JerryvonKramer

I have seen matches where Flair gets out wrestled and dominated by pending challengers before. Which ones? I can honestly only think of Luger at GAB 88. And that had the same basic story as Hogan vs. Bock 83 -- Flair had been ducking Luger for months. Although admittedly Luger was not insane over like Hogan was. I have complained plenty of times that I think Flair is giving too much to opponents -- that Jimmy Garvin match, for example, before the leg injury happens to Garvin, he is kicking.Flair's.Ass. And not just Garvin on top, he's properly killing Flair. I did have that problem with it. To me though, it's kind of forgiven by the turn around at the end. If you can point to many more examples when it's Flair getting very little to nothing then I'm happy to say that he was as guilty of it as Bock ... In fact, the only other one that springs to mind is years later when he's against Hogan in 94. There's one of those matches where Hogan just eats him. I'm not a fan of that match at all.

They are Ricky Morton or Jimmy Garvin or Ron Garvin though.

There's a lot more than just arguments between us four. El-P can bring it when he wants to and Dylan vs. El-P is a main event anywhere in the country when it happens. OJ is very indepently minded. There are many others too. About as much consensus as the People's Front of Judea. I think it's more a way of looking at wrestling and being more or less completely independent of WWE-hype-machine perpetuated nonsense (HBK as GOAT, HHH as a legend etc.), valuing psychology and actually looking at footage that sets this place apart from many other places.

I think we're definitely on different sides of this one. To me it always seems that Flair is cocky, gets surprised, and then either snaps and takes out the midcarder/jobber or calls the boys in. Either way, and I've seen a lot of Flair in those sorts of matches over the past year, there comes a point when he seems to say "enough of this shit now, I'm the man". The typical example is the Sam Houston match, but Will's 4 Horsemen set is full of these matches. Ok, from one point of view it's almost farcical that he's giving Italian Stallion or fucking Rocky King shine time, on the other at the end of the day he kicks their ass. In bigger card settings, he does similar things with more underdoggish opponents like Morton and Jimmy Garvin. If you can point me to Flair matches against obvious "lower" opponents where that moment doesn't come, point me to them. I haven't seen one. (NB. Pointing to WWF matches from 92 would be cheating, strictly NWA). With those particular Bock matches, there doesn't come a point where he snaps. And the net result to me is that he feels bitched out. I say that though I've just watched him go toe to toe with Wahoo and I've got a match paused right now where he's beating the shit out of Maddog Vachon. I like THIS Bock and I like that he has different dimensions. I just haven't liked his bitch champ performances so much.

genuine lol

Looking at the 77-79 results, it doesn't seem like Flair or Steamboat (or Greg Valentine) were guys who were going get you big crowds. They seemed to be drawing your bread and butter fans around 5-7,000, but only one show headlined by Flair and Steamboat goes over 10,000 and that had a pretty stacked undercard with Mulligan vs. Big John Studd and Jones vs. Orndorff for the Mid-Atlantic title. One show headlined by Flair-Steamboat goes as low as 3,000. Of the other two shows that go over 10,000, I don't believe it's Snuka vs. Tim Woods getting 11,000 people, it's the appearance of Andre in a battle royale. That has a been a constant, Andre on the card, 10,000+. The other one, is interesting: JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – November 23, 1978 (13,447) Steve Regal d. Frank Monte Don Kernodle d. Steve Muslin Richard Blood & Gary Young d. Mr. X #1 & Mr. X #2 Johnny Weaver & Jay Youngblood d. Brute Bernard & Swede Hanson Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Title: Tony Atlas d. Ken Patera © Ricky Steamboat d. Big John Studd Steel Cage Match for the US Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Blackjack Mulligan Is that because: 1. Atlas/ Patera, Steamboat/Studd is a hot undercard or 2. Because it was Thanksgiving?

KrisZ, the four major take aways from that that I can see are: 1. The shows headlined by the Andersons generally drew more than other shows. 2. Andre massively popped the gate whenever he was on a card. 3. In 1976 neither Flair nor Dusty were guys who were going to draw more than 10,000 to the Greensoboro Colesium alone. 4. People really cared about seeing the NWA champ, whether it was Brisco or Funk. That's my reading of it anyway. EDIT: (this is looking 74-76)

"I hear they've got a good graduate programme at West Texas State ..."

I'll just say this: if a student sent in an application to do a PhD on something wrestling related ... obviously I woudln't take them on myself, but I *would* see try to see if there's an appropriate supervisor out there somewhere who might be able to oversee a project like that. I think it's a little snobby to say that it simply "isn't worth the effort". Not when there are people at this moment doing theses on any number of very minor and niche topics. No one would bat an eyelid if someone wanted to do a study on the work of the Wachowski Brothers, for example. Are you saying all of pro wrestling history is worth less than The Matrix 3? ------------ Still, jdw, you've done enough to convince me that the line of enquiry is not worth pursuing. Meltzer must have been given false or exaggerated information about Scott's MACW run as booker.

One last thing: I really don't see why not. People do PhDs in much more fripperous things than pro wrestling. There's a huge amount of archival material there, there is original and even "pioneering" work to be done, it's part of American heritage, all the sorts of things funding bodies like. To be honest, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. I could see some more adventerous drama or performing arts departments taking it on. Or a cultural studies department. Stranger things have happened.

So jdw, thanks for that long reply. Let me get this right then: - You don't think Mid Atlantic went from being "just another office" to top #2 or #3 in the country by 1978? - You don't think Flair was a national star before his World title run? I just want to get those two things right. The quotation from Meltzer was really the thing that got me set on this line of enquiry. I haven't come across anyone else who really discusses it, it's skimmed over. If there's reason to believe Meltzer is just plain wrong on those two points, then there's no reason to pursue said line of enquiry.

Do you have links to these?

I can see that Mr. Sorrow, but I'm just saying it's not wildly outside of the bounds of possibility for a long-time fan to hold both views. I potched around last night listening to a few random wrestling podcasts from outside of this bubble, just to see what sort of stuff is out there. One of them was a "Top 10 guys of the past 40 years" discussion (name escapes me). There was a panel of 4 so, 40 picks in all. I recall Booker T being a number 8 pick. Every single person had HBK top 5. Sting was there. Someone had Inoki at 9. Andre was in there somewhere. Angle made most of the lists. Hennig as Mr. Perfect featured prominently. I stopped listening after a while because it was just too far away from where I am as a fan right now, but the point is that any one of those guys -- all of them seemed like long-time fans -- could stumble onto this place and seem like they were trolling without having a clue as to why.

Thanks for this jdw, that was pretty much what I thought the situation was. But the big difference between Flair and either Wahoo or Valentine is that Flair became a national star SOLEY through Mid Atlantic. The question would be for Wahoo and Valentine, were they national stars prior to their Mid Atlantic run? Based on what you've said there, the answer seems like it is yes. Another question would be, outside of WWWF, did anyone else from that era become a national star based on their work solely through one promotion? The example of the Andersons suggests not and they were just working Mid Atlantic and Georgia. Soooo ... That suggests something about Mid Atlantic changed from the early 70s to the time when Flair was on top 76-8. How else could Flair become a national star? ---- A side question would be, of course, how much did Valentine and Wahoo give Mid-Atlantic a sort of "rub" in the early 70s? Or, in other words, how much did them being there elevate the promotion?

No I just remember him being decent around then. I have no desire to revisit that era for some time and probably wont until I'm done with the 80s and early 90s, but as a fan in 1999 I remember him being good.

I'll just note that King Solomon who is from CA has also said he watched Lucha for years and also has the same negative opinion of it. Just saying that from a random sample of 2 people from the same area now, this view seems like it is fairly common, for right or wrong.

Was Bossman really as worthless during his run with The Corporation as is being made out here? I remember him being pretty good when he was wearing the black, thin and being mean to Big Show.

Loss - I picked them because it's not entirely clear when their prime is. Or at any rate, there are possible debates for each one. Booker T I picked for exactly that reason, when is his prime? Hogan I think therere's a real debate between his AWA run and 84-6 WWF. Similar situations for the others.

I'd prefer to see a FUC - Frequently Used Concepts Entries include: "Self-conscious epic" (El=P) "Stuff to do" (jdw) and most recently "Meaningless depth" (Dylan)

Of course I can see what he's saying. I guess my general criticism would be that Bock comes across as too weak when he's doing a Flair, in a way that Flair doesn't. You've seen more Bock than anyone khawk, is that true?

Is "Bock as Flair" being fair to Flair for those matches though?

If wrestling were an academic discipline I'd say there "is more work to be done" here. This much is known: - Mid Atlantic had a rise in stature during the mid- and late-70s. - Flair was their main star at that time. - Flair was a national star before he was world champ, previous stars of that territory were not national stars. - This coincided with several historically significant territories closing down elsewhere in the country. I'd expect to see Phd applications on the following sorts of research questions: - To what extent was 'nationalisation' taking place in the 70s (as opposed to the 80s)? - How "aggressive" was Jim Crockett Jr. as compared with Vince Jr. -- in other words, to what extent was the above phenomena driven by Vince's WWF and to what extent was it driven by Crockett? (pre-84) - If Mid-Atlantic does have a role to play in this phenomena, was it taking place simply as an historical or economic inevitability, or did something about the way wrestling was being booked and presented fundamentally change in the mid-late-70s? - How many eyeballs were seeing Mid Atlantic TV every week? Which regions could get it? - What was Ric Flair's role in all of the above? - Would it have made a difference if a breakout star like Flair had not been around at that time? These questions are important, I think, because they try to get to the bottom of a question that is seldom asked: what was Ric Flair's importance to Mid-Atlantic (and more broadly to the shape wrestling was taking) before he was NWA champ? For unstandable reasons the majortiy of studies skip over this period in wrestling to focus on the more exciting, more tangible and plain easier to see stuff that Vince was doing in the 80s. How Crockett came to be a major player just isn't given as much attention -- and when it is, it focuses on his role in gaining control of and booking the world title or his acquisitions in the 80s, not on what Mid-Atlantic were doing in the mid-late-70s to get him there. If people know more on this, or can link to things with the sort of detail I'm looking for, would be grateful if you could post. Honestly, that small statement from Meltzer on Scott in 89 is the most insightful thing I've found so far, and it seems to be based mainly on hearsay.

It's a shame that Mike Rotunda killed this thread stone cold dead. I'm resurrecting it. Booker T Sting Kurt Angle Hulk Hogan Steve Austin Bart Gunn

Sorry Will, move it there if you want.

I'll just quote you the bit on George Scott from Meltzer (WON 01/30/89, p. 1): I wanted to verify this with Tim Hornbaker's NWA book (which, incidentally, is structurally deficient to an almost intolerable level), but he's disappointingly vague on Mid Atlantic's rise and very light on detail. There's a mention of Jim Crockett Jr's "aggressive approach [which] expanded Crockett Promotions throughout the United States" (p. 302). I assume he's really thinking of the 80s there. At one point he calls George Scott a "clever booker" (p. 352). He calls Flair "the premier young star for Crockett" (p. 351) Not a lot of help. Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson's entry for Flair in The Heels is also very light on details, it merely says that Flair was young and hungry in the 70s who, according to Mike Mooneyham, "had world title written all over him" (p. 90). But as we move to the 80s it rather glibly says "as wrestling transitioned into a national business" (p.91) and prefers to focus on how Flair changed the heel/face dynamic than his role in said transition. I looked up Steamboat's entry in Heroes & Icons to see if anything was mentioned about what the feud did for Mid-Atlantic there, but despite quotations from George Scott and a look at the 70s feud it doesn't really say how they affected the promotion beyond saying the drew (p. 72). I do think there's a question mark over the extent to which Crockett as a territory grew in importance during the 70s and how big it was before that. There is no doubt that Flair was a national star by 1978. I guess the question is: were guys who were big in that territory before Flair's time -- like Johnny Weaver, Sandy Scott, or even Paul Jones -- national stars on that sort of level? Quite interested to know.