JerryvonKramer

I'm not saying the "lesser" territories aren't important at all, I'm just saying let's not pretend that the difference between doing 10,000+ at Kiel / Omni / Greensboro and doing less than a third of that in Amarillo doesn't matter when to comes to the HoF. It does matter. Think about what you're saying here. We should treat the old Funks West Texas territory that went out of business in 1978 on the same level as Crockett? Why?

That's exactly what I'd come back in to post Pete, lol.

Total nerd you are Steven, total

Snobbery? I don't get this at all Will. Selling out MSG, the Philly Spectrum and Boston Garden isn't comparable to headlining a sub-2,000-people gate in Lubbock, TX. If major stars wanted big paydays in the 70s, WWWF was destination number 1, then AWA, Mid-Atlantic and GCW. In the early 70s Florida would be higher up, as would LA. The Omni is a big show. Greensboro is a big show. GCW had TBS so that's national exposure. Let's not pretend that there wasn't a hierarchy among the territories. Big names would gravitate towards the money territories. Are you going to try to tell me that headlining in Central States is worth the same as Mid-Atlatic or Florida? Demonstrably it's not the same. Same with Portland, clearly a rung down. It's not snobbery, just the cold hard fact of it. There was a hierarchy and that hierarchy means that some places are more important and mean more than others. Certain destinations are the top of the tree, others are lower down. It's why St. Louis is important, even though you no-sell it Will.

Tremendous stuff this Kris, was just lamenting the fact that we don't have all this in one place for Murdoch and now we do. Initial observation is that while a lot of the stuff I was saying still holds, his 1978 run in Mid-Atlantic looks like he was working strong opposition in main events or otherwise high on the card. I do wonder if his US stuff is hurt a bit by the fact he was working less important promotions a lot of the time. Just spent too long in Amarillo and in McGuirk's territory. Not running those places down, but they are not WWF, Mid-Atlantic and GCW are they? He does seem to spend a lot of time bouncing around not really doing much of note.

I've made a start. My initial impressions are that Brisco is SAFELY in contention for "best wrestler of the 70s". He's silky smooth, very athletic, great high dropkicks, deep armdrags, fastest figure-four ever, big bumps, terrific at selling, good fire, good timing, great connection with the crowd. He just seems to be everything that you'd want a pro wrestler to be. I'd recommend trying to find that Terry Funk match from St. Louis. It is clipped and there's no sound, but you can tell that was a great match. My basic plan from here on out is to alternate between Dory, Brisco and Race in between all the other stuff I'm watching. I am "saving" the Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr series for last as a kind of finale.

Forget whatever else happened in this thread, it's GWE assessment time. I've acquired an 11-DVD Jack Brisco set, which seems to have more or less everything we have on tape on it. I anticipate that some of this stuff will be clips, but there are also full matches. I think we have more than enough of a sampling size to get a real measure of what Brisco was like as a worker. Two frustrating things about this set: 1. It's not in chronological order 2. There are no dates, so I'm having to look things up and make some guesses too. On the plus side, it starts with a shot of an actual sheet of paper with "Best of Jack Brisco Vol. 1: Coliseum of Wrestling and Boxing" written on it. Jack Brisco vs. Mr Saito (1969 on screen caption, seems actually to be 2/10/70) The commentary on this is really weird because it seems to have like an old hag of a woman on colour with Gordon Solie. It seems like this is an archive clip from around the time of Brisco's debut shown on Florida TV years later in a feature called "Blast from the Past". The woman really objects to this stuff being shown because it's a waste of time and Solie talks about all the letters they've had from fans who really want to see this stuff. This was either a very short match or just a clip, but it was worked in an incredibly amatuer style (perhaps owing to Saito's olympic past and Brisco's credentials). There was a ton of rolling around in various quick counters before the finish. Pretty amazing to see Saito so young. Jack Brisco vs Bobby Shane (09/12/1973) Bobby Shane's ring attire looks not unlike an outfit that could be worn by obscure Batman villian Crazy Quilt. I've seen rumours that this was Shane's last match before he'd be killed in the tragic plane crash, but that is almost certainly not true because he had a run with the Australian tag titles in 1974 and was killed in February 75. Only about 3 minutes shown, not enough to get a feel for either guy. Jack Brisco vs Pak Song (04/17/76) Joined in progress. Couple of leg drops from Song. He's not wearing any boots. Backbreaker by Brisco and a big knee lift. Two big left hands. Pak Song could easily be Giant Baba's cousin from the way he looks. Big butterfly suplex by Brisco, dropkick. Figure-four. Song counters. And a thrust to the throat by Song floors Brisco. Song throws Brisco out of the ring. Brisco gets on the apron, Song goes for a slam but Brisco counters for an inside cradle to get the Florida title. We got to see a bit more here, and Brisco looked really good. The backbreaker and butterfly suplex were well executed. He got very good leverage on his drop kicks. The punches looked good. He was very over with the crowd. The sold Song's thrust to the throat like an absolute pro. I've argued before that Brisco was the prototype for the 80s babyfaces like Rick Martel and Ricky Steamboat, and you can really see that here. Jack Brisco vs vs Terry Funk (03/26/76) This is from St. Louis, when Funk was NWA champ. Just a low buzzing noise for audio, pretty grainy, clipping. We join Jack and Terry in the midst of a Greco-Roman knuckle lock. Couple of dropkicks from Brisco. Headlock takeover and into a headlock. Funk goes to the eyes and tries to pull Brisco's nose. Funk tries to come back but Brisco goes back to the headlock. Sends him into the turnbuckle and Funk flips over it. Funk sends Brisco packing out of the ring. He flops over the second rope and Funk gives him an elbow. Big piledriver gets Funk two. Neckbreaker gets the three for the first fall, Brisco sells it as if he's having palpatations. Brisco's down for some time, seems to be really injured. Just to be a cock, Funk gives him a stomp. The ref is trying to revive Brisco but he's in real pain. He can't seem to get up. He sits up and Funk sneaks up behind him with a headbutt to the back of the neck. Funk brings him back up and elbows him right across his injured neck. The match is now officially in the second fall and Funk gets two. Chinlock. Headlock. Funk really grinds this headlock and Brisco struggles like hell. His arms and legs are like jelly being electricuted. Cover gets two for Funk. Brisco hits a desperation shinbreaker which Funk sells wildly. Brisco capitalises by going after the leg some more and gets on his figure-four. Funk sells this wildly flopping his arms about and he submits. Third fall. Funk is still down and Brisco stalks the ring. Brisco continues his assault on Funk's leg. He takes it outside and slams it on the apron. He works the leg some more. Figure-four! Funk reverses and gets an inside cradle for two. Series of near falls results in Funk getting the pin and retaining the title. I'm really glad I got to see this, it looked fantastic. We get to see quite a bit of this match and the clipping is not too severe. If we had it in full it would be an easy ****+. The psychology is just excellent here, with Funk destroying Brisco's neck in the first fall and then being a dick in not letting him recover, then Brisco managing to pull off the shinbreaker on instinct which allows him to start targetting the leg. Superb storytelling and all this was tremendously well worked. The selling in this match from both guys was excellent. Jack Brisco and Black Angus vs. Harley Race and Dr.Bill Miller (1973??) Apparently from St. Louis. I can't find this match listed anywhere online. It's not on Brisco's career results page on Mid-Atlantic Gateway and it's not listed in various St. Louis resources. Miller is one of those guys you just never hear about, almost totally forgotten to history. Black Angus (of WoS fame) had a run in Central States in the early 70s. Since Brisco is NWA champ here, I'm dating this to some time in 1973. Again no sound for this. Angus works a headlock on Miller. Race comes in, gets a big slam for his trouble. Miller gets Angus in a bearhug. Race comes in and sends Angus down with a concealed punch. Hiptoss gets barely one. Angus kicks out with authority bringing Miller in to stomp him. Brisco in now and he decimates both heels before taking an assisted backbreaker across Harley's knee. Angus beats on both heels but gets caught with a knee to the gut from Race. Miller covers and gets the three for the first fall. Brisco levels Miller with a dropkick now. Race comes in. Faces send heels in for the collision. Brisco catches Race with the high dropkick. Slam gets two. Race hits a back suplex to stop Brisco's momentum. Falling headbutt. Angus back in and he takes a slam from Race. Brisco back in with three dropkicks on Race. Backdrop from Angus gets the second fall. Miller attacks Angus and Race comes in with knees and a piledriver. Brisco gets the figurefour on Miller, Race breaks it. Abdominal stretch now and a kneelift sends Miller over the top. But Brisco gets caught outside the ring. Race suplexes him back in and covers for three. Brisco is out and Race gives him an kneedrop for good measure. Angus was too late with the save. Hmmm, Race pinned the champ! The clipping on this one was a lot more rampant than the Funk match and it was difficult to follow at times. Miller looked well past his prime here. Angus worked as a big lumbering babyface, but no doubt the match was structured around Brisco as the big star. Race stooged quite a bit for Angus at the start. What came out of this for me was the sheer elevation on Brisco's dropkicks and the extent to which he bumps around. He seems so much more athletic and exciting than everyone around him. Race got his fair share of bombs in here, but the star of the show was Brisco's selling. This has been a throughline so far: Brisco is very very good at selling as well as bumping. Jack Brisco vs Ric Flair (03/07/80) Again with this no-sound St. Louis footage. Pat O'Connor is the guest ref; as Larry Matysik never forgets to note, O'Connor would book himself as special guest ref frequently to get double paydays. Armdrag by Brisco to start and Flair immediately begs off. Flair tries a couple of Irish whips but Brisco grabs the ropes to stop them. A lot of rope running here. Brisco connects with a dropkick. Headlock take over. Flair comes back with the atomic drop. More rope running, Flair gets Brisco in the breadbasket with a kick. Atomic drop by Brisco sold like a chicken by Flair. Flair manages to start working on Brisco's leg now. Sends him down with some forearms and gets on the figure-four for the first fall. Second fall now and Flair stays on the leg, but Brisco is able to counter and comes back with his own figure-four to make it 1-1. Brisco still sells his own leg injury as he's walking to his corner. Excellent touch. Brisco hits a shinbreaker and Flair tries to beg off. Knee to the shin by Brisco but as he's attacking, Flair sneaks an inside cradle to get the three count. Man, we've seen Brisco take a lot of pins so far! This must have had significant clipping or else it was a short match, so no rating. It was an interesting dynamic with both guys going for the figure-four and both guys having injured legs by the end of the match. Again, Brisco looked excellent here. His selling is great. He has those deep armdrags which talks to my Steamboat point. Flair worked this in massively chickenshit mode, which is a little surprising in St. Louis. Jack Brisco vs Terry Gordy (11/03/80) This is from GCW with Solie on commentary for the National Title. Looks like these two had two singles matches, and I'm guessing this one is from Augusta, GA rather than Rome, GA. Picture quality is very poor here. Gordy rushes Brisco to start. "Michelle" Hayes joins in stomping. And all three Freebirds triple team Brisco now. Three on one beatdown. Various faces hit the ring to clear house. Brisco is hurt. Looks like there is no actual match beyond the beatdown. Typical Georgia TV. Jack Brisco vs The Mongolian Stomper [12/12/80) Brisco again defending his National Title. Stomper works on Brisco's neck with blows and nerve holds. Stomper's manager, Don Carson, is outside the ring distracting the ref. Brisco takes over on offense working the arm and hits a powerslam. Brisco goes for the figurefour, but Carson is on the apron which distracts Brisco ... Stomper pins him to take the title in an upset. Man, in I don't know how many matches I haven't seen Dory Funk Jr take ONE pin, and here Brisco is taking pinfalls left and right! Jack Brisco vs "Wild" Bill Irwin (1981) This is from Tampa, FL but can't find a date. Solie tells us that Brisco is the master of the fireman carry takedown and just as he does, as if on cue, Brisco executes one. Solie says that he learned the figure-four from Eddie Graham. Headlock by Brisco into a hammerlock. Grapevine. Wristlock into a lateral press. Irwin gets some knees in. Clothesline. Brisco fires back with some strikes. Butterfly suplex for three. Note: this is different from the Irwin squash I reviewed previously in this thread. That'll do for now.

I'm just wondering how Murdoch's stuff in Japan is demonstrably better (as in HoF worthy) than ... let's say Ted DiBiase's. I mean Ted had a run with that UN title and his matches with Tenryu are comparable to Murdoch's with Jumbo. On paper, Ted's runs in Japan look pretty good. He's in there with top opposition, he's holding titles, he's headlining cards in the tag matches. I'm just wondering what puts Murdoch over the top of a guy like Ted when it comes to either NJPW or AJPW.

Kris, I guess my point is we're talking Hall of Fame here so these margins count. Do you really put Murdoch's runs in Florida and McGuirk / Mid-South up against Ivan's in WWF, Mid-Atlantic, GCW and Florida? Are they really equivalent? This is without going into AWA, IWA, WWA, Montreal, Quebec, etc. etc. I don't really see how Murdoch is stacking against Ivan in any way. This is just as one basis of comparison, I'm sure Dylan can pull up Patera who has similar sorts of runs to Ivan to his name. ------ I suppose the question is: how much does Murdoch's candidacy depend on his stuff in Japan? And to what extent was he a top top name and draw there?

I think you're slightly over-selling Murdoch and under-selling Ivan, Kris. As far as I can see, in the major US territories, Ivan was consistently given top titles and put into main event feuds, whereas Murdoch always seems to be that semi-main or upper midcard guy. In other words, Ivan was a "top" guy, Murdoch was someone who could fill out a card. Let's just say from the off that Ivan's run in (W)WWF destroys Murdoch's (world title, multiple MSG sell outs vs. Bruno and others), but Murdoch is the bigger star in Japan. Let's take that as read. Although I will note in passing that in 1971 during the JWA tour, Ivan had quite a few matches with Inoki and Baba both in tags and singles. Let's also take out right away Canada, where Ivan was clearly and demonstrably the bigger star. In the late 60s, he worked feuds with the Rogeaus in Quebec and Montreal and won the International Title up there. Before he ever arrived in WWWF, Ivan was a pretty big star. I think you can say that Ivan's Canadian stuff is more significant than whatever Murdoch was doing in Amarillo or elsewhere early in his career. IF you were being very kind to Murdoch, you might put his Mid-South plus his St. Louis stuff against Ivan's Canadian stuff, but I still think Ivan edges that. So that brings us down to the major US territories. It's safe to say that the top promotions of the period were: AWA Florida Mid-Atlantic Georgia Ivan had good runs in all four places, and I think -- based on results and card positioning -- he was booked stronger than Murdoch in all four places. I'll just give you Ivan's stuff mostly, you heard most of what Murdoch did on the podcast. AWA: So AWA was a tough nut to crack for a lot of guys, because Verne has his crew. But Ivan was booked stronger than Murdoch. Like Murdoch, he worked guys like Don Muraco and Billy Robinson in the midcard or upper-midcard, in tags and singles. But as far as I can see, he has this over Murdoch: (1972 run) 02/27 Green Bay, WI Ivan Koloff beat Mad Dog Vachon 03/18 St. Paul, MN Ivan Koloff no contest with Verne Gagne 04/16 Milwaukee, WI Ivan Koloff beat Bill Watts 04/26 Fargo, ND Ivan Koloff beat The Crusher 04/28 Denver, CO Ivan Koloff beat The Crusher 04/29 St. Paul, MN Verne Gagne beat Ivan Koloff by countout in a 2 of 3 falls match 05/06 Chicago, IL Ivan Koloff beat Wilbur Snyder 05/09 Fargo, ND Ivan Koloff draw The Crusher 05/12 Rockford, IL Ivan Koloff draw The Crusher 05/20 Chicago, IL Ivan Koloff no contest with Verne Gagne 12/28 Moorhead, MN Ivan Koloff draw Nick Bockwinkel Verne Gagne, Bill Watts, The Crusher, Maddog Vachon, Nick Bockwinkel -- these weren't chumps that Ivan was facing in AWA, and he was working broadways with them, and sometimes getting wins. Do you know who else was around in AWA in 1972? Dick Murdoch. And he was facing guys like Billy Red Cloud and Angelo Mosca. The point is that in the AWA, while Ivan was never really a big guy there, he was thought of as a big enough name and a creditable enough opponent to go up against their top guys. Murodch doesn't seem to have that in his resume. Florida: On the podcast, much was made of Murdoch being a big name in Florida. He held their top title once for a month in 1971 and had two tag title runs -- once with Dusty in 1970, and once more with Bobby Duncum in 1971. Ivan doesn't seem to have worked Florida until 1977, but he's immediately brought in as a top guy. (1977) 04/09 St. Petersburg, FL Ivan Koloff beat The Assassin 04/11 West Palm Beach, FL The Assassin beat Ivan Koloff by DQ 04/12 Tampa, FL Ivan Koloff beat The Assassin 04/13 Miami, FL Ivan Koloff beat Haystacks Calhoun 04/26 Tampa, FL Ivan Koloff beat The Assassin 05/03 Tampa, FL Ivan Koloff beat Dusty Rhodes 05/04 Fort Myers, FL Ivan Koloff beat Steve Keirn 05/06 St. Louis, MO Jack Brsico beat Ivan Koloff 05/07 St. Louis, MO(TV) Ivan Koloff beat Randy Brewer 05/10 Tampa, FL Dusty Rhodes & Ernie Ladd beat Ivan Koloff & Ox Baker 05/11 Miami, FL Ernie Ladd beat Ivan Koloff by DQ 05/17 Tampa, FL Dusty Rhodes, Eddie & Mike Graham beat Ivan Koloff, Ox Baker & Buddy Wolff 05/18 Miami, FL Dusty Rhodes & Ernie Ladd beat Ivan Koloff & Buddy Wolff 05/24 Tampa, FL Ivan Koloff beat Steve Keirn to win NWA(Florida) Southern Title Within a month he wins the Florida title. Again, look at some of his opponents: Dusty Rhodes, Jack Brisco, Ernie Ladd, The Assassin. Again, these aren't chumps, by 77 most of them were legends in Florida. But it doesn't end there: 06/20 West Palm Beach, FL Ivan Koloff & Pat Patterson beat Jack & Jerry Brisco to win NWA Florida Tag Title A month later -- 2 days after winning Dick the Bruiser's WWA World Title -- him and Patterson beat the Briscos for the tag titles two. So at this point in June 1977, Ivan is WWA World Champ, Florida Heavyweight Champ, and Florida Tag Champ. The titles don't mean anything in themselves, but it's card positioning. How was the guy perceived by promoters. It's being put in positions to draw against top faces. Ivan actually sticks around Florida for the next year during which with Pat Patterson and then with Mr. Saito and later Nikolai Volkoff for a bit in 1980 he notches up 5 tag title runs, feuding with The Brisco Brothers and Steve Keirn/Mike Graham. Again, anyone working feuds with Jack Brisco in Florida is being positioned as a significant star. After that was done, after another run vs. Backlund in New York he heads to ... Georgia: First match there? 01/19 Atlanta, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson beat Jack & Jerry Brisco to win NWA Georgia Tag Title So basically Ivan takes the feud with the Briscos to Georgia where he's immediately paired with Ole Anderson. Again, consider the politics of the Georgia office here, look at the other names involved, and see where Ivan was positioned. Ole Anderson's partner, in Georgia feuding with the Briscos. 01/26 Atlanta, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson beat Jack Brisco & Mr. Wrestling II Over Wrestling II. In Georgia. After this Ole and Ivan start a feud with Tommy Rich and Wahoo McDaniel where they trade the titles back and forth. Again, look at the names, think about the promotion. (1979) 07/11 Columbus, GA Ivan Koloff & Killer Karl Kox vs. Ray Candy & Stan Hansen 07/13 Atlanta, GA Dusty Rhdoes & Wahoo McDaniel beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson in a no DQ, no time limit match 07/14 Atlanta, GA(TV) Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson beat Jerry Stubbs & Chick Donovan 07/15 Marietta, GA Ivan Koloff beat Wahoo McDaniel 07/17 Macon, GA Ivan Koloff beat Wahoo McDaneil in a Russian chain match 07/18 Columbus, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson vs. Stan Hansen & Tommy Rich 07/20 Atlanta, GA Dusty Rhodes & Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson in a lights out match 07/21 Atlanta, GA(TV) Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson beat Jerry Stubbs & Chick Donovan 07/23 Augusta, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson double DQ Stan Hansen & Tommy Rich 07/24 Macon, GA Wahoo McDaneill & Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson by DQ 07/25 Columbus, GA Ivan Koloff vs. Stan Hansenin a bunkhouse match 07/26 Rome, GA Ivan Koloff & Killer KarlKox vs. Bob Armstrong & Ray Candy 07/27 Atlanta, GA Dusty Rhodes & Mr. Wrestling II beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson 07/30 Augusta, GA Stan Hansen & Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson in a cage match 07/31 Macon, GA Wahoo McDaniel & Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson in a cole miner’s glove match 08/01 Columbus, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson vs. Tony Atlas & Ray Candy 08/03 Atlanta, GA Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff in a street fight match 08/05 Marietta, GA Bob Armstrong & Tommy Rich beat Ivan Koloff & Killer Karl Kox 08/06 Augusta, GA Stan Hansen & Tony Atlas beat Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson 08/07 Macon, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson vs. Stan Hansen & Tommy Rich in a lumberjack match 08/08 Columbus, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson vs. Tony Atlas & Ray Candy 08/10 Atlanta, GA Ivan Koloff & Ole Anderson draw Dusty Rhodes & Bill Watts Ivan would hold the Georgia tag titles 5 time with Ole from 78 to 79 and then twice more with Alexis Smirnoff form 79 to 80. From the TV I've seen, as late as 1983 Ivan was positioned in feuds with the top faces (Paul Orndorff, Tommy Rich, Butch Reed) and in league with the other top heels (Ole Anderson, Buzz Sawyer). He seems to have been a bigger star than Murodch in GCW by some distance. Mid-Atlantic: Ivan was also a pretty big star in Mid-Atlantic and had a very long association with JCP going back to 1974. What sort of stuff was he upto in 74 there? He was paired with Crockett tag legend Rip Hawk and soon after won the MACW TV title: 05/10 Richmond, VA Ivan Koloff beat Danny Miller to win NWA Mid Atlantic Television Title Quickly into a feud with Mid-Atlantic mainstay Paul Jones now over said TV title ... 07/08 Charlotte, NC Paul Jones beat Ivan Koloff to win NWA Mid Atlantic Television Title in a title vs. hair, Texas death match Hold on! Ivan hasn't got any hair! Anyway, that feud rages on all year. Russian Chain matches, lumberjack matches, you name it. While this wasn't look like the top feud in Mid-Atantic that year (Valentine vs. Wahoo was), being put into a feud with Paul Jones is surely a drawing position. I'd imagine Jones vs. Koloff over the TV title was used to headline a lot of shows in the secondary towns. Mid-Atlantic Gateway is a wonderful resource and it has month-by-month write ups for 1974: http://www.midatlanticgateway.com/Almanac/almanac_index.htm Clearly the top star is Johnny Valentine, but it's also clear that Paul Jones is being pushed big as a the #2 guy in the promotion. He feuded with Ivan for almost the entire year. But that's not all for Ivan in Crockett land. (1981) 02/22 Greensboro, NC Ivan Koloff & Ray Stevens beat Paul Jones & Masked Superstar to win NWA World Tag Title They drop it back a month later then ... 04/16 Norfolk, VA Ivan Koloff beat Ricky Steamboat to win NWA Mid Atlantic Title So Ivan comes in and straight away get a run with the tag titles and then goes over Steamboat -- a top top star in Mid-Atlantic -- for their title. What sort of other people does he face? 05/21 Sumter, SC Ivan Koloff vs. Ric Flair 05/22 Richmond, VA Ric Flair beat Ivan Koloff by DQ 05/23 Greensboro, NC Ivan Koloff beat Mr. Wrestling II 05/24 Roanoke, VA Ric Flair & Wahoo McDaniel beat Ivan Koloff & Iron Sheik 05/24 Hampton, VA Ivan Koloff beat Masked Superstar 05/30 Greenville, SC Ivan Koloff double countout with Mr. Wrestling II 05/31 Savannah, GA Ivan Koloff & Roddy Piper vs. Ric Flair & Masked Superstar 05/31 Asheville, NC Ivan Koloff & Roddy Piper vs. Ric Flair & Wahoo McDaniel 06/01 Fayetteville, NC Ivan Koloff & Roddy Piper vs. Wahoo McDaniel & Ric Flair Steamboat, Flair, Piper, Wahoo, Masked Superstar -- again, consider the names, consider the promotion. These are hardly midcard actions in 1981 Mid-Atlantic. Let me stop there. We need not get into Ivan's later career with the tag belts in JCP, but I think it's inarguable that the Russians run smokes the Murdoch and Adonis run and then some. ----------- A brief word on WWA. Ivan was put in drawing positions against Dick the Bruiser in Indianapolis and Chicago. The fact he was given their world title in 1977 and he went over Dick the Bruiser himself in his own back yard, must have meant that they saw him as someone who could draw against the legends of that region. Also a brief word on the IWA outlaw promotion from 1975. Though this was short lived, Ivan again was positioned on top of the card and worked with Mil Mascaras. The New Jersey show at Roosevelt Stadium from 07/10/75 drew 13,000. Want to see the rest of the card? 07/10/1975 International Wrestling Alliance - Jersey City, NJ - Roosevelt Stadium (13,000) Gino Brito & Dino Brave vs Rip Hawk & Bruce Swayze (cancelled?) Barbara Owens & Estelle Morino def Maria DeLeone & Daisy Mae Sky Low Low def Little Boy Blue Nelson Royal def Joe Turco Kurt von Hess def Dick Steinborn Miguel Perez & Carlos Colon drew Hartford Love & Reginald Love Tex McKenzie (DQ) Eric the Red Ernie Ladd (DQ) Bob Ellis IWA International Tag Team Title: Geto Mongol & Bolo Mongol* def Vittorio Apollo & Luis Martinez IWA North American Heavyweight Title: Bulldog Brower* (NC) Mighty Igor IWA International Heavyweight Title: Mil Mascaras* (1-1, DCOR in 3rd) Ivan Koloff The point is, that after Mascaras and Ivan, the next biggest name is Bulldog Brower. Does Dick Murdoch have any shows like this to his name? ------------ So in a landscape where the top promotions were WWF, MACW, GCW and Florida, Ivan was a major star in all four places. Murdoch was arguably only a significant star in one of them. Murdoch doesn't have anything like the IWA or WWA runs to his name. Ivan was positioned higher on the card in AWA too. If Murdoch was a bigger star in St. Louis, Ivan was a bigger star in Chicago, Indianapolis and Minneapolis. I wanted to do this because I've heard several people like Joe from VoW and here again that Murdoch and Ivan are comparable as territorial stars and I really don't see it. I look forward to the replies.

Enjoyed this lads. Sort of show that feels like it was made just for me.

So much learning on this. Great that Matt Farmer is doing podcasts

I'm 90 in and I'm still not tell buying the argument. I don't believe his US stuff as a draw or main eventer is on par with Ivan Koloff's for example. But rather than just say that I'm going to take some time to do a detailed comparison territory by territory.

It's only a theory at this point, the main counter would be that he tagged with Stevens who helped "invent" the big bumping style of the 80s pioneered by Flair. Bock certainly bumped his ass off in that Funks tag.

I don't see it for Wrestling II from what we have available. I see him as a gimmick wrestler whose gimmick is basically "excitable and plucky southern guy in a mask". From what I understand he was scarcely even mid-card before he donned the mask.

I don't think I've aired my small hypothesis yet on the forum that there's a chance Bock was better in the 80s than in the 70s because he changed up his style. I need to see more 70s Bock to back up this little theory, but I think he adapted himself to work the style of the day and of the environment. Before the AWA set dropped, I recall people saying that, aside from the Billy Robinson match, they often found Bock boring in Japan. Anyway, I have amassed quite a bit of 70s Bock from all over the place, as well as 80s Bock in fairly obscure places like Hawaii. He'll be part of my ongoing "Those 70s Guys" mini-project. Currently that consists of: - Dory [found a lot of stuff] - Brisco [got everything available] - Race [got everything available] - Flair in the 70s [got mostly everything from around 77-80 and bits and bobs from before] - Bockwinkel in the 70s [found a lot of stuff] The WoS guys will be considered on their own. Billy Robinson seems like he'll keep cropping up against the other guys. Ditto Inoki and Baba. If anyone has any other people who they think should be priorities for the 70s, let me know and I'll see what time I can give them.

Glad to see Ivan Koloff getting so many votes.

See, this is one of three key problems that Dory faces: 1. He can put on an amazing psychotic performance like that and STILL he gets overshadowed by Terry. 2. The focus is often on the 80s, and for some even 90s, rather than the 70s. 3. Negative campaigning from one Goodhelmet driven by hatred and prejudice. For what it's worth I'd probably give Sheik MVP for that match. I guess anyone who watched the 78 Abby-Sheik vs. Funks match should also watch the 79 one, which most people (well, pretty much everyone except me) see as the best in the series. This has been a good initiative Dylan.

The Japanese Linda Curry ... Thanks for all this by the way. I'm trying to figure out who the guy is that I associate with most of the 80s AJPW stuff. I think it must be Kuramochi but it's entirely possible that it switched to Wakabayashi without me noticing. The switch to Fukuzawa in 1990 threw me off a bit, just so unexpected. Reading those comments, seems like he might be the Japanese equivalent of David Crockett. Of course, naturally, this means that while smart fans might hate him, he is in fact totally awesome. Question: I thought the guy with the low deep voice on a lot of broadcasts was Giant Baba, is this not the case?

El Borica, don't want to make a lot of work for you, but would really appreciate an intro guide in the GWA section along the lines of the Joshi or WoS ones. Personally, I'm massively looking forward to watching the PR stuff.

Looks like we watched 7 matches of his total on PPVs and Clashes, but then he only has 7 other TV matches in the run anyway, five quick squashes vs. jobbers and two sub-5-minute losses in 6-mans vs. Road Warriors and Steve Williams. So you might say we watched 50% of everything available on tape

Pete, that was Samu and Fatu, not Fatu and Samoan Savage. Samoan Savage comes in as the third wheel some time in 89 working some singles, and then for some reason Samu leaves and Samoan Savage starts tagging with Fatu. Looking down our Billy Graham worst worker list (see here), he got it at Clash 10 (singles match vs. Steve Williams) and and at Capital Combat (vs. Tommy Rich and Mike Rotunda). He was really shitty for the whole run though.

What you mean like putting them in PPV matches with people like The Midnight Express, The Steiners, and Doom? Seriously, the SST are really awful after Samoan Savage replaces Samu.

Does he just fall off a cliff?

How good was Andre during the rest of that tour? I've not got to 82 in my NJPW viewing yet. I really liked him in 81, not just in the Hansen match but in the tag with Goulet as well against Inoki / Fujinami. Andre is a really tough one though because arguably, unlike Henry, he never got a top dog push *really* until he was basically done (87 onwards). Andre being booked as a special attraction meant that his career was an endless loop of battle royals, handicap tags against Johnny Rodz and co., semi-comedy matches, six-man tags, and so on. I will say that the matches he had with Hogan in 1980 were really disappointing. But how many feuds and main event angles did Andre actually work? Since him just being on the card would be enough to pop the gate, he didn't really need to be in a feature matchup.