/69 )[non-title] Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco (12/01/71) [non-title] Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco (08/02/72) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jerry Brisco - (01/07/75) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Jack and Jerry Brisco (??/??/77) Dory Funk Jr. vs. David Sierra (09/17/81) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Steve Keirn (05/08/81) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Mike Graham (08/13/81) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Jack and Jerry Brisco (01/07/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Eric Embry (01/14/82) Dory Funk Jr. and David Von Erich vs. Eric Embry and Ron Rithie (01/21/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. B. Brain Blair (06/06/82) Dory Funk Jr. and David Von Erich vs. Jack and Jerry Brisco (03/07/82) Dory Funk Jr. and David Von Erich vs. Cyclone Negro and El Gran Apollo (??/??/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Kendo Nagasaki vs. Butch Reed and Sweet Brown Suger (06/09/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. David Von Erich (06/15/82) Dory Funk Jr. and Jesse Barr vs Harley Race and Mike Graham (9/26/84) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Kevin Sullivan (08/09/87) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Mike Rotunda (05/21/87) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Barry Windham (??/??/87) Mid-Atlantic Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jay Youngblood (10/13/82) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco (01/30/83) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Ricky Morton (02/16/83) - MISSING [can't find any MACW from 1983 at all] GCW Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Tommy Rogers and El Gran Apollo (01/02/82) Memphis Jerry Lawler vs. Dory Funk Jr. (3/30/81) WWC Dory Funk Jr. vs. Super Medico (10/01/86) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Armando Salgado and Carlos Ocasio (??/??/86) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Angelo Gomez (??/??/86) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk and Ron Starr vs. The Invaders and Mil Mascaras (12/17/86) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Invader #1 (02/28/87) Dory Funk Jr. and Marti Funk vs. Carlos Colon and Fabulous Moolah (??/??/87) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Super Medico II (??/??/87) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Road Warriors (20/09/1987) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Bruiser Brody (02/27/88) Detroit Dory Funk Jr. and The Sheik vs. Stan Stasiak and Don Kent (07/09/78) Dory Funk Jr. and Pierre Lefevre vs. Don Kent and Kurt Von Hess (07/09/78) Dory Funk Jr. vs. Denny Albert (??/??/78)

You going to post the article Bill?

Recommend me some matches and I'll watch and review them. That's a promise.

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ... Greg Valentine Tito Santana Terry Gordy Jim Brunzell Ron Garvin Paul Orndorff Ken Patera Dennis Condrey Manny Fernandez Adrian Adonis Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching. This is going to end up being pointless, though, because of course if you're combing the territories, with more than 20 years of perspective, you're going to find more good workers. The other side is handicapped by the fact a lot of indie stars are still establishing what they are and how good they might be. Again, I'm not so much interested in arguing that the modern indies are as fertile as the territories. I just think it's wrong to imply they're infertile or not producing a good cross-section of workers. Sure, I have no beef with that and accept that they aren't totally infertile. But this line of argument started with Joe making a much more grandiose claim about there being more exceptional workers now than 20, 30, 40 years ago. This is demonstrably untrue and it's all I wanted to show. I'll admit that the way I put it might have been a bit bigoted, but Joe seems to rile me up more than most. In a bit I have a slightly different avenue to explore for this thread, but need to get back home to make the post.

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ... Greg Valentine Tito Santana Terry Gordy Jim Brunzell Ron Garvin Paul Orndorff Ken Patera Dennis Condrey Manny Fernandez Adrian Adonis Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching.

I'm on my phone on a train so must keep it short. Don't think I was clear in what I was asking for. In the comparison Bryan or Punk would be your equivalent of Ric Flair (ie. top main event worker at world title level). I'm looking for the guys a bit lower down the card, not the top top names. I'm also not dismissing anyone.

I'm going to throw out some names who were the product of the system I'm talking about and I'd like people to tell me what the modern equivalent would be who has been produced by the indies. Okay? Arn Anderson Ted DiBiase Dick Murdoch Bobby Eaton Ricky Morton Tully Blanchard Barry Windham Rick Martel Buzz Sawyer Butch Reed There are 10 names of people from various backgrounds with varying different degrees of success. Arguably none of them was ever quite as big a star as someone like Daniel Bryan in that none of them worked as the ace of the WWF/E. They all had periods as midcard acts. Who are the the modern equivalents of these guys? We could do 20 or 30 more, but let's start with 10. I'm not having a go at anyone by the way, I'm just very sceptical that the indies of the past 15 years are producing comparable workers at that midcard or upper midcard level. Experienced, seasoned pros who know how to work. Ring generals who can call it in the ring and control the pace and tone of a match, as well as the crowd. Guys who can slot into various different roles. It's all very well pointing to your Bryans and Punks, but the claim made was "exceptional world class talent" -- of which I'd say the 10 guys I listed were despite not being top top superstars. I'm off out for the next few hours, I look forward to learning about who the modern Arn Anderson is.

I'd like to nominate Mike Quakenbush to see where he finishes in the overall voting.

I remember really loving that Regal match.

The key takeaway from me wasn't my casual diss about the stereotypical indie style (for which I apologise, I realise that there is more than just that out there if you look for it). The key takeaway was the idea that working the indies is in NO WAY a substitute for the on-the-job experience a guy would get from working the old territories. Let's pick someone at random: Roddy Piper. Piper paid his dues in LA and Portland. After that he went to GCW and then Mid-Atlantic. So by the time he reaches WWF he has almost a decade's experience working proper shows with seasoned pros. You can do this with pretty much anyone from that era who made it. Indy promotions, regardless of their style, don't run 300 shows a year. They don't tend to play to crowds bigger than a couple of hundred. And -- as I said -- they don't "raise" their audiences. Whatever your diehard Chikara fan thinks, he's not the same as the guy who has been going to see the wrestling every week in Memphis or every month in St. Louis for the past 20 years. The choice to watch Chikara is a bit like buying a chocolate bar. "Do you want the one with nuts in it or do you want the caramel one, sir?" So great, they've got a solid brand identity, but don't try to palm that off as being the same as a territory with a 50+ year history tied to its particular region. This little exchange started when you made this ridiculous claim: Now don't talk complete and utter shit. Are you really telling me that the rosters of Chikara or PWG can compare with the rosters of those old territories? Serious? A while back Dylan, Kelly and I did five podcasts when we went through analysing and rating the rosters of all of the US territories from 1981. All of them, including the outlaws like Angelo Poffo's ICW. Not every roster was stellar, there were some really shit ones (e.g. Central States). But I wonder where the very best indy roster of 2014 would rank in that field. I mentioned Poffo's ICW. In 1981 they had Randy Savage, Ron Garvin, Bob Roop, Bob Orton Jr, One Man Gang and Pez Whatley with special attractions like The Sheik or Thunderbolt Patterson coming in for spot shows. This was one of the thinner rosters we looked at. How many times are you going to try to tell me that Mike Quackenbush is better than all of those guys? Which indy promotions exactly have got rosters to compete even with Poffo's ICW from 1981 -- a promotion that wasn't a proper territory on the very fringes of pro wrestling? Now let's do Mid-Atlantic who had Flair, Piper, Ivan Koloff, Ole Anderson, Ricky Steamboat, Wahoo McDaniel, the list goes on and on. Now let's do GCW who had Tommy Rich, Terry Gordy, Ted DiBiase, Ken Patera, Butch Reed, Bill Eadie, Bobby Eaton ... we can keeping going. How's Mike Quackenbush faring? As I said, that statement you made is complete and utter nonsense.

No need to be so rude. Just because you don't like the comparison doesn't negate the fact that it's a perfectly valid one. Of course there are inherent differences between acting and wrestling, but Brando's name was brought up elsewhere in this thread and there are definitely similarities worth discussing. One of the major points of argument is whether Flair's later work should be held against him. Looking to a similar situation in another industry is perfectly reasonable. As for your argument that Flair has lots and lots of matches compared to the amount of movies Brando has made, well, so does Koko B. Ware. What's your point? The point is that Brando's GOAT case is made on a handful of iconic performances and Flair's is based on consistent great performances "week in, week out". It isn't a valid comparison because it's off. If you MUST make the analogy between Flair and an actor, at least pick one who is comparable. Brando isn't the right one. You need an actor who was having Oscar nominations year on year and who had a lot of great performances in a lot of films. Someone like Dustin Hoffman from The Graduate in 1967 to Rain Man in 1988 and everything he did in between. A Flair - Dustin Hoffman comparison works better for your purposes all round, even down to the late career. The Brando one doesn't work period. If you MUST make the analogy between Brando and a wrestler, you need a wrestler who was seen as being incredibly naturally talented who has 3-4 matches considered the among the best of all-time, but who for the rest of the time was in a lot of mediocre or nothing matches. Ricky Steamboat? I dunno. I like the Steamboat comparison because, like Brando, a lot of people casually refer to Steamboat as the GOAT (or at least they used to) and people bee-line to the iconic performances. Beach Blast 92 with Rude is your Last Tango, the Flair match at Spring Stampede 94 Apocalypse Now. Let's stop this idiocy now. And, sorry, didn't mean to come across as being rude. I'm just pissed off that so much of this thread has been about total crap. It's not fair to Flair.

Is it true Chikara's record gate is 864 fans? I just don't understand how anyone can think that that is in any way comparable to any of the old territories I named. Even in Portland, which was one of the smaller ones, there is evidence of gates over 10,000. As far as I know, even ECW never had gates over 10k. Are you seriously suggesting that PWG running less than 20 shows a year averaging less then 200 people in attendance is broadly the equivalent of GCW or Mid-Atlantic? Are you fucking crazy?

It's bad enough without this pedantic quibbling OJ. Everyone here is intelligent enough to know the difference between wrestling and movies. Analogies don't have to be perfect to work. Although I'd be generally happy if talk of Brando was dropped in general here.

Chikara, PWG, CZW, NWA SAW, ROH, etc , etc Sorry but are you trolling me? I honestly can't tell.

The Flair - Brando comparison is crap and barely dignifies a response. Flair was prolific and his GOAT case is based on lots and lots and lots of great performances over a sustained period. So basically the opposite of Brando's few iconic performances. I'm pretty annoyed that all of this great stuff that Loss is posting about Flair's career, and this is still the sort of shit that this thread is producing.

Okay ... care to tell me what the modern indie equivalents of Mid-Atlantic, Georgia, Memphis, Mid-South, Florida, and Portland are then?

Here's a question though: who did have a career comparable to Flair? Jack Brisco was NWA champion for 2 years and was so burnt out that he literally couldn't continue in the role. Terry Funk has said that the toll from being on the road as traveling champ was something he couldn't have done for much longer than he did. Flair did it arguably for 10 years, and definitely for 6. Dory Funk Jr and Jack Brisco were both "pure wrestlers", insomuch as they carried the title primarily in terms of being credible guys. Those two were not the most charismatic guys in the world, and they drew based mainly on the idea that they were the best wrestlers in the world and because they were champ. Flair did that. Terry Funk and Harley Race had more charisma and character. They relied on it as much as they relied on credibility. They would go into towns and bump around against local heroes, getting involved in short-term angles, cutting promos and so on while they were in the territory. Flair did that. If you stop his career right at the start of 1986, you could argue that Flair had equaled or bettered each of the previous four NWA champions in their own areas of strength. He had the wrestling ability and credibility of Dory Jr/ Brisco; he had the charisma and crowd control of Funk; he had the bumping and stooging abilities of Harley Race. It's almost like the evolution of what the NWA champion should be led directly to what Flair was. This is without going into 87-9 or anything he did in the 90s. The question is: who else had "the exact same day" as that? Who else even had a day that is remotely comparable to that? That's the question to focus on first.

This is a staggeringly misguided post on so many levels that I don't even know where to start. - The idea that the talent pool is wider or deeper now than when there were 40 active territories doing good business around the US and Canada (not to mention what was going on in Japan, Mexico and Europe) is absolutely laughable. How can you even think that? I'm not even having a go, I'm just completely baffled as to how anyone can actually belief there is *more* "great, exceptional worldwide talent" now than in the heyday of the territorial system. It's bonkers. - The reasons for this are not very hard to see: 1. By the time a guy who came up through the old system of 30, he might have legitimately worked big shows in Georgia, the Carolinas, the Twin Cities, Florida, New York, St. Louis, Memphis, Portland, LA, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Tokoyo. That's big shows, in front of big, paying crowds. 2. Each of these places was run by wrestling people who knew their shit. Guys like Eddie Graham, Sam Muchnik, Vince Sr, Verne Gagne, Bill Watts, and so on -- they could put together finishes, they had guys who knew how to put a match together, they understood psychology. Compare any of those guys to your standard indie promoter and the latter is blown out of the water in terms of knowledge of the audience, practical know-how, knowledge of wrestling, knowledge of work. etc. 3. Talent could gain experience working in front of different types of crowds. Working at MSG was different from working at the Omni was different at working at the Mid-South Coliseum was different to working at the Kiel in St. Louis. Different crowds legitimately raised on different products. Today, the indie crowds are nothing like that. No indie promotion has "raised" its audience. The indie fan in London is the same as the indie fan in Texas. Why? They all grow up watching the same product. Even your diehard hardcores into ROH still have only that as their real basis of comparison. "THIS IS AWESOME". "Holy shit! Holy Shit!" etc. So the idea that that generic indie environment can give you the same sort of on-the-job training as the old territories is totally nuts. Totally. 5. Instead what you get is guys watching wrestling on TV, getting some basic training in how to throw a suplex and do a moonsault, and other such spots, and then going in like headless chickens trying to copy their favourite Japanese stars (or whatever). Let's say a guy is lucky enough to get a contract with WWE developmental. With the best will in the world, do you think that the training they are goinig to get is going to compare with working in front of 10,000 people on real, paid for shows? Seriously? 6. Even if you allow for idea that "raw workrate" today is more than it was in the 70s and 80s, how are you replacing the knowledge and experience? Where does the psychology come from? How can someone accrue the hours in the ring in front of real crowds necessary to acquire a real FEEL for the crowd and how to work them? How do you create ring generals? "Raw workrate" can't substitute for any of that.

I agree with that as it happens. He also used many more moves when he was younger and slowly pared it back as the 80s progress. Of course, he'd continue to pare back until we're just left with the low blow, but let's not talk about that. I'd like to see more Mid-Atlantic from before 83.

Just interested more than anything, but why do you put Choshu ahead of Jumbo or even Tenryu for the 80s? I'm not sure where Choshu will finish for me, need to think about him more, but you can probably add about a +5 on his final placement just because he looked so cool.

I'll be disappointed if your negative campaigning denies them their rightful place in the top 5 tagteams ever.

Seeing these listings from Loss, I also want to mention re: the character stuff that he would behave differently in different contexts. Dick heel Flair on TV was not the same as the stately regal Flair you get in Japan. At times he'd be babyface in Mid-Atlantic while being heel in Georgia. He's not the same in those Jumbo matches as he is in the ones with Race. He's slightly different again in Texas. Of course, all of this is just more evidence of the guy's greatness, but when you see it all listed out like that, it brings home how multifaceted he could be.

... how about with his brother?!

A big silly booming voice saying "what the WORLD is watching"