JerryvonKramer

I'm saying that in January 88 Honky vs. Savage was a built feud, Jake was hot, DiBiase was hot, Bam Bam was being pushed, Hart Foundation were being pushed (in tag division), Strike Force were featured. I can't see any argument to say Jake or DiBiase weren't pushed on TV in that timeframe because they were. Bam Bam was brought in for a face run, we know it was short lived, but in Jan 88 he was being pushed. Hart Foundation and Strike Force were both on TV. The "momentum" argument about the Bulldogs and Demolition is that they were quietly being kept strong enough to be viable contenders for the tag titles. This isn't about viewing cards in a vacuum or picking out "big names", this is viewing cards in context with an eye on who was featured, who had screentime and who was hot. I don't think you can make the argument that Ted vs. Jake on a houseshow in January 88 is the equivalent of a "meaningless" thrown together Muraco vs. Orndorff match in 86. It wasn't. Both guys were hot and super over. I don't think they would have run shows with that match on top if they didn't think people were going to turn up for it. I'm saying they are "loaded" exactly by the terms outlined for JCP's "loaded" cards from 86 that we talked about earlier. It is applying principles derived from the earlier conversation to cards put on by WWF in 1988 at a time when (I'm arguing) WWF were adding meaning to their depth. I've argued that they started doing this more in 88 and that by 90-92 they were really good at it. I've argued that the charge of "meaningless depth" no longer applies after 87. I don't think this is a very difficult argument to grasp, even if I can understand confusion with the earlier argument. I've done my best to clarify that. It's clear no one is going to budge from what they think here, so why not leave it at that.

I think he definitely would Matt, I'm just thinking more about WWE execs thinking the youths in the crowd would care more about Foley than Bruno. I could be wrong and hope I am, but how many current WWE fans even know who Bruno is?

Will they give Bruno the big "main induction" treatment do you think?

I don't believe there is any connection between that brief 88 house show run with Jake and Ted and the later feud in 89, which I assumed everyone would know about. I believe that kicked off at Mania V when Andre was fueding with Jake and DiBiase sneaks in and tries steal Damian (this could be an isolated one off incident, but it's the first on-screen interaction I know about -- aside from the Spectrum match mentioned above). They slow burned that fued all the way until Mania VI which is the blow off. Jake's promos during it are electric, I think it's one of the hottest feuds of that time frame. The 88 run was probably a "try out" to see if those two could work together and draw ok. Vince famously used house shows to do that sort of thing. If there are any Jake on Ted or Ted on Jake promos from 88 I've never seen them.

My original point was that WWF had depth and JCP cards were thin. We argued. We analysed. We went back and forth. I agreed to the concept of "meaningless depth". I agreed that JCP did more with less in 86. I agreed that WWF had meaningless depth in 86, with some lingering reservations. As far as I'm concerned that argument ended there. My second point, from yesterday or the day before, has been that from 88 onwards WWF built "meaning" into their roster more and more and that the charge of "meaningless depth" no longer stands for the 88-92 period. And that Hogan, while obviously the ace and chief drawing card, was gradually surrounded by stars in their own right who could draw shows on their own. This has been my argument in the past couple of days. Just to be clear.

So what portion of 10,000 fans at the Spectrum are you giving to the WWF name and what portion are you giving to the card? How about that Quebec show? I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, but it's also a convenient way for you to downplay the importance of WWF cards, feuds and so on. Also, let me quote something back at you that I said earlier: I'm going to quote the first bit again in case anyone missed it. Looking at January 88 is, by my own argument, to look at a time when they were transitioning to a different way of booking (and there IS more meaning to the depth there than in 86). Am I going to be made to do the same thing in the cards leading up to and including Wrestlemania VI? Do I need to spell out all of the drawing feuds they ran in 89 and 90 and 91? Seems like it's going that way. Did they run shows with those matches on top? Did fans pay and turn up to see those shows? Well? If it's "yes" then they are doing something right. Maybe they didn't turn up to see Jake vs. Ted because of a feud but because they were Jake fans who had seen this bastard kicking kids out of a swimming pool last week. "Hot feud" is not the only reason that puts asses in seats. It's a very strong one, but not the only one. Ted vs. Jake in Jan 88 isn't Muraco vs. Orndorff in 86. Both were hot. Sometimes it might be as simple as putting two hot guys in a match. People will turn up. If that didn't happen then why keep running it on top? Same with the other examples.

Valiant vs. Jones is more meaningful than a Jake vs. DiBiase match or a Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation match or a Valentine vs. Beefcake match or a Honky vs. Savage match in January 88 now? It this what you're telling me? Those matches weren't drawing? What's that 10,000+ Spectrum card without Hogan on it then? When did JCP ever draw 10,000 without Flair? Shit, when did they ever do it WITH Flair? To deny that seems awfully partisan. I'm just waiting for the moment when you tell me "oh it wasn't the booking, feuds, or wrestlers they paid to see there, it was the WWF name". Don't pull that line please. Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Martin and Kai wasn't drawing any money, but it was a lower card match with a feud. I never denied that Hogan was the engine room, I'm just saying there are more pieces to the puzzle and it's blind to ignore them. If they had no faith in the rest of the roster, they wouldn't have run so many non-Hogan shows.

Here's the story John's LA cards aren't telling you: WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988 Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification No Hogan. DiBiase being pushed. Honkey during long IC run drawing heat in meaningful feud with recently turned Savage. Think Strike Force / Hart Foundation was a feud. WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - January 2, 1988 Lanny Poffo pinned Barry Horowitz at 12:45 B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated the Conquistadors at 12:23 when Blair scored the pin with a roll up after a dropkick from Brunzell Jim Duggan fought Rick Rude to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Duggan has Rude covered Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana via disqualification when Santana hit Bret with Jimmy Hart's megaphone WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the One Man Gang at 12:16 after a slam and the legdrop The Jumping Bomb Angels defeated WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri & Rockin' Robin at 13:58 when Robin was pinned after a double clothesline Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification at 6:16 after Savage rammed Honky and Jimmy Hart's heads together With Hogan this time. Beefcake / Valentine former tag partners. Savage/Honky again. Strike Force / Hart Foundation. WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - January 2, 1988 Dino Bravo pinned SD Jones Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis via disqualification Ken Patera & Billy Jack Haynes defeated Demolition via disqualification Don Muraco pinned Butch Reed The Islanders defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Ted Dibiase pinned Jake Roberts Hercules fought Koko B. Ware to a draw Bam Bam Bigelow pinned King Kong Bundy Same night, different town. Bam Bam and DiBiase both being pushed here. Ted/Jake was a match with two characters people cared about who were both over. No Hogan. WWF @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - January 3, 1988 Koko B. Ware vs. Steve Lombardi Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. the Islanders The Jumping Bomb Angels vs. WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai Jake Roberts vs. Ted Dibiase Jake vs. Ted on top here. Jumping Bomb Angels were fueding with Martin and Kai. Young Stallions vs. Islanders is not a bad lower card match. No Hogan. WWF @ Springfield, MA - Civic Center - January 3, 1988 (1,900) SD Jones pinned Steve Lombardi Ron Bass pinned the Junkyard Dog Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov Danny Davis pinned Sam Houston The One Man Gang pinned Jake Roberts Butch Reed pinned Don Muraco after hitting him with a foreign object Demolition defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau Ted Dibiase fought Bam Bam Bigelow to a double disqualification Jim Duggan pinned Hercules Same night, guessing the Poughkeepsie show was a matinee. Duggan was being pushed here and would face Herc a few times over this period before and after the Royal Rumble win. DiBiase vs. Bam Bam is a strongish match as both are being pushed. Demolition vs. Rougeaus and Jake vs. OMG -- not bad at all if even there aren't any explicit feuds there. These aren't "meaningless" they are building momentum for those going over so that when they eventually meet at a big show or in title matches, it means something. Same is true of Bulldogs vs. Bolsheviks, momentum. Kinda shocked to see Ron Bass pinning JYD in early 88, but there we go. No Hogan. WWF @ Montrael, Quebec - Forum - January 4, 1988 Sam Houston pinned Danny Davis WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels Jim Duggan defeated King Harley Race Koko B. Ware defeated Gino Brito Jr. Dino Bravo defeated Don Muraco Demolition defeated Billy Jack Haynes & Ken Patera Ted Dibiase defeated Jake Roberts WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated the Islanders No Hogan. Up in Canada now, Rougeaus the local boys going over Islanders is perfectly logical on top. More wins for Demolition. Duggan and Race started a feud around this time. Ted vs. Jake - hot heel vs. hot face. Honky / Savage feud again. Bravo going over Muraco giving the locals something else to cheer about mid-way through the card. Bomb Angels vs. Martin/Kai feud. DiBiase and Roberts must have been fucking knackered going to bed on January 4th! WWF @ Augusta, GA - Civic Center - January 4, 1988 Brady Boone defeated Iron Mike Sharpe WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors Butch Reed defeated George Steele WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine with a roll up Bam Bam Bigelow defeated the One Man Gang Rick Rude defeated Paul Orndorff Same night, different town and down in Crockett country no less. Another win for Bulldogs. Can we say Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation was a feud? Beefcake / Valentine again. Bam Bam - pushed face vs. OMG - semi-pushed heel. Rude vs. Orndorff not the strongest main event for early 88, but Orndorff had historical issues with Heenan -- for a "B" show this is not a bad card at all is it? WWF @ Staten Island, NY - Monsignor Farrell High School - January 4, 1988 Dan Spivey pinned Scott Casey Sika pinned Lanny Poffo Ron Bass defeated Outback Jack The Ultimate Warrior defeated Steve Lombardi Hercules defeated the Junkyard Dog Paul Roma & Jim Powers defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov via disqualification THIRD card on the same night now. Momentum for Warrior, Bass, Herc and the Young Stallions. Obviously this is a "C" show. I'll skip the TV mega-tapings. WWF @ Wildwood, NJ - Convention Hall - January 9, 1988 Outback Jack vs. George Skaaland David Sammartino vs. Johnny V Scott Casey vs. Danny Spivey Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. Barry Horowitz & Steve Lombardi The Junkyard Dog vs. Hercules B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell vs. Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov "C" show fodder, but they still ran it. WWF @ Allentown, PA - Agricultural Hall - January 9, 1988 (matinee) Postponned from Jan. 7 due to inclement weather in Atlanta and Nashville Included the Junkyard Dog, Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid, a women's tag team match, and a 20-man battle royal Another show. WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 9, 1988 (matinee) (10,083) Televised on the PRISM Network - included Dick Graham & Craig DeGeorge on commentary Prime Time Wrestling - 2/19/88: Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) pinned SD Jones with the side suplex at 8:19 The Ultimate Warrior (sub. for Paul Orndorff) fought Rick Rude to a double count-out at 16:25 when both men began brawling on the floor Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Brutus Beefcake at 11:06 when Hart grabbed Beefcake's leg as he attempted to suplex Valentine into the ring, with Valentine falling on top and Hart holding the leg down during the cover WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Lelani Kai (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels at 15:34 when Martin pinned Noriyo Tateno with a front suplex WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) in a steel cage match at 9:13 by escaping out the door as Hart helped pull him out; after the match, Savage brought the champion and Hart back inside the cage and hit the flying elbowsmash on Honky Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors at 8:07 when Dynamite scored the pin with a diving headbutt after being thrown by Smith Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) pinned Jake Roberts at 8:33 with a roll up and grabbing the tights for leverage following a knee to the back as Roberts was distracted by Virgil on the floor; after the match, Roberts attacked Dibiase and attempted to throw Damien on him after Dibiase became tied in the ring ropes; moments later, Virgil came up behind Roberts and Roberts threw Damien on him instead WWF Tag Team Champions Tito Santana & Rick Martel defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification at 11:01 after Bret hit Martel with Jimmy's megaphone as Martel had the Boston Crab applied on Neidhart Same day, ANOTHER show. Warrior's build continues. Valentine / Beefcake. Bomb Angels vs. Martin and Kai. Honky / Savage. Another win for Bulldogs. Ted/Jake again. Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation again. WWF @ Scranton, PA - CYC - January 9, 1988 Included Randy Savage and Demolition Same day, different town (A FOURTH TOWN), different people on top. WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - January 9, 1988 (13,903) Televised on NESN - included Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary: Iron Mike Sharpe pinned SD Jones at 8:22 after hitting him in the head with his forearm support Prime Time Wrestling - 1/18/88: Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) pinned Jerry Allen at 3:36 with the side suplex; early in the bout, Bobby Heenan left the broadcast table and went backstage after Gorilla Monsoon questioned him about the whereabouts of Matilda Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors when Dynamite scored the pin at 13:55 after the press slam / diving headbutt combo; before the bout, Bobby Heenan left ringside after being threatened by the Bulldogs Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) pinned Jake Roberts with a roll up and holding the tights for leverage at 10:58 after Roberts attacked an interfering Virgil; after the bout, Dibiase became caught in the ropes and Roberts was about to put Damien on him before Virgil pulled Dibiase from the ring; prior to the bout, Bobby Heenan returned to the commentary table WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels at 10:56 when Kai scored the pin following a front suplex from Martin behind the referee's back WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Rick Rude (w/ Bobby Heenan) with the legdrop at 11:40 after Rude thought he had won the match with the backbreaker submission hold; after the bout, the champion was attacked and bloodied by Ted Dibiase; Jimmy Hart provided commentary for the bout alongside Gorilla Monsoon (Best of the WWF Vol. 20, Hulk Hogan: The Unreleased Archives) Greg Valentine defeated Brutus Beefcake via count-out WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification when Neidhart hit Santana with Jimmy Hart's megaphone A FIFTH show on January 9th now. This time we get Hogan. Another win for Bulldogs. Ted/Jake again. Angels vs. Matin/Kai again. Hogan vs. Rude (part of Hogan vs. Andre / Heenan Family feud, DiBiase getting involved). Valentine / Beefcake again. Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation again. ---------- I'm less than 2 weeks in and it's already clear to see that what you are saying isn't true.

If you follow the logic through, that is what is happening when we get to 88, 89, 90, 91, 92. It is an implied by the argument being made. You're asking me on the one hand to give credit to JCP for its non-main event feuds, while asking me to ignore the dozens upon dozens of non-Hogan feuds that went on in WWF between 88 and 92. I haven't seen a single person yet even admit there was a change in the booking from the 84-6 period, let alone that WWF had meaningful feuds up and down the card in 88-92. Disappointing to see this level of dogma at play.

Well, that appears to not be the case when looking at *cards*. To the degree that I wonder if you even bother to check it before writing it. :/ Did the WWF have 10 to 15 to 20 "storylines" going on at one time? I suspect that if we chart out the entire year of 1988, we'll find points of overlap where they have quite a few going on. What people are trying to tell you is the JCP also did in 1986, 1987, 1988, etc. If you go back to my earlier long post breaking down JCP at the time of the 1986 Bash, you'll find that they had a *ton* going on at that time. Flair alone was juggling multiple challengers through those big cards. The R'nR were feuding with both the MX and the Andersons, while Ricky remained an occasional challenger to Flair off their feud in the Spring. The MX were feuding with both the R'nR and Dusty & Maggie, with Baby Doll thrown in. They even had a side issue with the Road Warriors for the NWA WTT. The Roadies had a feud with the Russians and the Horsemen, and that side one with the MX. Nikita had his feud with Maggie, but also was drawn into the long Roadies vs Russians feud. I'm willing to bet that if we just focus on that one series that lasted little over a month, we'd find close to 20 different storylines that would be known to all of the fans who might go to shows. A lot of those 20 would have been given significant build on TV... even something that people think is as silly as Boogie vs Paul Jones' Army. John Do you really want me to list all the legion non-Hogan related feuds that took place from 88 to 92? It would make an impressive visual because there are a lot of them. Really though, is it worth the effort of listing all those fueds? Will anything happen other than you quoting random or handpicked LA cards back at me and sticking to a rather dogmatic line that WWF was Hogan and nothing else and that's the way things were from 84 to 92? I don't want to take an hour of my time typing out dozens of feuds only for them to be ignored. The point is that -- using the very terms set out by this thread -- WWF DID have meaningful stuff going on lower down the card. And quite a lot of it. For JCP, that stuff matters, it's meant to show how well booked the promotion was, how they did more with less etc. For WWF, it's just Hogan pre-show. That's the argument I'm getting from you guys now and it's not adding up. One rule for JCP, another for WWF.

jdw, give me one good reason to respond to those posts when, as far as I can see, you've made no real attempt to engage with the argument I actually made.

The divide Loss is that from 88 onwards, they had what we in this thread have called "meaningful depth". That means they not only had Hogan on top but well-booked feuds at every tier: main event, upper midcard, IC, tag team, lower card. That's what this thread has been talking about right? Meaningful feuds? Using the talent on the roster to do things fans care about? I think there is a very clear point when Vince and co dropped all the jobbery shite you saw at Mania II and dropped, in the main, "meaningless" Muraco vs. Orndorff type matches and had every match at most of his PPVs built by feuds. This starts to happen in 88. By 90, 91, 92 they had it down to a fine art. The dividing line is not arbitrary, it's a change of booking patterns and a slight change in emphasis. They were giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2.

One more thing ... What so in the same thread I'm told Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones was something people really gave a shit about I'm also meant to write off the New Age Outlaws? Actually fuck the New Age Outlaws, I'm meant to write off every major 80s WWF star not called Hogan or Savage as being worth nothing to their promotion? I don't see how this logic is meant to work. I think you are talking about a phase of WWF (84-87) which evolved into something else (88-92ish) before the slump, steroids and all the rest of it.

So what you're saying is that 88, 89, 90 and 91 is basically the same scenario as 85 and 86? I'm not sure if I buy that. WWF had feuds up and down the card for most of that time. Some of those feuds were pretty hot too. The booking in general is sensational for most of that time, up and down the card. Hogan's "Austin" run is 84-7. Are you arguing that it was actually 84-91? That all of that is WWF just milking one cash cow? I think that's reductive and missing a few things that are blindingly obvious. And I think it's selling both the booking and the rest of roster short by some distance. EDIT: To bring it back to the sports analogy, if in 85 it's one big star way way above everyone else, I think by 88-91 it's one big star, still clearly the biggest star, but he's in an all-star team now.

Hogan was the foundation, the root, the major building block, sure. And yes the biggest draw and the ace. That doesn't mean Vince didn't create some flowers and add other building blocks and develop that foundation into something that might not be so dependent on Hogan. Sure, Vince makes mistakes (Warrior) and has moments of weakness (Mania 9), but there was a clear strategy on his part to make the promotion much less dependent on Hogan and Hogan only from 88 onwards.

One thing more: I also think that the general idea -- very popular on this board -- that WWF's 80s success was just everyone riding on Hogan's coattails and the rest of the roster were just kinda there is basically wrong. You only need to see how much name recognition the rest of that roster still have to this day to see that. You only need to see how over the rest of the roster was to see that. Possibly it was that way in 85 and 86, but Vince is too clever to put all his eggs in one basket. He diversified his assets and made many many different stars, of which Hogan was only the brightest. I think the reading that says it's still just Hogan in 88, 89, 90, 91 is overly reductive. If that is to reject the consensus view on this board, then I reject it. It would also be great if whoever responds to this post could note the dates and years I'm mentioning and not reply with a list of cards from 1986 featuring George Wells.

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5530528 That. If you want to argue with any aspect of that post, for example, by saying that the 88 WWF roster wasn't deep or meaningful, then bring it on. I've made up my mind about 86 and 87, even if I think the JCP case for "meaningfulness" is rather overstated by some.

Hands-down best wrestling board on the net and been on fire for weeks now. All I'll say is that when I argue about stuff I'm looking to learn something and come to some sort of understanding even if we don't agree on everything by the end. I'm not into one-up-man-ship Macho bullshit and tend to tap out when I see that stuff coming. Very few here do that, which I like and appreciate, and I've been around long enough now to know who does and doesn't do it.

And miss that awesome AWA commentary? I am hoping I can download it like a regular podcast.

tomk, with respect, did you miss the stunning moment when conclusions were drawn and everyone moved on?

Found it, 6 pages in. Wow, that was a fun read. El-P vs. Phil Schneider with some entertaining handbags a bit further up. Anyway,

Would you say Honky was a more effective heel than HHH though?

Did Dylan ever do a Luger or Sting - HHH comparison? I'd be interested to see how Trips would rate in polls vs. either of them.

I like the Foley matches. And the matches with Rock (98) and Austin (01).

Could probably fill 20 hours of his opening promos from RAW.